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Previous Messages:
Author	Message Text
schweady	02/05/2019 11:07AM Blatz: "I think the 2 or 3 people who are have issues with each other here, should just exchange phone numbers. It's a much more efficient way to air your grievances . Plus your internet muscles will have a chance to relax." Amen. Very high noise:info ratio in this thread.
mschi772	02/05/2019 10:31AM EDIT: delete.
flynn	02/05/2019 09:37AM It's just called being an understanding and compassionate person. I'm sorry that identifying this behavior has gotten me labeled as a liberal. I'd like to think conservatives and liberals and everyone in between can be compassionate. The fact that I had to bring up empathy is only due to the perceived need for people to take a step back and consider someone other than themselves. I have a few conservative friends who are very kind people and would have said the same things I did. Anyway, walking away now.
Blatz	02/05/2019 07:34AM I think the 2 or 3 people who are have issues with each other here, should just exchange phone numbers. It's a much more efficient way to air your grievances . Plus your internet muscles will have a chance to relax.
foxfireniner	02/05/2019 07:11AM flynn: "foxfireniner: "flynn: "I think "alt route" was a play on "alt-right" since PaddlinMadeline was imitating the US president. Fake canoes, build a fire wall, collusion, they let you do it, etc. I don't think "alt route" has anything to do with taking a different route in the BWCA in case we can't get the route we want due to everyone starting over with permits. 99% is basically 100% so they can't do much worse right? They're refunding my permits but you don't see me stomping my feet, complaining about people who were stomping their feet. I understand some people took time off; I understand it's annoying, I feel the same way. Surely we can be mature adults about it and wait patiently and put our best foot forward. Say what you want about never changing anything in this world if it ain't broken, but change is good. It's just unfortunate they screwed it up. It happens. Take a deep breath." Is this that "empathy" again? Oh, thats right, never toward Republicans. Well, we will see how this reset and refund goes. " Politics has nothing to do with how I treat other people unless they make it an issue. You keep bringing it up. I have empathy for anyone having to re-acquire their permits, as I am in the same boat. I have empathy for anyone who couldn't get the website to work, because I've been in that boat many times with past internet service launches (for various websites, videogame servers, etc) and I know what it feels like for something that should be available to not be available. If I can't directly relate, I try to imagine how it would feel. Again... politics isn't part of this equation. Unless of course the thing I'm trying to imagine is how someone of a given political affiliation would feel about an inherently political act (like a bill being passed). I just hope they actually do it right the next time. If the site melts down a second time, then I would expect to see some true outrage. lol" First, all this started with fairly benign comments. Then you came at me with "i feel empathy" with an implied "you should too". Ok. I replied with the facts of the case. Those of us with permits have a legal contract with the FS, and they shouldn't break that contract due to their own incompetence. And I said I didn't think they would do it. THen I lament the fact that I was and that the did do it, and PaddlinMadelin comes at me with "you should right a book called "atl route." Whatever. This "I try to have empathy" is claiming a noble position. Then you say to me, "Im in the same boat but you don't see me stomping my feet." Again, claiming a noble position. Claiming the noblest of all sides of a conversation is liberal behavior and it permeates your comments.
Jamie B.	02/04/2019 03:35PM Any insider information? They opening up this week?
Cc26	02/04/2019 03:05PM jeez guys take a break. everyone sounds like a bunch of babies. sh!t happens.
flynn	02/04/2019 03:05PM foxfireniner: "flynn: "I think "alt route" was a play on "alt-right" since PaddlinMadeline was imitating the US president. Fake canoes, build a fire wall, collusion, they let you do it, etc. I don't think "alt route" has anything to do with taking a different route in the BWCA in case we can't get the route we want due to everyone starting over with permits. 99% is basically 100% so they can't do much worse right? They're refunding my permits but you don't see me stomping my feet, complaining about people who were stomping their feet. I understand some people took time off; I understand it's annoying, I feel the same way. Surely we can be mature adults about it and wait patiently and put our best foot forward. Say what you want about never changing anything in this world if it ain't broken, but change is good. It's just unfortunate they screwed it up. It happens. Take a deep breath." Is this that "empathy" again? Oh, thats right, never toward Republicans. Well, we will see how this reset and refund goes. " Politics has nothing to do with how I treat other people unless they make it an issue. You keep bringing it up. I have empathy for anyone having to re-acquire their permits, as I am in the same boat. I have empathy for anyone who couldn't get the website to work, because I've been in that boat many times with past internet service launches (for various websites, videogame servers, etc) and I know what it feels like for something that should be available to not be available. If I can't directly relate, I try to imagine how it would feel. Again... politics isn't part of this equation. Unless of course the thing I'm trying to imagine is how someone of a given political affiliation would feel about an inherently political act (like a bill being passed). I just hope they actually do it right the next time. If the site melts down a second time, then I would expect to see some true outrage. lol
foxfireniner	02/04/2019 01:28PM flynn: "I think "alt route" was a play on "alt-right" since PaddlinMadeline was imitating the US president. Fake canoes, build a fire wall, collusion, they let you do it, etc. I don't think "alt route" has anything to do with taking a different route in the BWCA in case we can't get the route we want due to everyone starting over with permits. 99% is basically 100% so they can't do much worse right? They're refunding my permits but you don't see me stomping my feet, complaining about people who were stomping their feet. I understand some people took time off; I understand it's annoying, I feel the same way. Surely we can be mature adults about it and wait patiently and put our best foot forward. Say what you want about never changing anything in this world if it ain't broken, but change is good. It's just unfortunate they screwed it up. It happens. Take a deep breath." Is this that "empathy" again? Oh, thats right, never toward Republicans. Well, we will see how this reset and refund goes.
