Does anyone have experience with Graphite or Carbon fiber (both also using Kevlar) Canoes?

I like the black canoe look and am looking at a Black Lite Northwind or a Graphite MN II.

From a material perspective which would be more durable? They say the Carbon Fiber/Kevlar combo is sturdier than just the Kevlar... Can the same be said for Graphite/Kevlar, or is the sole advantage a a stiffer canoe that is a little less durable?

I mostly semi-dry foot when loading/unloading (for me that is being willing have my feet in the water but not up to my calves, so the canoe will touch land, but I'm also not dragging the canoe over surfaces.

In real world rock vs. canoe there is almost no difference between carbon/graphite and kevlar. Carbon/graphite may be more abrasion resistant but more prone to fracture from impact. Carbon or graphite are paired with kevlar in order to reduce this. The big advantage of carbon/graphite is that they create a stiffer hull per unit weight than kevlar giving a slight advantage in paddling efficiency.

Banksiana hit the main diff. My talking to several reps from Wenonah, Northstar, Savage River, comments on carbon being easier to work with/repair because it does not fuzz like Kevlar.

butthead

I have 2 carbon Voyagers Joe. Both have a lot of BW miles on them. They were both getting thin in the bow. One, regrettably, I put clunky external skid plates on, the other some resin soaked internal felt strips. My suspicion is the carbon wore thinner quicker than my kevlar boats. 1 has 2 through and through cracks above the water line. I laid it down unceremoniously on an unseen rock. I thought the 1 split was quite long for the amount of abuse. If you're a racer carbon might be worth the price difference. They sure are pretty though, I especially like the checkerboard patterned carbon. Maybe if I unload my 3 wood canvas canoes and my Mn. II in the next few years I can buy a Susquehanna in carbon. ( 18.5 ' long, 34#) My Mn. II is 44#.

I have the Carbon/graphite MNII that I bought 4 years ago. It has been on 7 trips for a total of about 65 days. I baby it pretty much and definitely wet foot it. I love the boat for its looks, the stiff hull is very efficient and its weight. I would say they are as durable as the kevlar, but maybe the black shows the scratches more. I must admit if I hadn't got a blem from Hayward outfitters with the adjustable seats and auto bilge for a good price I would have went with a Kevlar. As I wouldn't have wanted to pay full price for one.

I've owned a black gold Bell Northstar and a Bell Starfire. Both had trips on rocky Ozark streams. Tried to "Baby" them, but due to the nature of our waters, it was difficult. Just some deep scratches and scrapes, which I could re-finish by sanding and epoxy coat. I should have taken "Before" and "After" pics, but here's the Starfire after re-finishing.

I am going to address the original question. Carbon fiber and graphite are referring to the same material.

I think that the the combination of this material with kevlar has been proven to be tough and stiff and lighter than all kevlar layups. As I get older, shedding pounds becomes important enough to pay the premium prices. I can see a carbon/kevlar hull in my future.

sedges: "I am going to address the original question. Carbon fiber and graphite are referring to the same material. "

That was my thought as well. Only experience is with 3 Bell Black Gold boats. All have held up good. Looking at kevlar only hulls in shops have always felt they were to thin and flexible. The carbon fiber stiffens them up considerably.

sedges: "I am going to address the original question. Carbon fiber and graphite are referring to the same material.


I think that the the combination of this material with kevlar has been proven to be tough and stiff and lighter than all kevlar layups. As I get older, shedding pounds becomes important enough to pay the premium prices. I can see a carbon/kevlar hull in my future."

Carbon/Graphite layups are not lighter than kevlar lay ups. In Wenonah lay ups UL Kevlar and UL Graphite are roughly the same weight. In Northstar boats the Blacklite (graphite) is actually heavier.

For me it was all about looks, my Carbontec SRQ17 isn’t a high performance hull at all, just loved the look of Black with the Bronze alum gunnels. In the case of the SR the Carbon is backed in all areas by 2 layers of Kevlar and a layer of Glass, actually the glass might even be on the outside, can’t remember at the moment.

Hey paddlinjoe, I have both Kevlar and carbon/Kevlar canoes but overall I think it's all about how the manufacturers use these two materials in their specific designs (how many layers of each fabric? how thick is the fabric?). I think it's pretty clear that the manufacturers don't all have the same design goals. Both Wenonah and Swift talk about using carbon fiber to get the lightest possible canoe. That is a durability warning! But when you look at the descriptions of the Northstar lay-ups you see that they use carbon fiber to get a strong boat that is still quite light and they state "significantly more durable than starlight" (their lightweight kev lay-up). So for the two specific canoes you are considering, the NW17 should be significantly more durable than the MNII. And just PS I have a BlackLite boat and have quite a bit of confidence in it...much more than an ultralight kev boat.

I appreciate the input (and pictures) everyone has been providing. The personal experiences with each is quite helpful. While I had thought that carbon fiber and graphite were different materials, I understand better now they are interchangeable terms for this conversation.

voyager, you certainly put a lot of miles on your canoes :-) Thanks for the examples of you have addressed the worn parts.

For me, justpaddlin got to the essence of my issue pointing out the difference between manufacturers and how and how many layers of fabric are being used. I also had good conversation with and outfitter specifically regarding the MNII graphite layup. As efficient as it is to paddle, and regardless of how much I love the look of it, it really wouldn't fit the manner in which I travel the BWCA, which is the primary use it would receive.

When I think of what the canoe went through walking for a couple miles of low water on the Pidgeon river last September, I cringe at what that would do to the MNII graphite layup.

I hear you Joe on the Pigeon. I'll probably take the carbon Blackwater down it in Sept. Not a scratch on it yet, ( sandy beaches here ) but I bought it to use.

paddlinjoe: "

When I think of what the canoe went through walking for a couple miles of low water on the Pidgeon river last September, I cringe at what that would do to the MNII graphite layup.
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There is no appreciable difference between MNII and Northstar in dealing with rock abrasion. The exteriors of the two layups are basically the same material, the same hardness. They both gouge and scratch at the same rate. For flatwater use I perceive little difference in the durability of Wenonah and Northstar canoes.

Graphite is more abrasion resistant than Kevlar and is much easier to repair damage as it doesn't fray when sanded. However both materials are way softer than the rock of the canadian shield to the point that a concern or argument over relative durability is ridiculous. Similar to the silly increased durability claims Souris River makes for their use of epoxy resin (yes it's harder than vinyl ester- no it doesn't make a difference when it meets rock).