Now that they have the food storage rule in place, I don't see it going away anytime soon.

How are you going to use your blue barrel? A 60 liter won't fit 2 BV500's. I tried today. It is certainly water tight.
Some ideas -

In the BW
Clothes, sleeping bags and tents?
Utilities - pots, pans, stoves, eating/cooking utensils, fishing gear?
It doubles as a chair in camp.
A new swimming toy.

At home-
Flower planter
Rain barrel
Potato keep

More ideas?

What blue barrels.

You can hang your food.. Imagine the tree damage from hung 60 l barrels . There is no requirement on the container that is hung..

Nothing in the regs mandates bear vaults. Lets not panic.

the actual regulations

I'll still hang my 30L like I always do.

What’s the consensus on sites that legitimately have no trees that meet the FS hanging requirements? I’ve been on some island sites that hanging would look comical.

Here are some hanging suggestions

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd501921.pdf

We have a 20L barrel & two Ursacks for all our smelly crap. Everything goes up the tree using a petzel pulley system. I started out hanging so no planned changes here. You just have to pick the right treed site. If you want true protection it's Bearikade or bust. You might need a second mortgage or just rent them.

PatrickE: "What’s the consensus on sites that legitimately have no trees that meet the FS hanging requirements? I’ve been on some island sites that hanging would look comical. "

Some burn areas don't have any options really

cyclones30: "

PatrickE: "What’s the consensus on sites that legitimately have no trees that meet the FS hanging requirements? I’ve been on some island sites that hanging would look comical. "

Some burn areas don't have any options really "

Not just burn areas, there are sites where the tree size and variety will not support hanging. E.g. Sites on Kiskadinna.

Frankly, despite blue barrels not being structurally bear resistant, when used in a specific way, they seem to be quite behaviorally bear resistant, so I will continue to use my barrel even though it will be in violation of the new rule. The USFS can't even enforce the rules they had before, and this will be no different--serving only to be something to be enforced at their convenience and to act as a CYA when people have bear problems. If they actually enforced this new rule completely, visitation to the SNF would die quickly and painfully, and I'm not sure when/if it would recover.

Hanging is *far* more likely to fail. Usack XLs are not allowed to be used the way Ursacks need to be used to be effective--that is, tied directly to a tree rather than hung like a regular food pack. The remaining containers are tailored to individuals/couples on shorter backpacking trips and are too small and expensive to be appropriate for week+ group trips in canoe country.

If a larger bear resistant container is developed for canoeists as a result of these regulations, I will be ecstatic and will be first in line to abandon my barrel.

You could probably rent a barrel from an outfitter so that stashing the barrel in the woods could be the option.

HighnDry: "You could probably rent a barrel from an outfitter so that stashing the barrel in the woods could be the option."

I think the point here is that stashing a barrel in the woods would not be in compliance with the forest service requirements. A lot of the regular trippers have their own barrels (and many rent them), but unless you can hang them somewhere, doesn’t sound like you’re in compliance.

mschi772: "If a larger bear resistant container is developed for canoeists as a result of these regulations, I will be ecstatic and will be first in line to abandon my barrel."

This seems like a heck of a business opportunity!

I'm curious as to what is the weak point to the blue barrel when it comes to black bears. Are they able to bite or claw through the plastic sides or is it the opening of the barrel that is the supposed "weak" spot. If it is the lid it would seem like a work around could be created to strengthen that point, perhaps something as simple as a cable netting similar to what I've seen marketed for putting around luggage. Perhaps a sturdier lid that could bolt shut.

Several years ago I did a float trip down the Alagnak River in Katmai National Park in Alaska during the height of the salmon spawn and the river was thick with Alaska Brown Bears, which on average are several times larger than your BWCA black bear. Hanging food was impossible, as we were miles away from the nearest tree that was tall enough for that task. We used steel drums with a ring on the lid that bolted shut. It appears that steel drums are available in the market in a 50L size, but going that route looks to add 10# over a blue barrel.

It seems to me that most problem bears are the result of people not keeping a clean campsite and I'm curious as to how often a bear has actually gotten in to a blue barrel that is properly secured. (I'm also curious about how it is ok to store your food in your car. I've seen more than a couple videos of black bears in Yosemite who became quite adept at getting locked cars open to access food.)

Hanging a barrel is no more difficult than hangong a food pack. Cmon folks relax.
Besides they do a great job keeping the mini bears out and your food from getting wet.
CB

Not sure that this brings much clarity but....

