Hello paddlers,

I've been looking at used kevlar canoes the last few months. I stumbled upon some at an outfitter near Ely. They have some MN II kevlars from 2002 for sale. Apparently they are white gel coats. I don't know what this means really? They are being sold for $950. In my opinion it seems a little steep for a 11 year old canoe. What are your opinions on this canoe and price?

Thanks! Your thoughts are much appreciated.

Gel coat is the "hard candy coating" (colored) over the kevlar. These would be the flex core models and should probably weigh around 54 pounds. Age is not a big deal on a well cared for private canoe.....but it may be an issue on a livery canoe. That get coat may have taken a beating and be chipped and cracked. The price is not bad for a kevlar tandem canoe, but I certainly would have to see what the gel coat looked like. On the flip side, you can usually pick up a decent used skin coat canoe (no gel coat, ultra light, around 45 pounds) from various outfitters, refinished, for $1000 to $1200.
The weight is a concern for the money as is the condition of the gel coat IMO. I'd have to see them first. If they are in super shape, that's not a real bad price, maybe a touch high. It depends on what you want also. Gel coat boats need a little more care around the bumps and bruises (ROCKS!).

Gel coat is a polyester material that is put into the mold before any of the fabric that constitutes the hull. It cures like an epoxy and provides some abrasion resistance for the underlying hull resin/fabric matrix. It is pigmented (usually) and gives the outside of the hull its color.

Not all canoes are gel coated since gel coat does add a significant amount of weight. "Skin-coated" boats are made without gel coat. The mold is coated with a thin layer of resin before the cloth goes in. Skin coating saves weight but does not protect the underlying hull as well as gel coat.

Some boats (the Black Gold Bell canoes for example) utilized a clear gel coat that allows one to see through to the carbon blanket of the outer hull. Some folks think these boats are skin-coated but they are not.

I agree that the boats in question are very likely Flex-core (assuming they are indeed Kevlar) but Wenonah would gel coat Ultra-light boats on special order. It is conceivable that an outfitter would have ordered Kevlar ultralight boats with gel coat.

I would say that if these boats are in reasonably good condition $950 is a very good price for either a Flex-core or an Ultra-light MN II considering either would set you back over $2500 new. If the gel coat is oxidized (appears cloudy) but intact, you can generally restore the appearance by wet sanding from around 220 grit down to 1500 or 2000 grit, then applying a high quality polishing compound and going over the boat with an automotive buffer.

It's somewhat odd that an Outfitter would be turning over their livery after 10+ years, most outfitters will turn-over their livery after one or two seasons. It's also uncommon that they would stock gel-coated canoes, that are possibly something other than Ultra-light Kevlar construction.

It's possible to have a Wenonah canoe that's Kevlar Ultra-light construction AND have a gel-coat. The gel-coat will provide more abrasion resistance than a "skin-coat" canoe. The gel-coat will also retard the UV degradation more than a clear gel-coat or the "skin-coat". So I'm not sure it can be assumed that these 2002 Minnesota II's are the "Flex-Core" lay-up.

Additionally, Wenonah's "Flex-Core" construction essentially replaced the "Cross-Rib" and the "Center-Rib" construction. The "Cross-Rib" lay-up is similar to Souris River's "Cross-Rib" construction method.

I don't remember the exact year Wenonah phased-out the "Cross-Rib" and "Center-Rib" construction. So it's also possible the Outfitter's "Minnesota II" canoes could be "Cross-Rib" or "Center-Rib" construction. Although, it might have been around the year 2000 when Wenonah changed to the "Flex-Core" lay-up and dropped the "Cross-Rib" and "Center-Rib" lay-up construction.

Adding a gel-coat to a Kevlar Ultra-light canoe will add about five to eight pounds to the canoe's overall weight versus the "skin-coated" canoe. As you may know, a "skin-coat" is essentially no gel-coat, which shouldn't be confused with a clear gel-coat.

That said, a Kevlar Ultra-light canoe with a gel-coat, essentially negates the weight savings of the "skin-coat" Kevlar Ultra-light canoe, for the most part. Although depending on the pigment of the gel-coat, and the size of the canoe, you may save four or five pounds over the Kevlar "Flex-Core" lay-up. But a gel-coated Kevlar Ultra-light canoe won't be as tough as a Kevlar "Flex-Core" lay-up, because the Ultra-light construction still uses less Kevlar fabric than its "Flex-Core" counterpart. (In some cases, the Kevlar fabric may also be a lighter weave to achieve the lighter weight canoe as well.)

