this is one of don elliott's beavers landing for an in water pickup on davies lake in the northwest corner of the wabakimi. we had mapped and cleared portages from savant lake north to davies following the savant river, largely in the caribou forest until finally crossing into the park and flying out from davies. we had a 110# woman in our 4 person group who forever changed my perceptions of a woman's capabilities in the bush. there's some stories to tell in there.

this beaver is almost as old as i am. the flight in was pretty exciting because our pilot stood this old plane up on the wings port and starboard to get a good look at the landing conditions below and to make sure we were coming down in the right location-cool experience from the right seat.

this plane is a contrast to elliott's turbine otter which we also flew on two weeks later. the otter is larger and a real hot rod compared to the beaver. the turbine conversion costs 750k and the engine now makes 785hp. chuck has some photos of that plane.

been on these float planes many times, and i don't think i will ever get tired of it.

Dave,

Here are a few photos. One is the lady from Thunder Bay that you referenced and Don's beaver and Otter. I sent you guys a couple days ago three CD's of photos for personal use. I didn't sent them all, but there's enough to give you a sense of the trip.

I still have been working on the trip report when I have time. That's what I was doing when I saw your post, but now it's time to go to the club. I was going to go biking but it's raining.

Chuck


CIIcanoe.com CIIcanoe Canoes Wabakimi

thanks chuck. that's our "canoe girl" and she was smiling just like that after crossing 4500m of bog portage. i have to admit that i wasn't smiling after crossing that portage. your pic of the beaver at mattice is the other end of the flight in my pic. your third pic is the otter the day after the gale-don sure likes to fly that plane-can't blame him.

don was scheduled to fly walter slipperjack's sister(rose)and four others in to whitewater first nation the next day on the otter. rose's camp was the newer one on the far left of walter's and up the bank.

looking forward to your CDs. we've only been out a few weeks from that adventure, but time moves so fast that it already seems a while ago.

Chuck
Got the CD's yesterday. Thanks. I will be shipping mine out this weekend or Monday.

got mine. i think i'll just throw my camera in the lake. great series. i had to think about where a few were taken. now that we've had the teaser, cough up the other 750.

were these taken with the big rig or are they a mix of the two?

...and forget the paddling tutorial next time, we'll just jump to photography class.

i can't figure out why my boat always looks out of trim in those photos. must be some kind of digital illusion.

There are pictures from both cameras on each Cd.

Chuck

dick, got your CD. great series. you're a stealth photo guy-i don't remember seeing your camera out that much. great shots.

Thanks. Too bad the battery died at Best Island.

Just came out on Saturday 9/13. We flew into white water on the otter pictured in Cllcanoe’s post above a week earlier. We paddled out little caribou to a road. Fall colors are starting to show everywhere
MagicPaddler

MP, would be interested in seeing a report on the east side of the park. used to go in on the east side many years ago, but now west and north.

did you put together your own route info or use another source? any other paddlers in there? fishing? caribou sightings?

Jdrocks
I was part of Phil Cotton’s last trip of the year. We were taking a rout worked out by him. We were clearing portages and camp sights. All of the portages were measured and marked on his map. He plans on having a map book out by next spring that will cover (I think) ¼ of the park. I don’t know how to compare the east with the west side of the park. This is my first trip to that park. Comparing it to Quetico there are 2 things that stood out. In the morning every thing is wet from the dew. The bottom side of the tarp will have a pint of water hanging on it. The other thing is that because of the thin soil trees never grow old they just fall over and die when they get large. There are 4 times as many trees dead and fallen over than standing and growing.

MP, i was on trip 11 with phil this season. the guys on this forum met my plane when we flew back in from davies lake on the northwest corner of the park. then the four of us went back in for another 15 days the next morning.

as far as the blowdown situation, i guess i wouldn't say 4 to 1 in the boreal forest, but the potential is there if you get caught in a big wind. that's why we carry two pair axes and saws-and not those little toy kind.

where exactly did that trip go? i expected phil to be farther east.