flynn	02/04/2019 10:16AM I think "alt route" was a play on "alt-right" since PaddlinMadeline was imitating the US president. Fake canoes, build a fire wall, collusion, they let you do it, etc. I don't think "alt route" has anything to do with taking a different route in the BWCA in case we can't get the route we want due to everyone starting over with permits. 99% is basically 100% so they can't do much worse right? They're refunding my permits but you don't see me stomping my feet, complaining about people who were stomping their feet. I understand some people took time off; I understand it's annoying, I feel the same way. Surely we can be mature adults about it and wait patiently and put our best foot forward. Say what you want about never changing anything in this world if it ain't broken, but change is good. It's just unfortunate they screwed it up. It happens. Take a deep breath.
Swampturtle	02/04/2019 09:52AM I like turtles...
foxfireniner	02/04/2019 08:20AM PaddlinMadeline: "foxfireniner: "PaddlinMadeline: "This is a witch hunt! There was no collusion between certain groups! But if there was collusion it’s not illegal. As far as motor boats go they are “Fake Canoes”! Imagine what a better fire wall would do for the permit process. I’m gonna build that wall and the people in Minneapolis are gonna pay for it! What’s great about going to the BW is you can cook the fish so it’s not sushi. When you have a permit they will let you do it! Lighten up friends. The people of Flint Michigan still don’t have clean water." You should write a book. " Ouch! Very creative. I will call the book “Alt Route”. " What I thought when you said that to me was, "huh?" I threw it back it you thinking perhaps, as the originator, would you appreciate the intricacies of the insult that were somehow lost on me. But, like everyone here, I want the route that I want. Unlike everyone here, I had the route that I wanted. This event explains why children cry. It works. There are enough "Its not Fair" people stomping their feet that the US Forest service decided to throw the permits of admittedly "small number of successful applicants" out. In math, we can explain it thus: This decision takes them from 99% unhappy customers to 100% unhappy customers. Seems smart. Unless, and I gather from your "alt route" book comment, that quite of few of you are actually happier now that others are unhappy. Because "fairness." Congrats.
jhb8426	02/03/2019 12:47AM Don't make me come back there, kids...
tumblehome	02/02/2019 08:42PM Two things. 1. I thank the moderators for not deleting the thread. Sometimes people just need a good keyboard fight I guess. 2. This is the wackiest thread on this site I read in a while. "My Dad is bigger than your Dad" "Oh yeah? Well my Dad could beat your Dad up" "Oh yeah? well my Dad could run right over your Dad with his truck" "Oh yeah? Well....." I think the Polar cortex is causing cabin fever. I go to Quetico so this permit mess don't bother me none.
PaddlinMadeline	02/02/2019 06:22PM foxfireniner: "PaddlinMadeline: "This is a witch hunt! There was no collusion between certain groups! But if there was collusion it’s not illegal. As far as motor boats go they are “Fake Canoes”! Imagine what a better fire wall would do for the permit process. I’m gonna build that wall and the people in Minneapolis are gonna pay for it! What’s great about going to the BW is you can cook the fish so it’s not sushi. When you have a permit they will let you do it! Lighten up friends. The people of Flint Michigan still don’t have clean water." You should write a book. " Ouch! Very creative. I will call the book “Alt Route”.
Boppasteveg	02/02/2019 12:09PM Well said!
foxfireniner	02/02/2019 12:01AM PaddlinMadeline: "This is a witch hunt! There was no collusion between certain groups! But if there was collusion it’s not illegal. As far as motor boats go they are “Fake Canoes”! Imagine what a better fire wall would do for the permit process. I’m gonna build that wall and the people in Minneapolis are gonna pay for it! What’s great about going to the BW is you can cook the fish so it’s not sushi. When you have a permit they will let you do it! Lighten up friends. The people of Flint Michigan still don’t have clean water." You should write a book.
flynn	02/01/2019 04:36PM Here is the tweet from the Superior National Forest Service: https://twitter.com/SuperiorNF/status/1091448511055519745 They will be issuing refunds to all who got permits and re-doing it all. There is no date yet.