I agree with "cowdoc" that a well cared for canoe, that's privately owned for eleven years, is not a big deal. I have several old Sawyer canoes that are 25+ years old and are in mint condition. (They have also been stored indoors during their entire lifetime.) But an eleven year old rental canoe is another thing. Eleven years of rental use could render some badly abused boats.

The one point "cowdoc" makes about being more careful with a gel-coat boat versus a skin-coat" boat I don't follow though. A "skin-coat" boat really has no finish, so to speak. So when you slide into or over sharp rocks, you're almost immediately into the Kevlar fabric. As good as Kevlar is for tensile strength, it's very poor for abrasion, so the Kevlar fabric will essentially "fuzz up" when it's repeatedly abraded. In time, if not properly repaired, the exposed Kevlar fabric can actually wick moisture into the weave and add weight to the boat.

I personally prefer the Kevlar "Flex-Core" construction AND a white gel-coat for all of my canoes. Wenonah's white gel-coat, (Ivory actually), is the lightest of the "pigmented" gel-coats. Also, because all scratches essentially scratch white, the white, or Ivory gel-coat does not show scratches as much as the darker gel-coats, for what it's worth. A gel-coated canoe, especially white, is also much easier to repair cosmetically than the "skin-coats".

$950.00 is not too bad of a price for a well-cared for eleven year old, privately owned Kevlar canoe. But, I definitely would not buy these canoes sight unseen. After eleven years of livery use, and the fact these canoes have most likely been stored outside, these "Minnesota II's" could be quite ragged at this point in time.

BTW, as far as the design of the "Minnesota II", I personally think it's one of the best tandem tripping canoes made IMHO. The Minnesota II is fast, seaworthy, and will carry two-weeks worth of gear with ease. Highly recommended!

Hans Solo

Year 2000 or so sounds about right for Wenonah phasing out cross-rib and center-rib construction methods. I have a 2004 catalog that indicates that they were gone by that time.

But I am pretty sure that they never made the Minnesota II in center-rib construction and I am doubtful that they made it in cros-rib (although I could be wrong about that). The Minnesota II first appeared in Wenonah's catalog for nation-wide sales in 1993. Wenonah made them before 1993 but only sold them in Minnesota. The 1993 Wenonah catalog does not describe a MN II built using either cross-rib or center-rib construction techniques.

Both the Minnesota II and Wenonah's Odyssey derived from Gene Jensen's Whitewater II, an 18 1/2' downriver racing tandem significantly deeper and a little narrower than the MN II (which is still made by Clipper Canoe).

I quite agree with HansSolo that the MN II is an extraordinarily fine tripping tandem for flat water. It doesn't turn quickly and some find the bow paddling station a bit cramped, but it is fast and will handle a big load. I also agree that a gel coated hull is preferable to a skin coated one if you anticipate any significant abrasion (which rental canoes are sure to receive).

quote kyleyewongster: "Hello paddlers,

I've been looking at used kevlar canoes the last few months. I stumbled upon some at an outfitter near Ely. They have some MN II kevlars from 2002 for sale. Apparently they are white gel coats. I don't know what this means really? They are being sold for $950. In my opinion it seems a little steep for a 11 year old canoe. What are your opinions on this canoe and price?

Thanks! Your thoughts are much appreciated."

Kyle,

What outfitter are you dealing with?

Thanks very much for your opinions so far!

quote wannabeoutthere:
Kyle,
What outfitter are you dealing with?"

Kawishiwi

Wenonah's "Center-Rib" construction was somewhat of a rarity in their tandem canoes prior to the "Flex-Core" lay-up, so it's unlikely the 2002 Minnesota II's are constructed that way, as "pblanc" mentioned, but you never know.

I own a 1980 Wenonah Jensen 18 that actually has the Kevlar "Center-Rib" lay-up, which is even more strange. (I purchased my Jensen 18 used for about $400.00 in the late 80's, so I had no choice in its construction.) I also own a 1988 Wenonah "Odyssey" that's the "Cross-Rib" construction. (There was no "Flex-Core" lay-up in the 80's.)