Jd
We started on Whitewater Lake and came out little caribou. We paddled to a road and got picked up there. That is on the east side of the park.
Magicpaddler

we used to put in at the end of that road. the old guy that owned the fish camp let us leave our vehicles in his lot. a few years ago i drove out there and met the new owners from wisconsin. when i asked if it would be ok to do the same thing, she said "are you crazy?". you must have been picked up at the bridge on the caribou lake road.

Yes we were picked up at the bridge. Don Elliott’s crew picked us up and we repacked at his place. It was a long drive back to Thunder Bay to get showers and get in to clean clothes.

well, after being a day late flying out due to weather in 2008, now in 2009 we're a day late going in for the same reason. this beaver had just dropped us for an in water start way out west and was now back in the air headed east to the base at mattice lake.

i love flying around in these things.

you need to be organized because once the beaver is on the water you're going to be paddling within minutes. the pilot isn't interested in waiting around while you take your time getting started.

Does anyone have a good estimate of a cost per person or mile on a float plane. I really would like to have some ballparks on this, if you know? I am contemplating a solo with a fly in and am guessing at a number, but if someone has a good idea, please share.
SunCatcher

Let me check my notes from Kesselring's presentation - otherwise maybe email him via this site. I think his trip was pretty recent. They should also have some rates posted at Bryce Hyer's Armstrong outfitter web site.

Don Elliott at Mattice Lake Outfitters provides float plane services for the Wabakimi Project. i use Mattice Lake and highly recommend them. you can call their office and get an estimate on flight cost going in, out, or both. if you're flying out, you should have a sat phone to coordinate your pickup. flying at least one leg in that area gives you a lot more flexibility in your route planning.

with so much info available on paddling the Wabakimi, i don't understand why paddlers get locked into using Bruce Hyer's operation at Armstrong. the couple that run the place for Hyer are certainly nice, but they're B&B people, not paddlers.

Don't know if anyone's "locked in" to using Hyer's, but his web site certainly has the search keys set right and he's out there stumping for the park at every opportunity (he's a politician too)... an easy place to go for quick info. I've no personal knowledge of their quality or services and cannot give a personal recommendation one way or another.

Just out of curiosity, what can one expect to pay for a round-trip float plane trip in and out of Wabakimi? How long is the average flight? How are they at getting canoes in, assuming they can be tied to the floats? How many people and how much gear per flight?

Just gathering information should we decide to take a trip up there.

I asked at Copia. Phil Cotton said that about 500 of their fee is for plane - which is 3 in and 3 out on same trip. At Woodland Caribou, most lakes for up to 3 people were around $600 (in or out, not both). I just asked what it would cost to be flown form Gunflint to Beaverhouse in Q - thinking about a cross park trip - $900 for two.

All of these trips seem to be in the 25 to 40 minute range.

So, what are less expensive options to get into Wabakimi and WCP that don't leave your vehicle exposed to vandalism?

You can park at an outfitter and shuttle in or train in. The fee should not be prohibitive.

there seems to be a lot of concern about vandalism, has anybody actually experienced it?

I have not. But I have always left my car at the outfitters, so I am not qualified to speak to the issue. There are some other threads that have reports of vandalism at some of the BWCA EPs. As far north as Wabakimi, I would be pretty surprised to learn of such things. There are just so few people up there...

it has never been safe to leave a vehicle in the bush at any of the possible access points into the park, including off 599 to the west. i saw a small SUV with racks parked at the Little Caribou access (bridge)the last time i was on that road, an ill advised practice. i don't even like to leave a vehicle at the train station overnight. pay the nominal fee for a shuttle.

there may be relatively few people around, but there are plenty with bad intentions. that's just the way it is. it's no coincidence that there's a very active OPP station there.

wow!, that is a rather harsh statement. It is my understanding there is a training center for either Ontario police or the Mounties in Armstrong, that is the reason there are many there, not that it is actually needed due to crime.

I recall several decades ago that it was said it was unsafe to leave a vehicle in the NW area of Quetico, the Indians would vandalize was the claim, never seen it, experienced it, or heard of it happening, but to hear some people you were risking being scalped if you used the entry. I attributed it to people who just didn't like Indians.

