I got our permit and in hindsight should have checked the box for going into Canada. Is there a way to do that online, or should I just call the number on the recreation.com website?

Lots of questions...

So you're planning a trip into the BWCA, but looking to extend your trip into Quetico?

What are your plans for "going into Canada"?

At which ranger station will you enter?

I assume you're aware of the need for a Remote Area Border Crossing (RABC) permit?

When you come back to the US?

When you come back to the US, will you head straight to the landing or are you looking to spend a night (or more) in the BW before leaving?

Could you expand a bit on what you are planning? It sounds like you plan to enter BWCA and then go into Quetico? You will need a Quetico permit (either do it online (QPP Reservations) and you'll need to apply for a RABC (RABC app).

We are planning an 8 day trip, starting at Mudro Lake, working our way up to Crooked lake. We may want to loop north into Quetico for a day or 2 before meandering back to Mudro. We are picking up our permit at the Kawishiwi Ranger Station. I know we need a permit, just wasn't sure what it was called, what was the best way to get it, if I needed exact dates, number of people, etc.

When you enter Canada from the BWCA, you must enter at/check in at a Quetico Ranger Station, and you should reserve a permit in advance. The three southern places where you can do this are: Lac la Croix, Prairie Portage and Cache Bay. As mentioned, you also need to secure RABC permits in advance as well - unless you got through the Sand Point customs location on the far west side.

alphabetty: "We are planning an 8 day trip, starting at Mudro Lake, working our way up to Crooked lake. We may want to loop north into Quetico for a day or 2 before meandering back to Mudro. We are picking up our permit at the Kawishiwi Ranger Station. I know we need a permit, just wasn't sure what it was called, what was the best way to get it, if I needed exact dates, number of people, etc. "

Maybe you know this, maybe you don't, but you can't just randomly enter a foreign country without doing it legally. In your example, you would need to first make a Quetico reservation, then you would apply for an RABC permit. You will need to include a copy of your passport in your application. Assuming both of those steps get completed, you would then need to pick up your permit at a Quetico ranger station, in this case, Prairie Portage. From there, you would continue with your trip into Quetico.

When you come back, you will (at bare minimum) need a BWCA day permit that allows you to paddle through to the landing so you can go home. If you're planning to camp one night (or more) in the BWCA before leaving, you would need the appropriate permit. Someone could correct me, but I believe the permit option is called "From Canada" or something like that.

And to be legal when you re-enter the US, you need to report back through a US Customs station (in Ely, in this case) or it can be done through an app on your smartphone.

Jackfish is pretty much spot-on...one minor tidbit is that the Ely Customs office closed a few years ago, so reentering the US is via the CBP ROAM app once you are back in cell range.

Sounds like we should just avoid it! Too complicated!

alphabetty: "We may want to loop north into Quetico for a day or 2 before meandering back..."

No. It's not a case of maybe / maybe not. Permits for exact days must be secured well in advance and in-person check-in is required.

alphabetty: "Sounds like we should just avoid it! Too complicated!"

Alphabetty, don't give up so easily. What you want to do is doable and not as difficult as you might think. It's actually more cumbersome to list the requirements than it is to actually do what you want to do. It sounded like you needed to realize that people from the US can't just randomly cross the border and enter Canada and Quetico anywhere they want.

Now that that has been clarified...

Let's say you want to start with a 4-day trip in the BW, then go into Quetico for four days, then return to the US and go home.

Get a BWCA permit with an entry date of four days prior to when you want to go into Quetico. Book a permit that will allow you to be at the Quetico Prairie Portage ranger station on the day of, or even the day before, your entry date.

Order your RABC permit online ASAP. They usually take 2-4 weeks to arrive. (+/-)

When you pick up your BWCA permit from an outfitter or ranger station, grab a BWCA Day Permit so you're legal when you come out of Quetico and are paddling back to the landing.

Make it happen.

Jackfish, I was always under the impression that it IS more difficult to cross the border at Crooked Lake (alphabetty says their entry permit is Mudro, which makes the Prairie Portage ranger station impossible for them to use).