The "Center-Rib" lay-up was considered the "whitewater" lay-up at the time, because it allowed for more hull flexing than the other lay-up options. (The "Center-Rib" lay-up was fairly common in Wenonah solo canoes though and was considered the "Expedition" lay-up, for what it's worth.)

I also own a Wenonah Jensen C1W solo that has the "Center-Rib" lay-up. But unlike the tandems, the solos constructed with the "Center-Rib" lay-up did not have the shock absorbers installed from the thwarts, which were standard on the tandem "Center-Rib" models.

Regardless of what you decide Kyle, it would be interesting to hear more if you decide to examine, or acquire one of the 2002 Wenonah "Minnesota II's".

Hans Solo

Hans....my take on Gel coats in the BW goes beyond abrasions and deals more with bigger bumps that lead to cracks and chipping. The skin coat boats seem easier to refinish after some wear, but a badly damaged Gel coat becomes more of a project. I've had a few of each boat.....just my .02

Yes, I have a Tuff-Weave WWC1 in center rib construction.

Wenonah tended to offer that type of construction for boats that might be intended for river use. The Jensen 18 was/is a popular Citizen's Class downriver racer and their Odyssey was the Whitewater II descendant designed for river use so they did offer center rib construction for those models.

I guess they figured that people would not buy the hard-tracking Minnesota II for river use but would go for the Odyssey instead.

I definitely wouldn't buy a canoe from kawishiwi without seeing it in person first. I stumbled upon a used Q16 on their site last year and all i can say is they have a strange way of doing business. I'd bet the MN II's are beat to shit, maybe show up in person and offer him $650?

quote pblanc: "Yes, I have a Tuff-Weave WWC1 in center rib construction.

Wenonah tended to offer that type of construction for boats that might be intended for river use. The Jensen 18 was/is a popular Citizen's Class downriver racer and their Odyssey was the Whitewater II descendant designed for river use so they did offer center rib construction for those models.

I guess they figured that people would not buy the hard-tracking Minnesota II for river use but would go for the Odyssey instead."

Not to belabor the point, but during the 80's, and a few years beyond, Wenonah offered the previously discussed models in ALL lay-ups, except the marathon canoes. (The solo canoes did not have a "Cross-Rib" lay-up option.)

During my five years at Rutabaga in the 80's, the "Cross-Rib" construction was probably the most popular choice for construction, for both Kevlar and "Tuff-Weave".

Although a customer could special order the "Center-Rib" lay-up on most any "recreational" hull, it was rarely done. That's why I stated that my Jensen 18, with the "Center-Rib" construction, was odd. For the Midwest market, the Jensen 18 was usually ordered or bought with the "Cross-Rib" or Kevlar Ultra-light lay-up. We actually referred to the Kevlar Ultra-light lay-up as a "Kev-Core" boat at the time.

If people were truly using the Jensen 18 as a "Citizen Racer", they almost always purchased the "J18" in the Kevlar Ultra-light lay-up. But, I ordered and sold a few that were "Tuff-weave" with the Ultra-light core, for those who wanted a stiffer hull, but didn't want to spend the money on a Kevlar Ultra-light canoe. (BTW, the "Tuff-weave" Ultra-light lay-up weighed about the same as the Kevlar "Cross-Rib" or "Center-Rib" boats, but the hull was stiffer.)

As far as repair ease of "skin-coat" vs. "gel-coat", I can't really speak to that. I rarely required repairs to any of my composite canoes, save the "skin-coat" canoes. When I did need repairs, mostly cosmetic, I had a local boat repair shop do the work. The were very experienced and repaired many of the sailboats and power boats in the area I live. So I left it up to the "professionals". They were reasonably priced and usually had the repairs done in three days or less.

I can say this though, even with all the different boats I've owned, or presently own, I have had only two canoes with skins coats. Despite my best efforts, I became tired of always dropping my "skin- coat" boats off at the aforementioned boat repair shop to have the stems re-geled after most every "Quetico-Superior" canoe trip.

So "pblanc", if you're willing and able to mess with repairing your skin coat boats, more power to you. But, I prefer to have my canoes & kayaks as maintenance free as possible. I find having a gel-coat provides that for me. I generally "wet foot it" when landing my boats in "Quetico-Superior" anyway. I additionally add a few strips of duct tape to the stems to further protect the gel-coat. But, if I'm going to do a river, or some other abusive waters, I'll grab one of my "Royalex" canoes.