I am aware of a high profile individual who will remain nameless who makes similar claims about Wabakimi, but yet I have never heard of it actually happening to anyone. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but if it were as bad as people say, you'd think you would hear something about it from the victim.

quote ZaraSp00k: "I attributed it to people who just didn't like Indians."

there's your "wow" moment.


why don't you start a new thread on the subject and beat it to death over there.

Well perhaps I would if someone hadn't already started it here. Show me a thread where someone has experienced vandalism in Woodland Caribou or Wabakimi. In all my years I cannot recall anybody that has experienced it, again doesn't prove it doesn't happen, but if it happened as often as some say, you'd think people would have said something.

I suppose the outfitters have a vested interest in having people take their shuttle, but that would be awful if they were "scaring" people into it with false info...

I was told by a certain Armstrong outfitter that if I wanted to access Wabakimi via. the train station in Savant Lake that my tires would likely not survive the trip up 599 because it's in such terrible condition.

I don't know the condition of that road, but it sure felt like a scare tactic at the time.

Folks there is a party spot at the Little Caribou put in. Its wiser not to leave a vehicle there.

I have been mugged by a drunk in Armstrong back in 1991 so lets not be naive. Also last trip one was passed out in front of EJ's. OPP came and scooped up.

Outfitters do not have a vested interested in ripping you off. Mine(Don Elliott) does not charge parking. They do charge (and rightly so..it takes time for a shuttle if needed)

Vandalism in Woodland Caribou is a problem too. The culprit is bears. Check with the MNR in Red Lake for proof. Last year I got a thank you note from Park office for leaving no food at all and locking everything else in the cab..not the less secure cap.

quote yellowcanoe: "...I have been mugged by a drunk in Armstrong back in 1991 so lets not be naive. Also last trip one was passed out in front of EJ's. OPP came and scooped up..."

drugs and alcohol continue to be a huge problem across the north, and the incident rate gets higher the farther into the bush you travel. Armstrong, with it's paved access, is not really remote but the problems are still the same as when the road was gravel all the way. the problems are not confined to NW Ontario, it's everywhere.

now i wear the two First Nations Tribal Council pins that were given to me if i'm way out there, i tend to think they offer some protection.

we had been stuck at Mattice Lake for hours, then a whole day, fog, rain, and low ceiling, waiting for Don Elliott to decide if he was going to put planes in the air. the Beaver that would take us west was idle at the end of the dock.



if you had to be stuck there and have a fishing license, walleye fishing is pretty fair right from Elliott's dock.



the weather cleared, but the Beaver flew a party out to one of Elliott's fish camps first, then returned for us. we were anxious to get moving, miles of paddling scheduled from our drop off point.



our gear was staged and ready to be loaded. the pack on the left had a saw in the right pocket and an axe in the left. next time i'm going to use both my 60L barrels with the Headstrong harness.



the pilot cinched the Q18.5 down on the float. someone said that the float plane services won't fly that model canoe, too big...hmmmm, guess what i say to that.

Before you get too testy did you check other float plane operators? It does vary.. The old adage about ask and don't assume.

Don has been around a very long time. He vets his pilots thoroughly and yes they are good with an 18.5. But don't assume that everyone does.

Not everyone is using a Beaver.

Here is a sampling of the tangled web of external load transport

quote yellowcanoe: "Before you get too testy did you check other float plane operators? It does vary.. The old adage about ask and don't assume."

testy? what's with that?

this is a float plane thread in the Wabakimi subsection of this forum, not a plane thread in the Nunavut section over on myccr. we're talking short hop convenience flights in the Little North, not long range required flights to some Arctic lake or river where you might have to use a Pakboat. Don did say he would fly us in or pick us up well beyond his normal range as long as we were willing to work with his schedule, and he was standing next to my boat when he said it.

yes, this same boat has been on the floats of a non Elliott Beaver, they didn't blink either. no, i haven't asked every possible operator flying the area, i've stayed with Mattice lately, just like you.

