...or is there now something equal membrane material or better? You would think something would come along.

I'm not sure that gore-tex has stood still. There was a discussion of breathable rain gear recently that went into this with some people really liking gore tex. I'm very happy with an eVent fabric jacket I got that is by REI. Look for that thread as it had a lot of discussion.

I feel like my eVent is a bit more breathable than my Goretex, but to be fair there are many variations of Goretex and I have not tried them all.

Ragged: "I feel like my eVent is a bit more breathable than my Goretex, but to be fair there are many variations of Goretex and I have not tried them all."

When you buy like a REI goretex rainpants pretty much it just says like paclite goretex. How do you suppose to know what is what?
I think also in the goretex line sometimes you pay more just for the name?

I think paclite might be the lowest grade? My paclite pants and jacket have performed well and have been durable over the past 6-7 seasons and I have a Marmot jacket that I've used for a decade and it's still solid (with regular care).

I'm sure other systems are effective but I continue to shop for Gore Tex when I need waterproof gear.

Pinetree: "or is there now something equal membrane material or better? You would think something would come along?"

Long story short, yes, Goretex is still the best. As with most things in life though you can always say "it depends". I'll give you a brief idea from all of my research on this subject.

Nylon is the cheapest, that's what Marmot Precip is made out of. It's the cheapest, and breaths the poorest, and is lightweight compared to the higher quality goretex I'll get to in a minute.

Event is the newest, relative to high quality goretex it's thinner and lighter, breaths better than nylon and equal to goretex, but lacks in durability (considerably), lifespan is finite from day one due to the material needing constant reapplication of waterproofing material, especially if you wash it. Expensive, but packs down very small. Great for Ultralight backpackers and joggers, not tough enough for the BWCA in my opinion.

Goretex is the oldest, but the technology has changed DRASTICALLY since it's invention. There are many grades of Goretex, the best being Gore Pro. Gore Pro is on par with Event in terms of breathability, but blows it out of the water in terms of durability. The fabric also doesn't need reapplication of waterproofing material like Event and is a breeze to wash. The only bummer of this material is that this material is thicker and heaver than the Event, which lends to it's longer lifespan and durability.

Weight and space a concern but don't care if you need to buy a new jacket after 4 years of solid use? Go Event.

Like your gear to be bullet proof and last as long as you take care of it? Go Gore Pro.

There's even going to be Goretex Stretch coming out in 2020 supposedly, I imagine it'll be a direct counter to Event with the lightweight and thin market in mind.

GearGuy good writeup.

I took the plunge on some Goretex raingear last year, couldn't be happier. Rain isn't nearly a bummer anymore

GearGuy: "

Pinetree: "or is there now something equal membrane material or better? You would think something would come along?"

Long story short, yes, Goretex is still the best. As with most things in life though you can always say "it depends". I'll give you a brief idea from all of my research on this subject.


Nylon is the cheapest, that's what Marmot Precip is made out of. It's the cheapest, and breaths the poorest, and is lightweight compared to the higher quality goretex I'll get to in a minute.


Event is the newest, relative to high quality goretex it's thinner and lighter, breaths better than nylon and equal to goretex, but lacks in durability (considerably), lifespan is finite from day one due to the material needing constant reapplication of waterproofing material, especially if you wash it. Expensive, but packs down very small. Great for Ultralight backpackers and joggers, not tough enough for the BWCA in my opinion.


Goretex is the oldest, but the technology has changed DRASTICALLY since it's invention. There are many grades of Goretex, the best being Gore Pro. Gore Pro is on par with Event in terms of breathability, but blows it out of the water in terms of durability. The fabric also doesn't need reapplication of waterproofing material like Event and is a breeze to wash. The only bummer of this material is that this material is thicker and heaver than the Event, which lends to it's longer lifespan and durability.

Weight and space a concern but don't care if you need to buy a new jacket after 4 years of solid use? Go Event.


Like your gear to be bullet proof and last as long as you take care of it? Go Gore Pro.

There's even going to be Goretex Stretch coming out in 2020 supposedly, I imagine it'll be a direct counter to Event with the lightweight and thin market in mind.
"

Not trying to disagree but I think the ultimate durability and water shedding abilities of the outer (DWR) can vary greatly depending on the purpose of the garment, I don’t think it’s necessarily a trait of the actual waterproof/breathable membrane. I have super light weight 2 layer Goretex jackets and very heavy Burton snowboarding shells that are 3 layer. My current eVent jacket is a 3L construction and no lighter than my last GoreTex rig of similar design.