PaddlinMadeline	02/01/2019 04:27PM This is a witch hunt! There was no collusion between certain groups! But if there was collusion it’s not illegal. As far as motor boats go they are “Fake Canoes”! Imagine what a better fire wall would do for the permit process. I’m gonna build that wall and the people in Minneapolis are gonna pay for it! What’s great about going to the BW is you can cook the fish so it’s not sushi. When you have a permit they will let you do it! Lighten up friends. The people of Flint Michigan still don’t have clean water.
Trollhunter	02/01/2019 03:36PM 8 mins. ago the USFS posted on their twitter page that they will be reversing all reservations and will soon announce a new date for reservations. I was unable to cut and paste the text here, but you can look it up on their twitter feed. Or, you can click on the link to it on their home page (right hand column in the below link). https://www.fs.usda.gov/superior/
Trollhunter	02/01/2019 09:17AM foxfireniner: "Trollhunter: "And now this “At this time, we are working with the contractor to make sure all of those visitors will get a follow-up email saying that their reservations will be reversed and why. As horrible as that sounds, it must obviously be done,” said Schwaller. From https://www.hibbingmn.com/news/local/bwca-online-permit-system-flunks-out/article_a6a1d0f0-25c7-11e9-9dcc-9f04623eacaf.html" I am trying to figure out which quote came first. Both articles are dated the same day. " Not sure. I posted them as soon as I found them, and they are posted in the order I found them.
foxfireniner	02/01/2019 07:42AM Trollhunter: "And now this “At this time, we are working with the contractor to make sure all of those visitors will get a follow-up email saying that their reservations will be reversed and why. As horrible as that sounds, it must obviously be done,” said Schwaller. From https://www.hibbingmn.com/news/local/bwca-online-permit-system-flunks-out/article_a6a1d0f0-25c7-11e9-9dcc-9f04623eacaf.html" I am trying to figure out which quote came first. Both articles are dated the same day.
Trollhunter	01/31/2019 08:54PM And now this “At this time, we are working with the contractor to make sure all of those visitors will get a follow-up email saying that their reservations will be reversed and why. As horrible as that sounds, it must obviously be done,” said Schwaller. From https://www.hibbingmn.com/news/local/bwca-online-permit-system-flunks-out/article_a6a1d0f0-25c7-11e9-9dcc-9f04623eacaf.html
foxfireniner	01/31/2019 01:10PM Trollhunter: ""The Forest Service hasn't determined yet whether the reservations that were made successfully on Wednesday morning will be honored — or how long it might be until the reservation process is reopened." New quote from MPR https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/01/31/new-bwca-permit-website-shuts-down" Yup, the first step in a climb down is to reset expectations. Notice that the article doesn't even mention Schwaller's reversal comment? "we don't know if we will honor those permits or not" is a lawyerly way of saying Schwaller should have kept her mouth shut.
Trollhunter	01/31/2019 12:33PM "The Forest Service hasn't determined yet whether the reservations that were made successfully on Wednesday morning will be honored — or how long it might be until the reservation process is reopened." New quote from MPR https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/01/31/new-bwca-permit-website-shuts-down
Savage Voyageur	01/31/2019 12:14PM Well that escalated fast.
Selfsuffi	01/31/2019 10:46AM TipsyPaddler: "It worked great for me. I used this link: WWW.Recreation.Nigeria.Com They wanted two credit cards, my banking account numbers, SSN and DOB. But I got the EPs and dates I wanted “no problemo” " Tipsy!! Thank you!!! Worked great for me too AND I got to speak with an actual prince and he is going to wire me a million dollars as soon as he gets my $20,000 deposit to setup the account to deposit the funds. He swears he won't withdraw or spend any of my money....really. LOL I needed a smile with all the mess of the permits and -35 temp in Illinois today.
Blatz	01/31/2019 09:55AM Compared to what most people in this world have to wake up to on a daily bases. Losing your sh#t because you can't get your permit exactly when you want it, is pretty pathetic.
unshavenman	01/31/2019 09:37AM +1. Definitely.
Frenchy19	01/31/2019 09:15AM BearBurrito: "We are all grownups here, let's remember the Oath and try to treat everyone accordingly." Great point.