Hans Solo

BTW, the page below is from one of Wenonah's Catalogs, circa 1987.

quote oldirtybassturd: "I definitely wouldn't buy a canoe from kawishiwi without seeing it in person first. I stumbled upon a used Q16 on their site last year and all i can say is they have a strange way of doing business. I'd bet the MN II's are beat to shit, maybe show up in person and offer him $650?"

4 years ago when we bought our used canoe from a different Ely Outfitter we looked at the ones at Kawishiwi Lodge and they were in very rough shape so we didn't buy one from them.

Last year in Aug. when we were renting one of their cabins for the week I checked out the canoes they had for sale and once again they were in very rough shape.

We had a great time in their cabin and I thought the owners were great and did a great job running the place. But, I would not buy one of their used canoes unless it was for a very low price.

quote HansSolo: "


So "pblanc", if you're willing and able to mess with repairing your skin coat boats, more power to you. But, I prefer to have my canoes & kayaks as maintenance free as possible. I find having a gel-coat provides that for me. I generally "wet foot it" when landing my boats in "Quetico-Superior" anyway. I additionally add a few strips of duct tape to the stems to further protect the gel-coat. But, if I'm going to do a river, or some other abusive waters, I'll grab one of my "Royalex" canoes.

Hans Solo

BTW, the page below is from one of Wenonah's Catalogs, circa 1987.

"

Well, I do paddle composite boats on rivers and sometimes even in whitewater.

But I don't own any skin-coated boats. I could see having one if I were a Marathon racer, or for a boat used solely as a flat water exercise machine, but for my money gel coat is well worth the weight penalty for a canoe seeing general use.

I have purchased used canoes with badly damaged gel coat. Rather than attempting to repair the gel coat, or pay to have the boat re-coated, I have generally sanded off most of the damaged gel, filled in any divots or chips with epoxy, and then painted the bottom up to a 4" waterline, or the whole boat if need be. Sure paint will get scratched off the bottom but if you use a readily available spray paint it is easy to do periodic touch-ups.

I hear ya' "pblanc". Sounds like you're more of a "project guy" than I am. I just don't have the time and patience for many projects these days, other than maintaining my house. I envy those individuals that can turn a "pig's ear into a silk purse", as the saying goes. :-)

My last reply was somewhat misleading about my intended boat use. I also use my composite boats on rivers up to Grade II. I almost always use my Kevlar "Center-Rib" C1W on the Namekagon and St. Croix Rivers, as well as the Ozark rivers, (i.e., the Current River, Jacks Forks, and the Eleven Point River). That said, there are times that some of my favorite rivers can get real scrappy, especially when river levels are below average. In that case, I grab one of my Royalex canoes.

But back to the original post, as "ducks" and "olddirtybassturd" have noted, the canoes that Kyle is considering sound pretty ragged. Then again, I think most of us here assumed that given the fact these canoes have had eleven years of rental use. In which case, $950.00 is absurd.

I like "ducks" suggestion though. After visually inspecting the canoes Kawishiwi is selling, offer them $650.00 tops, provided they're at least structurally sound. Anything more than $650.00 would be a bad value IMHO.

If Kyle is a "project guy" like "pblanc", the canoes might be worth a little time and effort to "spiff" them up, provided they're not too trashed and/or if they can be had for a reasonable price.

Hans Solo

Thanks for the input everyone. I think I am going to pass on the canoes from Kawishiwi and continue the search. (I am not a project guy yet although I'd like to someday) After I put more thought into it and reading your posts it makes me wonder what kind of canoe would fit my needs. My main reason for purchasing one is to fish out of. I'd like to use it on small lakes and rivers around the Twin Cities. However I would also like to use it on the 2-3 BWCA trips I take each year. So I need a canoe that is lighter/tripping worthy but also good for fishing. The top end of my price range is ~$1500 but I'd like to stay closer to $1000.

Are you planning to paddle it solo, tandem, or both?

Tandem

Good comments on this thread. I haven't seen many kevlar boats with gel coat. The upper Midwest is a great place for kevlar with all those portages.

I mentioned in a earlier post that kevlar boats can be subject to deterioration in UV light. My Sawyer Charger literally started to fall apart after a long life. A ten year lifespan with an outfitter probably would see more use by far than the average person would subject a boat to. Definitely inspect any of those boats carefully before making an offer. In the land of Kevlar boats I would pass on those.