I've been up to Crooked via Mudro and looked longingly at the Canadian side, but my (admittedly casual) research has indicated that if you really want to enter Quetico from Crooked or even LLC, your best bet is to bite the financial bullet and just have Zups or Andersons shuttle you from Crane Lake to an entry point on LLC. Otherwise you have a long drive (or paddle) to the LLC ranger station.

Am I missing something that would make a border crossing in that area of the BWCA/Quetico less challenging?

In reading Jackfish's scenario, I see that a day permit is needed for the BWCA to return through the BWCA. My question would be about returning to the BWCA after Quetico and wanting to overnight in the BWCA again. Would you need a second overnight paddle permit for the BWCA since you technically left it and now are returning a second time? As I read the need for a day permit to return, I'm guessing the answer is that a second overnight permit would be needed but don't want to assume that is the case.

If so, I see that Recreation.gov has a choice for "from Canada" as an entry point but it shows a limit of 3 per day and only Basswood west of Prairie Portage. Is it that limited/restricted on where you can "reenter" the BWCA?

I'm just very curious about how this would work.

That's a great question, Jeff. Because if one were to re-enter the BWCA from Quetico via Crooked or LLC, it is a very long trip to exit the BWCA in a day.

I was curious enough that I called the Kawishiwi Ranger Station and asked the very question about returning through the BWCA with some overnights on the back end of the trip. I was directed to a main Forest Service office. The reply was that a second permit is needed to return to the BWCA. A day permit if you are only passing back through to exit that day. An overnight paddle permit if you are going to camp back in the BWCA on the way out. So then I asked about what the entry point would be for the second permit.

I brought up the point that Recreation.gov has "from Canada" as an option but only has 3 permits per day and is on Basswood. I said that if one were at LLC, that would be a LONG way to reenter the BWCA via a permit. She agreed that this would not be good for all adventurers.

She was going to check on the answer of what the correct entry point would be in this case. I told her I was on this thread and would share the info once I hear back from the US Forest Service. She thanked me for being willing to share the correct info with other adventurers.

So stay tuned. I will share the info as soon as I hear back.

freeboard: "Jackfish, I was always under the impression that it IS more difficult to cross the border at Crooked Lake (alphabetty says their entry permit is Mudro, which makes the Prairie Portage ranger station impossible for them to use). "

Entering Quetico from Crooked is definitely more difficult, because it's not allowed. To enter Quetico, one needs to pass through a Q ranger station. In that area, it's LLC or Prairie Portage - both of which are a fair distance away.

Yes, if you want to enter Q at LLC, a tow from Zup's or Anderson's is a good option. Pricey... but a good option. Then not only will you be picking up your permit at the LLC ranger station, but you'll be passing through Canadian customs as well. No RABC permit is required. (RABC permits are required when entering through Prairie Portage and Cache Bay. No customs stations at either location.)

Theoretically, one could pay a visit to the PP ranger station to get a permit, then head off into the BW, but they only allow you to pick up your permit up to 24 hours in advance of your entry date. Plus you'd have to paddle 4+ hours round trip or pay to take a tow to PP and back. Most likely costing you $60 per person or so... and the ranger station likes to have the entire crew there at the same time.

It's best to plan a Quetico trip or a BW trip.

Jefflynn06: "If so, I see that Recreation.gov has a choice for "from Canada" as an entry point but it shows a limit of 3 per day and only Basswood west of Prairie Portage. Is it that limited/restricted on where you can "reenter" the BWCA? "

People come back into the US from Quetico all summer long. If you're paddling out, you need only a BW day permit. It's about a two hour paddle from PP to the Moose Lake landing.

If you're taking a tow out (say from PP), no permit is required, but you do pay a fee for the tow service. I think the tow between PP and Moose Lake landing takes around 20 minutes or so.

Have done the Mudro entry to Quetico route a few times and as others have commented it is doable. For some of the trips we just had friends haul us up to PP, then for the last ones a few years ago we paid Williams and Hall or Vosburghs for the trip up and back.