Don Elliott's DHC-3 Otter approaching the dock...



i'm not sure how old the air frame on this Otter is, but DeHavilland started production on these planes back in the early '50s. originally equipped with a P&H radial making 5-600HP, this plane has the Czech turbine conversion with 875HP. i don't know the percentage of Otters that have been converted, but i haven't seen the radial engined version lately. easy to tell the difference, the radial Otter had the snub nose look of the radial engined Beaver, except bigger. the Czech turbine with installation and related work costs about $750,000.

Bombardier had acquired DeHavilland and sold the rights to the Otter, the old blueprints were digitized, and the plane is back in production, including a twin turbo prop version.

the plane is a hot rod on floats, you won't find anyone but Don in the left seat.

I flew in on a Beaver, out on Don's Otter. It is a Cadillac compared to an old pickup. You could feel the Beaver work to get up, and was loud as heck, the Otter much more quiet, and spacious, comfortable as any commercial flight. I felt like a passenger on the Otter, on the Beaver I was just more baggage.

quote ZaraSp00k: "I flew in on a Beaver, out on Don's Otter. It is a Cadillac compared to an old pickup."

both planes are unique STOL aircraft, i wouldn't slight the flying experience in either, but of the two, the Beaver has more of the old time flavor of a different era. predating Otter production by about 5 years, the Beaver is usually older than the passengers flying in it, pilot too. i've landed places in Beavers that i wasn't too sure about as we circled looking things over. tannin colored water can conceal things that will hurt you, there's great trust placed in the pilot.

if flying in Don's Otter, and you can jump into the right hand seat without provoking a fist fight with your fellow passengers, take the opportunity. using the intercom headset, you can talk with Don for the duration of the flight. old time bush pilot, you can discuss planes, flying, fires, water levels, fishing, paddling, moose population, area development and economy, park policy, First Nation issues, and all the rest...it's like taking a university level course with the head of the department as your one-on-one instructor. life does not present these opportunities every day.

what, you don't like old pickups? :)

I was just contrasting the two, I enjoyed both flights
the only way in as far as I'm concerned is by Beaver, gets you in the proper mood, it's a trip back in time
but coming out, I'm already tired, so gimme an Otter.

if only Don had a flight attendant aboard, short skirt, serving beer, ... :)

quote ZaraSp00k: "if only Don had a flight attendant aboard, short skirt, serving beer, ... :)"

never had a stewardess, but i've put away some beer, drank a little whiskey too. we always had a designated flier along.

Maurina was our pilot in 2011.

There's some great pictures of the Turbo Otter in the shop getting repaired after being cracked up and partially submerged this summer.

Go to Mattice Lake Outfitters facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mattice-Lake-Outfitters/63427664366?ref=mf

Who moved the rock? One of Uncle Phil's Jesus rocks?

There has to be a little more to the story..maybe best found out in person. I wonder if Don was flying..never seen anyone else at the controls of the Otter.

They are normally really good about scoping out rocks...and at one of his outposts.. this is a headscratcher. I would have liked to see pics of the Otter being hauled out too, but these are good.

quote HBB: "I was told by a certain Armstrong outfitter that if I wanted to access Wabakimi via. the train station in Savant Lake that my tires would likely not survive the trip up 599 because it's in such terrible condition.

I don't know the condition of that road, but it sure felt like a scare tactic at the time. "

I don't think the outfitter knew what he was talking about. I've driven that road up past Pickle Lake with no problem. Pickle Lake is far beyond Savant Lake.

As for leaving a vehicle anywhere in the bush, don't do it, no matter what. It is too tempting for some people... A buddy and I put in at Little Caribou many years ago. After dropping our gear off, we drove to the OPP station in Armstrong, parked my car there, and had one of the OPP officers drive us to our put-in site. My car was just fine when I returned more than three weeks later.

As for Indian Reserves being dangerous places farther in the bush, I would disagree. Road access wrecks native culture due to the easy access to alcohol and drugs. Remote communities always seemed safe to me. I've felt TOTALLY safe in places like Kingfisher Lake and Fort Severn and FAIRLY safe in Ogoki and Fort Albany. Time may have changed this--I don't know.

quote yellowcanoe:


There has to be a little more to the story..maybe best found out in person. I wonder if Don was flying..never seen anyone else at the controls of the Otter."