" Proper food storage can be done in two ways:

1. Using a bear canister or bear-resistant container and placing it 50 feet away from your tent on the ground (preferred method) or;
2. Hanging your food pack at least 12 feet above the ground at all points, six feet horizontally from any pole or limb and four feet vertically from any pole or limb. Please be mindful of the weight of your pack while hanging it to avoid breaking branches and damaging live trees. "

Cedarboy: "Hanging a barrel is no more difficult than hangong a food pack. Cmon folks relax.
Besides they do a great job keeping the mini bears out and your food from getting wet.
CB"

Depends on tree morphology. Hanging is impossible in the boreal forest.

A 30L will fit two BV450s with room to spare for other cooking gear and odorous items.
I would imagine a 60L would fit a 500 and a 450.

ScottL: "I'm curious as to what is the weak point to the blue barrel when it comes to black bears. Are they able to bite or claw through the plastic sides or is it the opening of the barrel that is the supposed "weak" spot. If it is the lid it would seem like a work around could be created to strengthen that point, perhaps something as simple as a cable netting similar to what I've seen marketed for putting around luggage. Perhaps a sturdier lid that could bolt shut."

Lots of instances of black bear breaches on blue barrels to be found with some Google-fu. Most I've seen just rip right through the barrel itself, so no amount of modifying the lid will achieve anything.

Chris Prouse posted a video last year where they got raided overnight by a problem bear in Algonquin. The barrel was hung, admittedly too low and too close to the tree and too close to camp from what I can tell (and Chris and Julia are super saavy and experienced) and the bear popped the top and dumped the barrel with it still hanging in the tree.

Chris Prouse's bear encounter trip

I am not sure why the forest service is so attached to hanging food. Just like a blue barrel can be defeated by a determined bear, a properly hung pack can be gotten by a determined bear. In the attached video a group of bears defeats the hang of a blue barrel but the bears then fail to breach the barrel.

Black bear encounter on Knife Lake

But the method that failed is legal and the one that worked is not. There are, of course, many examples of both methods working and failing.

I personally am thinking about combining Ursacks and blue barrels. What I would like to see is that the Ursack company makes Ursacks that fit inside the barrels. The sacks could be made in sizes and shapes that also allow them to be organizers for your food in addition to providing another level of bear protection. Ursacks are approved by the IGBC but probably not by the forest service. I suspect that the failure rate for a blue barrel backed up with Ursacks inside and stored on the ground would be much lower than food hung in a tree.

I just bought one last canoecopia, along with a CCS barrel pack.
I have a Garcia and clear Bear Vault (i think it's called) that can both fit in the pack. But I'm sure eventually it's a go again on the better-fitting blue one. Hide it right and those are great.

Thanks for the link, mschi772. Yep, those big ones are so powerful. Once those claws get a good grip of the ring it's all over.

PatrickE: "

HighnDry: "You could probably rent a barrel from an outfitter so that stashing the barrel in the woods could be the option."

I think the point here is that stashing a barrel in the woods would not be in compliance with the forest service requirements. A lot of the regular trippers have their own barrels (and many rent them), but unless you can hang them somewhere, doesn’t sound like you’re in compliance.


"

I guess if I can hide a barrel from the bears, I can hide a barrel from the rangers.
"Where's your food?"
"Oh, right there!" (points at red herring small Garcia barrel)

Note that in the Chris Prouse video, the barrel locking ring was not locked with a cotter pin or similar locking device. It wasn’t the power of the bear that got it into Chris’s barrel. The bear was just smart or lucky enough to take the lid off just like humans do.

LarryS48: "Note that in the Chris Prouse video, the barrel locking ring was not locked with a cotter pin or similar locking device. It wasn’t the power of the bear that got it into Chris’s barrel. The bear was just smart or lucky enough to take the lid off just like humans do.
"

Ah ha! Good catch!

martian: "We have a 20L barrel & two Ursacks for all our smelly crap. Everything goes up the tree using a petzel pulley system. I started out hanging so no planned changes here. You just have to pick the right treed site. If you want true protection it's Bearikade or bust. You might need a second mortgage or just rent them."

They aren't that expensive. Buy a couple, they last forever. Many parks have gone this route already, it was pretty clear it was only a matter of time.

HowardSprague: "

PatrickE: "

HighnDry: "You could probably rent a barrel from an outfitter so that stashing the barrel in the woods could be the option."