As for whether the extra hassle or money for the trip to PP is worth it you will need to decide. Having an RABC/Quetico permit along with a Canadian fishing license opens up you options a bit.

If you have never been in the Quetico before, search for threads on trips there as the area is managed far differently than the BWCA (no biffies, fire grates, designated campsites) with far more rigorous enforcement. Mudro has also become real popular so finding campsites can get interesting till you get to Crooked.

Just on the BWCA permit before and after a loop into the Q, I do not believe you need a second permit. I have official emails from two different SNF information officers that oppose each other. I've talked to USDA rangers at several Canoecopias. I'm convinced it's OK it enter the BECS on an overnight paddle permit, travel through the Q, and return through the BWCA on same permit. You have not "left the wilderness", similar to corridor crossings in BWCA ( though they have the additional restriction of not camping outside the BWCA).

If you do this, and I'm wrong, the chances of you getting caught are very, very small.

alphabetty: "Sounds like we should just avoid it! Too complicated!"

You can’t spend the night in Quetico without getting a permit at a Quetico Ranger Station.

However, if you wanted to day trip into Quetico you can but you need to have the following - and this does NOT require stopping at a Quetico Ranger Station:

1. An RABC permit (see links at end of this note) for each person in your party that will go into Quetico.

2. An Ontario Parks summer day use vehicle permit. This is essentially a day pass for entry into Quetico. One pass per canoe. You can order online HERE.

3. An Ontario Fishing license if you plan to fish in Quetico, or on the Canada side of any border lake.

With the above documents in hand, I camp on Crooked and ventured into Quetico during the day. Have done it several times. I’ve communicated with Trevor Gibb (Quetico Superintendent) - he said this is the way to do it.

CSBA info on RABC permit

RABC pdf application

This sounds much more doable - thank you!

Technically, you would also need a US passport to check back in to the US.

billconner: "Just on the BWCA permit before and after a loop into the Q, I do not believe you need a second permit. I have official emails from two different SNF information officers that oppose each other. I've talked to USDA rangers at several Canoecopias. I'm convinced it's OK it enter the BECS on an overnight paddle permit, travel through the Q, and return through the BWCA on same permit. You have not "left the wilderness", similar to corridor crossings in BWCA ( though they have the additional restriction of not camping outside the BWCA).

If you do this, and I'm wrong, the chances of you getting caught are very, very small."

What you’re saying makes sense to me. For my trip to Quetico this summer, I’m planning to enter Moose Lake EP, spend a night in the BWCA near Prairie Portage, pick up my Quetico permit in the morning, spend several nights in Quetico, then re-enter the US and spend a night or two on Basswood before coming back to Moose through Wind.

When I got my permit for Moose, it asked if I was planning to travel to Canada, I clicked yes, and it asked how many nights I’d be in Canada. That to me seemed like it is allowed to travel into Canada and back into the US on the same BWCA permit.

And because I originally thought I would need a permit for EP 71 From Canada, I tried to get one of those too. When I did that, I got a message on recreation.gov that EP 71 is only for trips ORIGINATING in Canada. I took that to mean it’s for trips where someone would enter Quetico from the north and paddle into the BWCA from Canada as part of, or to end their trip.

I can’t imagine it’s not allowed to do a loop incorporating parts of the BWCA and Quetico, staying in the BWCA on both ends of the trip. Does that sound right?

mgraber: ">Technically you would also need a US passport to check back in to the US. "

Or a passport card.

That said, I usually bring the passport and leave it in the car at the EP and I carry the passport card or a photocopy of the passport.

plander: "That said, I usually bring the passport and leave it in the car at the EP and I carry the passport card or a photocopy of the passport. "

When we checked in at Prairie Portage last August, the ranger was discussing issues some people had with Canadian regulations. One item he mentioned was that while they are seldom checked, a copy of one's passport does not meet border-crossing regulations.

We were also surprised to learn that Canadian Customs officers sometimes (a couple days/month) have a passport check at PP, and that last summer, some people were turned back because they didn't have the actual passport (or card).