Don leased out the Otter and one of his Beavers for the 2012 season. things didn't work out too well.

Canuckistan has faced a nationwide shortage of pilots, both fixed wing and rotor, for years and it may have caught up with him, especially given the additional float qualifications. those guys are in demand coast-to-coast, name your price.

Don must have a plan, since he has just significantly expanded his outpost camp operation.

quote arctic: "Time may have changed this--I don't know."

First Nation communities without road access are facing the same problems as those that do.

same thing in Alaska.

plenty of theories, but it's difficult to understand all the issues.

quote jdrocks: "

quote yellowcanoe: There has to be a little more to the story..maybe best found out in person. I wonder if Don was flying..never seen anyone else at the controls of the Otter."

Don leased out the Otter and one of his Beavers for the 2012 season. things didn't work out too well.

Canuckistan has faced a nationwide shortage of pilots, both fixed wing and rotor, for years and it may have caught up with him, especially given the additional float qualifications. those guys are in demand coast-to-coast, name your price.

Don must have a plan, since he has just significantly expanded his outpost camp operation."

Thanks for the info!

quote jdrocks: "plenty of theories, but it's difficult to understand all the issues."

From reading Canadian newspapers I will not be leaving my vehicle unattended again, there seems to be genuine animosity out there, and it seems to be building. Kind of reminds me of the early 60’s in the US.

My last experience has me rethinking things for a different reason. I had parked well off the road, hidden in fact, and experienced no problem. However, I arrived back late and after loading the vehicle up and driving away I realized I was way too tired to drive so I decided to take a nap. I wasn’t even on the main logging road, I was on a side spur parked off to the side so I figured I was safe. I woke up groggy to the sound of a logging truck, luckily I had left the key in the ignition, the truck was turning onto the road I was on and as he turned I realized if he didn’t change his turn he was going to run over the front of my vehicle with his rear tire. I managed to get started and moved enough so that his rear wheel just missed me, I swear to god the guy was trying to hit me, he actually accelerated and then let off the gas after he would have hit me. I always knew that these guys drive like they own the road and you have to avoid them, but this was ridiculous. My vehicle is silver and the canoe on top is Kevlar, I doubt he failed to see me.

quote jdrocks: "

quote yellowcanoe: There has to be a little more to the story..maybe best found out in person. I wonder if Don was flying..never seen anyone else at the controls of the Otter."

Don leased out the Otter and one of his Beavers for the 2012 season. things didn't work out too well.

Don must have a plan, since he has just significantly expanded his outpost camp operation."

Don and Annette indeed had a plan that involved his retirement from flying coupled with a significant expansion of their outpost camp holdings. The 'plan' actually involved two separate events that both occurred prior to commencement of operations last year.

The first phase of the ‘plan’ was the lease of the Turbo Otter + one of the Beaver to a float plane operator based on Highway 599 west of the park. The other Beaver was retained for service flights to their own outpost camps but downgraded from ‘commercial’ to ‘private’ which meant it could no longer be used to carry paying passengers.

The second phase of the 'plan' was the purchase of five outposts + the MacKenzie Lake air base from Armstrong Air. Two of the outpost cabins were considered more than what was needed and were stripped and burned. Improvements were made to the other three. The owner’s home on the MacKenzie Lake property was converted to a guest cabin and the office converted to a second overnight accommodation facility for clients.

According to Don’s Facebook page, the Otter is now in Geraldton being repaired after an unfortunate accident on Whiteclay Lake. It is not clear yet whether Don will resume flying or whether the lease agreement will continue in effect or whether it will be negotiated with a third party.

"As for leaving a vehicle anywhere in the bush, don't do it, no matter what. It is too tempting for some people."

I am often asked about the advisability of leaving an unattended vehicle parked on a remote forest access road. I cite the following true incident to explain why this is not a good practice.