I think the point here is that stashing a barrel in the woods would not be in compliance with the forest service requirements. A lot of the regular trippers have their own barrels (and many rent them), but unless you can hang them somewhere, doesn’t sound like you’re in compliance.



"

I guess if I can hide a barrel from the bears, I can hide a barrel from the rangers.
"Where's your food?"
"Oh, right there!" (points at red herring small Garcia barrel)"

Barney might buy that Howard but Andy will see right through that b.s.

Hard sided, capable of withstanding 200 lbs of direct force, closed with contents not able to drip out.

That eliminates Ursacks and Blue Barrels for ground use. What does that leave? Bear Vaults and Bear kegs for ground use.

Not wanting to be argumentative, but for those stating "I will just ignore this rule". . . .then its okay for us to have more then 4 canoes on a site? More then 9 people? Can we ignore all the rules?

apples/oranges. How I store and hide my food has no effect on overcrowding, noise, etc..

mschi772: "

ScottL: "I'm curious as to what is the weak point to the blue barrel when it comes to black bears. Are they able to bite or claw through the plastic sides or is it the opening of the barrel that is the supposed "weak" spot. If it is the lid it would seem like a work around could be created to strengthen that point, perhaps something as simple as a cable netting similar to what I've seen marketed for putting around luggage. Perhaps a sturdier lid that could bolt shut."

Lots of instances of black bear breaches on blue barrels to be found with some Google-fu. Most I've seen just rip right through the barrel itself, so no amount of modifying the lid will achieve anything.


Chris Prouse posted a video last year where they got raided overnight by a problem bear in Algonquin. The barrel was hung, admittedly too low and too close to the tree and too close to camp from what I can tell (and Chris and Julia are super saavy and experienced) and the bear popped the top and dumped the barrel with it still hanging in the tree.


Chris Prouse's bear encounter trip "

I'm not finding any video that shows a bear ripping a blue barrel. The video from Knife Lake in 2011 actually shows the bear being deterred by the barrel. The video from Chris Prouse shows a bear that popped the ring holding the lid, which shows a weakness in the ring design, which even that video shows as having since been fixed by the use of a pin on the latch. Personally I have a hard time seeing a black bear ripping through an intact barrel so it seems like one answer is to design a more sturdy ring that holds the lid in place. I know of at least one way that can be done based on the system that we used in Alaska.

As many have pointed out, bear vaults have their limits when it comes to the amount of food that they hold, making them less sensible for larger parties that are spending 10-14 days in the wilderness. Many sites in the BWCA don't have trees near them that will work for hanging anything high enough off the ground. (That raises a whole other issue, because the Forest Service issued a rule that leaves hanging food as an option, but if I'm using a designated Forest Service campsite that does not have a tree anywhere close to it that will work for hanging my food pack can the Forest Service turn around and issue me a citation for not hanging my food. Should I, in the alternative, camp at a non-designated site that gives me a better option for hanging my pack?) Blue barrels offer a good solution for storing food for a larger group, or a group that is staying in the Boundary Waters for an extended period, so it seems like some effort should be directed at how to improve those barrels to make them less likely to be opened by a bear.

HowardSprague: "apples/oranges. How I store and hide my food has no effect on overcrowding, noise, etc.."

That's a pretty shitty attitude. If you get to decide which rules to follow and which ones not to then you can't complain about other people doing the same thing. If everyone gets to pick their own rules then there aren't any.

The design of the lid and locking ring on the blue barrels is okay. The bear was able to take the lid off in the Chris Prouse video because Chris and Julia did not use all the features of the locking ring. Once the locking ring is closed, it can be opened by pulling on the latching mechanism. If you look at the latching mechanism closely, you will see that there is a slot in the mechanism that you can insert something into to lock it shut. Chris and Julia did not do this. Hence, the bear was able to open the locking ring. Many people use some type of cotter pin to lock the ring shut. I use one of the metal loops used to attach a shower curtain. It is a good idea to tie the cotter pin (or shower curtain retainer) to the barrel because they are easy to lose. Perhaps the people that sell barrels should include one with the barrel.

Somewhere on this site someone said they should include a gasket on the lid. They do. Turn the lid upside down and look in the groove. It’s there. You should always store your barrel without the lid latched on to extend the life of the gasket.

The comments about the strength of the high density polyethylene material that the barrels are made from are justified. A determined bear can rip it open. Mind you, the bear needs to be motivated. In the Knife Lake video the bears seemed very determined to get the barrel down but not determined or knowledgeable enough to rip open the barrel.