The ranger also mentioned an open-carry advocate whose firearm was confiscated when Canadian Customs officers saw the handgun when he used the portage at PP. While the portage can be used by both US and Canadian citizens, US citizens must observe Canadian law when on Canadian lands.

TZ

During a trip last summer I arrived at PP just ahead of a group of four customs officials. After I finished with the ranger, they had gathered and were strapping up and putting on vests before requesting my RABC. A first for me. They were polite and quite pleasant.

EmmaMorgan: "

billconner: "Just on the BWCA permit before and after a loop into the Q, I do not believe you need a second permit. I have official emails from two different SNF information officers that oppose each other. I've talked to USDA rangers at several Canoecopias. I'm convinced it's OK it enter the BECS on an overnight paddle permit, travel through the Q, and return through the BWCA on same permit. You have not "left the wilderness", similar to corridor crossings in BWCA (though they have the additional restriction of not camping outside the BWCA).

If you do this and I'm wrong, the chances of you getting caught are very, very small."

What you’re saying makes sense to me. For my trip to Quetico this summer, I’m planning to enter Moose Lake EP, spend a night in the BWCA near Prairie Portage, pick up my Quetico permit in the morning, spend several nights in Quetico, then re-enter the US and spend a night or two on Basswood before coming back to Moose through Wind.

When I got my permit for Moose, it asked if I was planning to travel to Canada. I clicked yes, and it asked how many nights I’d be in Canada. That to me seemed like it is allowed to travel into Canada and back into the US on the same BWCA permit.

And because I originally thought I would need a permit for EP 71 From Canada, I tried to get one of those too. When I did that, I got a message on recreation.gov that EP 71 is only for trips ORIGINATING in Canada. I took that to mean it’s for trips where someone would enter Quetico from the north and paddle into the BWCA from Canada as part of, or to end their trip.

I can’t imagine it’s not allowed to do a loop incorporating parts of the BWCA and Quetico, staying in the BWCA on both ends of the trip. Does that sound right?"

Yes. Now, you could technically enter the Q at PP on a day paddle permit, cruise the Q, and then enter the BWCA on a "from Canada". Since there are almost always "from Canada" permits available (Just checked - all 3 every day except none on 2 dates. Makes me think it's a data problem.) it's a backdoor way into BWCA. Stay just one night in the Q even.

Besides passports and the card, Enhanced Driver's License is also acceptable - Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Vermont, and Washington - but not Real ID. We frequently drive into Canada and they work just fine. Also good to have one of those in case you have an emergency in the Q and the mounties rescue you - to Canada. Just simplifies returning to US.

The Forest Service has made this much easier than we have been discussing. I just received a call from the BWCA Permit Manager and was given the SIMPLE steps to doing this.

Search for available permits on Recreation.gov
go to "Select permit type" - (overnight paddle, overnight hike, day use motor, etc.)
select "paddle to/from Canada" (option at the very bottom), NOT OVERNIGHT PADDLE

Once you select that option, it will take you to a page that looks like selecting "overnight paddle" permits with two tabs along the top - "start in BWCAW traveling to Canada " and "start in Canada traveling to BWCAW".

Select "starting in BWCAW . . . ", answer "yes" to spending nights in the BWCA, pick your entry point, and that permit will cover you on the way in AND the way out. This covers you spending at least one night in the BWCA on either end, both ends, or more nights. This just recognizes that you are starting and ending in the BWCA with Canada somewhere in between.

The starting in Canada option is for trips that truly begin in Canada (either into BWCA and then back north or a one way trip from Canada into the BWCA).

NO NEED FOR A SECOND PERMIT.

So, it is very simple. And it even gives directions on page 9 of the BWCA Trip Planning Guide that they have linked on Recreation.gov

Please share this info with others who might be planning on adding Quetico to their paddling plans.

The previous answer only covers the BWCA permits and does not address Canadian requirements.