You're totally right Ragged, it completely depends on what the Gore/eVent is bonded to. You can buy eVent that is thick like snowboarding jackets, and you can buy paper thin goretex. eVent does indeed lose it's waterproofing ability if you aren't retreating it after washes though no matter what it's bonded to. I am a little bias towards Goretex, I think eVent isn't as mature in it's design

This is a very useful thread, good to know about the differences in GoreTex. I have an LL Bean GoreTex jacket and am finding myself treating it more often, after about 5 years of use. The rain doesn't run off like I'd like it too, though it's still kept me dry inside. I definitely will research some Gore Tex Pro jackets, it might be worth the extra $ investment.
There's nothing like being out fishing or something, and it starts to pour, and you feel almost happy about it knowing that your rain gear will work superbly. I know,... weird. :)

Pinetree: "GearGuy good writeup."

username checks out!

HowardSprague: "This is a very useful thread, good to know about the differences in GoreTex. I have an LL Bean GoreTex jacket and am finding myself treating it more often, after about 5 years of use. The rain doesn't run off like I'd like it too, though it's still kept me dry inside. I definitely will research some Gore Tex Pro jackets, it might be worth the extra $ investment.
There's nothing like being out fishing or something, and it starts to pour, and you feel almost happy about it knowing that your rain gear will work superbly. I know,... weird. :)


"

I think all raingear on the outersurface if not treated after so long the water just sits on the raingear and more apt to sink thru. A good treatment-repellant-conditioner of some sort would cure that.
Probably with use the goretex itself gets stretched this way and that way.

Gear Guy's explanation is a bit misleading. Nearly all rain gear is nylon. Water resistance is due to the coating applied to the nylon. The "breathable waterproof coatings" are relatively fragile- higher quality rain gear sandwiches the coating between layers of fabric (generally nylon or poly)- while this protects the breathable membrane it makes for a heavier and bulkier jacket. Lightweight jackets (like Marmot Precip) have the coating applied directly to the inside of the fabric where it is subject to abrasion and over time tends to weep and leak.

As the OP didn’t specify which application, I’ll contribute info on something besides rain shells:

I’ve used the eVent stuffsacks and compression sacks for three seasons now and have been very impressed at the venting+waterproof-ness.

I’ve also been using more dyneema composite fabric for waterproofing: i have used it as a stuffsack, pack cover, and a rain skirt. If you can get past the crinkly nature of new material and break it in a little, it performs well as a waterproof fabric- and is unbeatable in strength/weight ratio.

I just wanted to air out some points which I feel are a bit misleading in this thread. I think someone even mentioned applying a coating to WPBs which would actually ruin them (especially any kind of silicone/urethane coating).

WPBs work by combining a membrane which has a pore size which is too small to allow liquid water through while allowing vapor to pass through. The problem is that even if you have a layer like this if the pores of the membrane or the outer/inner fabric (in a 3 layer configuration) are either filled with dirt or covered/capped with water/sweat (i.e. "wetting out") then vapor can no longer pass through the membrane and the garment is no longer breathable. The DWR comes into play as a treatment (not a coating) of the outer layer which causes the water to bead up and roll off of the fabric and hence keep it from "wetting out".

DWR treatments are actually very delicate (try scratching it a bit with your fingernail and then pour a little water over it and see what happens) and this is a limitation of ANY waterproof breathable on the market regardless of brand name. Once your DWR is worn the outer layer starts to wet out very quickly. To add to that the inner fabric has to be clean and dry to allow the system to work correctly as well so you either have to just not sweat in it, or dial in your layers just right so that your sweat turns to vapor before it reaches that layer.

When you really think about it all of these factors combined make for a really great system when it comes right off the shelf in the store (and sells a lot of gear), but once you start actually using it hard (which maybe not a lot of people actually do) it has very poor performance. I've found this to be true of all of the brands I've tried (Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex Pro, eVent, and DriQ Elite) they're all fundamentally built off the same (IMO flawed) system, but unfortunately there isn't anything better out there yet that I know of. Obviously there are some people out there trying to come up with a better system (Columbia's OutDry is an example of a new take on the system), but I haven't seen anything that I would call a radical "game changer".

I personally just consider that they'll all just be waterproof and not breathable sooner than I'd like. Washing and DWR applications help, but in my experience they just prolong the inevitable. :(

...So to answer the OP- no I don't think there's anything better out there yet so don't waste your money! :P

keth0601: "...

When you really think about it all of these factors combined make for a really great system when it comes right off the shelf in the store (and sells a lot of gear), but once you start actually using it hard (which maybe not a lot of people actually do) it has very poor performance. I've found this to be true of all of the brands I've tried...

...So to answer the OP- no I don't think there's anything better out there yet so don't waste your money! :P"

From “portage pants”, portage boots, and yes rain gear I agree with the statement how things perform well off the shelf. Gone we’re the days I could wear that favorite boot or pair of pants... if going on any sizable trip I’d suggest heavily evaluating all key items that can fail. 40 days of use was pushing it on some items. I think the manufacturer banks on the short and infrequent trippers. (Short in trip length not stature.) And when things fail on day seven of a twenty six day trip? It really tests your sewing abilities... especially boots... Rain gear also... pull it out, get it wet! Don’t wait until a big downpour on day four of a wet cold trip to find out your rain gear is a rain sponge after working so well the year before.