Kinda like the camper out west who disregarded the mandate there. Bear got her stuff so she was fined big time. 5600 bucks! You can thank our sloppy friends for the mandates. If your gonna buck “the system” they’ll make em permanent. That’s my thought on this. Don’t want to invest? Hang!

ScottL: "I'm not finding any video that shows a bear ripping a blue barrel."

I didn't say it was all video. There are several photos of breached barrels. Black bears can break directly through blue barrels, even the "good" Harmony/RBW/Mauser ones.

I am sure it has happened but the ONLY time I have ever heard of a bear breaching a blue barrel is if it was already open or it was hung. I’ve seen some pictures on this site of shipping blue barrels that were broken into but those aren’t barrels designed for camping and are less resistant, have poor lids. I know a bear could get into it don’t get me wrong.

The number one and least effective method I have heard of bear getting rewarded with food is hanging (besides just doing nothing and leaving food out). Bears can climb trees, they can cut rope you can find moire videos of bears breaking into hung food packs than you can of bears breaking into barrels. I love how hangers brag, “Been doing this 30 years never had a bear get my food” Yep me too??? So what does that mean?

The FS is telling people to not use a method that has been more effective than hanging, forcing noobs into a method that takes more skill (hanging), into areas that hanging cannot be done well or at all…Finally I have NEVER seen a pack hung properly in my 40 trips…I see a lot of bear piñatas. Some of you have wonderful pictures of course that look very effective, but in practice I’ve never seen this. You are the outliers not the norm. Most noobs are not going to invest in bear vaults.

Although the FS heart is in the right place, the results are going to be MORE fed bears , more stolen food, more dead bears… Hope I am wrong.

FWIW…I have bear vaults now…that’s what I use. So the order doesn’t affect me. Made the switch last year. Just trying to apply common sense.

T

Some places provide poles. Not feasible for 2200+ sites in BWCAW but what about a portable aluminum pole with a pulley and some guy wires or ropes, and hoist the food pack? It seems you can easily get in the 20' range for same cost as 3 or so containers and only a little - 10 pounds - more weight. The anchoring/buying needs to be developed but seems like a small challenge. It seems smooth metal poles (IIRC the Philmont poles were utility poles?) are not bear climbable and near vertical - say 30 or even 45 degrees from vertical - also bear safe. Maybe just a hook but erecting the pole loaded seems harder and more likely to stress the pole. I just dislike giving up our food style for bear containers.

(Design it right and you can store your fishing poles in it!)

The retired blue barrels make wonderful dog food storage. We dump the bags into the barrel. It is air tight and keeps the food fresh, doesn’t attract mice like an open bag could.

T

RatherbeDuffing: "

HowardSprague: "apples/oranges. How I store and hide my food has no effect on overcrowding, noise, etc.."

That's a pretty shitty attitude. If you get to decide which rules to follow and which ones not to then you can't complain about other people doing the same thing. If everyone gets to pick their own rules then there aren't any."

While it indicates why I find the mandate annoying, it is not a reflection of an attitude, shitty or otherwise. Just stating a fact. I did not say that I won't follow the rule, even though I just purchased my Harmony blue barrel a little over four months ago to fit perfectly inside my CCS pack.
The times I know of, where Mr Bear got a blue barrel, were when there was a feeling - based on past experience - that "It'll be fine, we'll just leave it out in camp" and not hide it. The times I've seen a pack perfectly hung from the trees are very few (one being a trip I did with GSP - man, that guy had pack hanging down ...it was impressive. I'd need to practice every day for a couple weeks to get nearly that good...But I am pretty good at hiding a food barrel.) Worst case, I'll put my two smaller bearproof ones in the CCS pack.

I hope and anticipate that this will be temporary.

timatkn: "The retired blue barrels make wonderful dog food storage. We dump the bags into the barrel. It is air tight and keeps the food fresh, doesn’t attract mice like an open bag could.


T"

The 60 liter is wicked heavy with dog food! The 30 liter manageable. We have an old 60 l that we use for sand and salt storage. Its next to the driveway ( aka skating rink in winter)

timatkn: "I’ve seen some pictures on this site of shipping blue barrels that were broken into but those aren’t barrels designed for camping and are less resistant, have poor lids. "

None of the "blue barrels" are designed for camping. They are all generic commercial/industrial HDPE open-head drums. The ones you think are made for camping are just the sturdier ones most likely made my Mauser and rebranded as Harmony or Recreation Barrel Works when they're resold to campers. Yes, even these barrels have been breached, and one can find multiple photos of them having been ripped open right through the side, not a failure of the list like you want to believe.