Jefflynn06: "The Forest Service has made this much easier than we have been discussing. I just received a call from the BWCA Permit Manager and was given the SIMPLE steps to doing this.

Search for available permits on Recreation.gov
go to "Select permit type" - (overnight paddle, overnight hike, day use motor, etc.)
select "paddle to/from Canada" (option at the very bottom), NOT OVERNIGHT PADDLE

Once you select that option, it will take you to a page that looks like selecting "overnight paddle" permits with two tabs along the top - "start in BWCAW traveling to Canada " and "start in Canada traveling to BWCAW".

Select "starting in BWCAW . . . ", answer "yes" to spending nights in the BWCA, pick your entry point, and that permit will cover you on the way in AND the way out. This covers you spending at least one night in the BWCA on either end, both ends, or more nights. This just recognizes that you are starting and ending in the BWCA with Canada somewhere in between.

The starting in Canada option is for trips that truly begin in Canada (either into BWCA and then back north or a one way trip from Canada into the BWCA).

NO NEED FOR A SECOND PERMIT.

So, it is very simple. And it even gives directions on page 9 of the BWCA Trip Planning Guide that they have linked on Recreation.gov

Please share this info with others who might be planning on adding Quetico to their paddling plans."

Thank you!!! This is very helpful!

Jefflynn06: "The Forest Service has made this much easier than we have been discussing. I just received a call from the BWCA Permit Manager and was given the SIMPLE steps to doing this.

Search for available permits on Recreation.gov
go to "Select permit type" - (overnight paddle, overnight hike, day use motor, etc.)
select "paddle to/from Canada" (option at the very bottom), NOT OVERNIGHT PADDLE

Once you select that option, it will take you to a page that looks like selecting "overnight paddle" permits with two tabs along the top - "start in BWCAW traveling to Canada " and "start in Canada traveling to BWCAW".

Select "starting in BWCAW . . . ", answer "yes" to spending nights in the BWCA, pick your entry point, and that permit will cover you on the way in AND the way out. This covers you spending at least one night in the BWCA on either end, both ends, or more nights. This just recognizes that you are starting and ending in the BWCA with Canada somewhere in between.

The starting in Canada option is for trips that truly begin in Canada (either into BWCA and then back north or a one way trip from Canada into the BWCA).

NO NEED FOR A SECOND PERMIT.

So, it is very simple. And it even gives directions on page 9 of the BWCA Trip Planning Guide that they have linked on Recreation.gov

Please share this info with others who might be planning on adding Quetico to their paddling plans. "

If you pick the start in Canada option, do they say how to get that permit in advance? The rangers at Canoecopia said call the office and they'd mail it. Some years ago.

Jefflynn06:
Search for available permits on Recreation.gov
go to "Select permit type" - (overnight paddle, overnight hike, day use motor, etc.)
select "paddle to/from Canada" (option at the very bottom), NOT OVERNIGHT PADDLE

Once you select that option, it will take you to a page that looks like selecting "overnight paddle" permits with two tabs along the top - "start in BWCAW traveling to Canada " and "start in Canada traveling to BWCAW".

Select "starting in BWCAW . . . ", answer "yes" to spending nights in the BWCA, pick your entry point, and that permit will cover you on the way in AND the way out. This covers you spending at least one night in the BWCA on either end, both ends, or more nights. This just recognizes that you are starting and ending in the BWCA with Canada somewhere in between. "

I took a look at this. Since I already have a permit, I need to figure out how to amend it as all permits for Mudro Lake are gone.

alphabetty: "

Jefflynn06:
Search for available permits on Recreation.gov
go to "Select permit type" - (overnight paddle, overnight hike, day use motor, etc.)
select "paddle to/from Canada" (option at the very bottom), NOT OVERNIGHT PADDLE

Once you select that option, it will take you to a page that looks like selecting "overnight paddle" permits with two tabs along the top - "start in BWCAW traveling to Canada " and "start in Canada traveling to BWCAW".