Four experienced canoeists parked their hatch-back SUV on the west side of the park some 80km up Road 702 from Highway 599. They returned two weeks later to discover their battery was flat. The heavily-tinted windows of their vehicle had failed to reveal that somehow during the unloading of their gear, the pressure-sensitive interior overhead light had inadvertently been switched on. Two members of the party set off on foot to seek assistance.

It was only by chance that the Abitibi-Bowater (now Resolute) area operations manager happened along to discover the exhausted, bug-bitten hikers who had, by now, covered only 15km and run out of water. He drove them to Savant Lake where they purchased a new battery and hired someone to drive them back to their vehicle. They arrived home four days late and one of the party lost his job for the unexplained absence.

The moral of the story is that anyone planning to visit the Wabakimi area should appreciate the wisdom and practicality of leaving vehicle(s) in safe keeping and be prepared to pay for road shuttles to/from their insertion/extraction points.

I agree. it is a lot cheaper to pay for a shuttle than to risk damge to vehicle or dead battery.

quote ZaraSp00k:"I always knew that these guys drive like they own the road..."

you didn't say where this happened, but if you were in an "access by permit only" area, he had a right to be there, you didn't. this would apply to many logging roads around Wabakimi, for instance.

i was run off the road by a Hydro Quebec vehicle in northern Quebec, the driver making a statement "we really do own this road".

Float planes to cars. It is posted here in my state that logging trucks have the right of way on timber roads. You can translate this to "they are always in the right". As they are hauling some 125 tons at fifty mph this makes sense.

They are like tankers on the Great Lakes.. limited maneuverability.

So wherever I am on a bush road, I assume there will be logging trucks.

Yeah I have had pucker power moments and found that you can indeed downshift in to reverse at speed. And the clutch lived. So did I.

quote yellowcanoe: "Float planes to cars..."

wasn't in a car, and the vehicle that nearly put me in the ditch wasn't a log truck. no logging permitted above 52N.

i was on my way to the Air Saguenay float plane base at Caniapiscau, a pair of turbined Otters tied up at their docks.



the weather was very poor, and the caribou herd was almost three weeks farther north than normal. basically, their flight schedule was upside down. Air Saguenay has something like 30 planes on floats, and stay very busy, especially with the increase in a full range of commercial activity in the bush.

just getting to Caniapiscau entails over 800 miles of gravel road across boreal country, you have to really want to get there...and back.

I was referring to Zara Spooks post.

quote jcavenagh: "I agree. it is a lot cheaper to pay for a shuttle than to risk damge to vehicle or dead battery."

Most outfitters will provide free parking for your vehicle(s) if you purchase pre- and/or post-trip overnight accommodation, fishing licences, camping permits, souvenirs, etc. or hire them to provide road or air shuttle service(s) to/from your insertion/extraction points. Such arrangements should be negotiated prior to arrival.

Unlike the BWCAW or Quetico, Wabakimi has no defined access points with daily entry quotas nor are there any long-term parking areas at or near most popular launch points. In fact, no roads lead directly to the park itself. Unless you use VIA Rail to access canoe routes along the CNR right-of-way, you must paddle across Crown land waters to reach the park from remote launch points located along area forest access roads or Highway 527 (to Armstrong) or Highway 599 (to Pickle Lake).

In Northern Ontario, forest access roads are constructed on Crown land by licensed forest industry interests. Most of these roads may be used by the general public; a few are closed to vehicular traffic under authority of the Public Lands Act. In any case, one should keep in mind that these roads are primarily designed for, and used by, heavy timber hauling trucks. Their presence on these roads and their lack of manoeuverability should be respected.

quote HBB: "I was told by a certain Armstrong outfitter that if I wanted to access Wabakimi via. the train station in Savant Lake that my tires would likely not survive the trip up 599 because it's in such terrible condition.

I don't know the condition of that road, but it sure felt like a scare tactic at the time. "

I drove that road last year(2015). It is paved at least as far as Savant Lake and can be travelled at 60MPH with no problem.
(I am just re-reading all these old threads.)