Hmm. I can fit my little BearVault and my Garcia barrel in my blue barrel. A bit more weight, but then I could also fit my utensils, stove and fuel. Hide the whole pack. Food is contained within bear proof containers.

Given time a determined bear can get into a lot of things.

I had a 55gal steel barrel with a steel lid and a steel bolted locking ring that was as tight as one could get. That had 150lbs of peanut butter it.

A bear knocked it over several times but never got it open.

I went away for a week and came home to find the barrel open.

It looked like the the bear knock it over then spent enough time bouncing on it.

To deform the barrel the until lid came off.

The barrel was deformed enough that it was junk.

All I could hope for was the bear had a belly ache from eating the 150lbs of peanut butter that was in it.

Moral of the story the blue barrels really don't stand a chance.

HowardSprague: "Hmm. I can fit my little BearVault and my Garcia barrel in my blue barrel. A bit more weight, but then I could also fit my utensils, stove and fuel. Hide the whole pack. Food is contained within bear proof containers."

This is my plan, too (at least for the short-term). I'm using the UDAP canisters.

So, you pull into a campsite and like it. As you stand by the fire grate and scan the site, you see the perfect hanging tree. Bark missing, numerous lower branches broke. Thats the last place I hang anything because I'm pretty sure the bears know where every one of those trees are. Walk down the shore or go back in the woods off of the trails. Hide your hang.

HowardSprague: "Hmm. I can fit my little BearVault and my Garcia barrel in my blue barrel. A bit more weight, but then I could also fit my utensils, stove and fuel. Hide the whole pack. Food is contained within bear proof containers."

My only question is why keep in blue barrel? If a bear destroyed it to get at the canisters you’d be toting canisters under your arms. I take them out of my explorer pack and place in a depression. Even with bear activity they don’t go far and the pack is still there for its purpose. That was at home when I knew there was bear activity and I like to test everything I can.

I have a steel cable attached to a pin that goes into the opening of my barrel lid and we have always secured it to a tree or fire grate in the evening.

Hopefully these restrictions are gone next year but if not we’ll just hang the barrel with a pulley.

mschi772: "

timatkn: "I’ve seen some pictures on this site of shipping blue barrels that were broken into but those aren’t barrels designed for camping and are less resistant, have poor lids. "

None of the "blue barrels" are designed for camping. They are all generic commercial/industrial HDPE open-head drums. The ones you think are made for camping are just the sturdier ones most likely made my Mauser and rebranded as Harmony or Recreation Barrel Works when they're resold to campers. Yes, even these barrels have been breached, and one can find multiple photos of them having been ripped open right through the side, not a failure of the list like you want to believe. "

I think you missed my point. The blue barrels seal in scents, are easy to use, in many cases are effective, in most cases a breach is the exception not the norm…most people going will not have access to the proper barrels, most people will not hang properly. Outlawing the blue barrels will result in more bears getting food, more dead bears. The blue barrels aren’t as good as other products, but you have to factor in practicality of the masses. There have been videos posted on this site of bears being thwarted by the blue barrels. FWIW…I have the bear vault. Just trying to use common sense and be realistic.

"

"





Nice Bearvault. What put the hole in it?

I was told to keep food out of car at the Farm Lake entry in June. Apparently a few cars/trucks were scratched up pretty bad by bears. Upon my return a week later I looked at the cars in the lot and some were pretty damaged. Glad I brought all my food with me..

LarryS48: " "

"



Nice Bearvault. What put the hole in it?"

Bear got into it...can't remember the details...it isn't mine...from a while back.

T

timatkn: "

LarryS48: " "

"

Nice Bearvault. What put the hole in it?"


Bear got into it...can't remember the details...it isn't mine...from a while back.


T"

Nothing is 100% effective. Here are a couple of others broken into by bears. Still a great device to use...my point is that barrel break ins by any brand (including blue) are the exception not the norm.

KarlBAndersen1: "A 30L will fit two BV450s with room to spare for other cooking gear and odorous items.
I would imagine a 60L would fit a 500 and a 450."

I just checked and a 60L barrel will fit two BV500s laying on their sides with plenty of room to spare of other items. I just need to figure out if 2 BV500s will hold all the food that is usually in stuff sacks inside the barrel. If not, the barrel may need to be swapped out for another portage pack.