Select "starting in BWCAW . . . ", answer "yes" to spending nights in the BWCA, pick your entry point, and that permit will cover you on the way in AND the way out. This covers you spending at least one night in the BWCA on either end, both ends, or more nights. This just recognizes that you are starting and ending in the BWCA with Canada somewhere in between. "

I took a look at this. Since I already have a permit, I need to figure out how to amend it as all permits for Mudro Lake are gone."

I dont think you have to change anything. Just use your Mudro permit as is, venture into the Q, and return. My understanding is that it's always been ok and still is. In my opinion, the steps noted are for record keeping, just like asking how long you're staying.

I didn't ask about how you get the permit if you are starting in Canada. Didn't think of that.

I also didn't ask about how to add Quetico on if you already have a permit for the BWCA without the "starting in BWCA into Canada" option. That is a great question since plans to add this could change after one has already secured a BWCA permit.

Seeing how I spoke to the Permit Manager, I will call back to ask those questions too. (The educator in me NEEDS to know to pass along the full information). I will repost when I get answers.

Update:

If you already have an regular overnight paddle permit for an entry point, all you need to do to add Quetico on to the trip is to modify your permit. Go into your Recreation.gov account to modify the permit. There is a question asking if you plan to go into Canada on the details portion (it shows up when you initially book the permit too - I just always said NO so never paid attention to it) and you can check that box. That way the permit that you already have works for the entire trip. No need to release the coveted permit you have and try to get another. Just modify the permit you have.

I forgot to ask about how you get your permit if you are starting in Canada but another post on the Quetico chatboard states that you will still have to watch the videos, contact the USFS and they will conduct the LNT quiz with you via phone, and will mail the permit to you.

Learning lots of new things through these message boards.

jefflynn06... your last post almost implies you can use your BWCA permit in Quetico. Of course, that's not the case.

To overstate the obvious, and it's been mentioned earlier in this thread, Canada is another country and Quetico is not the BWCA. Both are governed differently and the USFS has no jurisdiction.

This conversation has bounced around with needing one permit vs. two if you make a Quetico sandwich out of your trip (starting in the BW, spending a few days in Q, then re-entering the BWCA) and how to legally enter and camp in Quetico on that part of your trip. Hence, the confusion.

If all information is correct, it sounds like your BW permit will allow the a group to camp a few days in the BW, enter Q for a few nights, then re-enter the BW and be legal until you leave. (At least I think that's how I'm reading it.)

However, that brings you back to being legal in Quetico. You must make a reservation for entering Q and you must pick up your permit at a ranger station either the day of your reservation or the day before. Since the most likely ranger station for you to visit would be Prairie Portage, everyone in your group would need RABC permits.

If you were simply going to visit Quetico for the day - say visit a lake to fish, have lunch, explore a bit, etc. - there are legal ways by which to do this, starting with an RABC permit, but it's a process that is somewhat rare. It's best to call the Quetico ranger station in Atikokan and discuss your options with them.

One more thing... after you return to the BW from Q, and after you have finished your trip altogether, don't forget to report yourself back into the US.

It is as you say. I started the process as Jefflynn described and I would be required to check in at PP. Too far, not worth the effort.

Jackfish, I didn't mean to imply that the BWCA permit worked for Quetico and apologize if it reads that way. I only asked about the BWCA permit portion. The person I spoke with reminded me many times to make sure I had the Canadian permits too.

So my entry only involved the US side where one BWCA permit will work for the sandwich trip. The Recreation.gov site allows you to get a BWCA permit and either enter Canada (or start in Canada) but as long as travel is part of one continuous trip, you only need one BWCA permit.

Not knowledgeable at all about the Canadian permits. Hope this clears up my posts.

Quetico has been known to flex the rules and accomodate requests. You might call the Q office and ask. In all likelihood it would require visiting a ranger station in advance, not necessarily easy. The current superintendent likes visitors to have face time with a ranger. You might for instance get a tow boat ride up to PP and back the day before your BWCA entry.

Another difference between Q and BWCA is you are (or were a few years ago when I asked the superintendent) allowed to exit and renter the Q on the same permit.