BearBurrito	01/31/2019 09:01AM We are all grownups here, let's remember the Oath and try to treat everyone accordingly.
walleyewood	01/30/2019 03:17PM foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "mschi772: "Permit day really brought some really classy members out of the woodwork, huh?" Kind of ironic that you sarcastically say "really classy members" when that statement itself is...not classy. " Classier than calling those people what they really are." "those people"...classy." It was a general statement so no one feels singled out, but OK. I think that's enough internet for one day." Not so fast. You outed yourself as a liberal correcting WalleyeWood so when you say "better than calling those people what they really are" you are basically saying that you want to call people of a different political persuasion something worse than not classy. There are 2 types of liberals on here today that have attacked me during the discussion of this situation. The first says I am not "public minded" for not wanting my hard earned reservation to be cancelled. Because its not fair that I got one. Then I get another guy talking around the same issue but saying "not everyone was able to..." Again, its not fair. Right. the Democrat party platform..."its not fair!" then there are the ones who say the Government isn't responsible for the failure, private industry is. "Its a contractor!" We all knew who you meant when you said "those people."" Oh boy. I never "outed" anything. I said "those people" but really it was just walleyewood making this political when it isn't political at all. I was not referencing any political affiliation walleyewood may have had and I certainly wasn't trying to say conservatives are at fault for this. I specifically said _it is not political_. I don't identify as a conservative or liberal. My beliefs are unique to me and my understanding of the world and life itself, and no one label can categorize those beliefs. The fault for the website design goes to the people who designed it, even if the folks who run Recreation.gov signed off on it, but it is the responsibility of those folks to own it and to fix it. If they didn't build in automatic load balancing and server spinup for high demand, they should have. The fault is shared between them, but the contractors will have consequences if they didn't meet all availability/redundancy requirements the statement of work. I got my permits and I'm on the fence about it being "fair" to do a full reset. On one hand, if some people did have a better connection to the website, or managed to slip in (like I did), but most people could not, then I think it makes sense to put everyone back on a level playing field. It's a false start. On the other hand, I am thankful I got my permits, and don't want to have to try to get them again, especially if it will be just as messy as this time. Let people say something is fair or not fair. Fairness knows no political affiliation. I try to imagine myself as someone who would benefit from something, and someone who would be negatively impacted by said thing, and how I would feel about it. I try to put myself in the shoes of people on EVERY side (not just 2 sides to everything) and see how I would feel. It's called empathy and it makes me care about how people other than me feel." Really, I think it comes down to what kind of permit you got. I doubt the paddlers crashed the system. It was probably the motor permit guys. Like I said elsewhere, if I lived in that area, I would be trying to get my reservations for the Big 3 summer weekends. Everybody in northern minnesota with a classic lund and 15 hp motor was probably trying to get those dates. the issue I was reading is that Minneapolis and other large population centers had a bigger pipe to the internet so no one in Northern Minnesota was getting motor permits. I think that is the issue. " And you can add the groups of people who purposely tried to crash the site by having their minions try to buy up permits with the intent of never using them.
walleyewood	01/30/2019 03:14PM flynn: "foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "mschi772: "Permit day really brought some really classy members out of the woodwork, huh?" Kind of ironic that you sarcastically say "really classy members" when that statement itself is...not classy. " Classier than calling those people what they really are." "those people"...classy." It was a general statement so no one feels singled out, but OK. I think that's enough internet for one day." Not so fast. You outed yourself as a liberal correcting WalleyeWood so when you say "better than calling those people what they really are" you are basically saying that you want to call people of a different political persuasion something worse than not classy. There are 2 types of liberals on here today that have attacked me during the discussion of this situation. The first says I am not "public minded" for not wanting my hard earned reservation to be cancelled. Because its not fair that I got one. Then I get another guy talking around the same issue but saying "not everyone was able to..." Again, its not fair. Right. the Democrat party platform..."its not fair!" then there are the ones who say the Government isn't responsible for the failure, private industry is. "Its a contractor!" We all knew who you meant when you said "those people."" Oh boy. I never "outed" anything. I said "those people" but really it was just walleyewood making this political when it isn't political at all. I was not referencing any political affiliation walleyewood may have had and I certainly wasn't trying to say conservatives are at fault for this. I specifically said _it is not political_. I don't identify as a conservative or liberal. My beliefs are unique to me and my understanding of the world and life itself, and no one label can categorize those beliefs. The fault for the website design goes to the people who designed it, even if the folks who run Recreation.gov signed off on it, but it is the responsibility of those folks to own it and to fix it. If they didn't build in automatic load balancing and server spinup for high demand, they should have. The fault is shared between them, but the contractors will have consequences if they didn't meet all availability/redundancy requirements the statement of work. I got my permits and I'm on the fence about it being "fair" to do a full reset. On one hand, if some people did have a better connection to the website, or managed to slip in (like I did), but most people could not, then I think it makes sense to put everyone back on a level playing field. It's a false start. On the other hand, I am thankful I got my permits, and don't want to have to try to get them again, especially if it will be just as messy as this time. Let people say something is fair or not fair. Fairness knows no political affiliation. I try to imagine myself as someone who would benefit from something, and someone who would be negatively impacted by said thing, and how I would feel about it. I try to put myself in the shoes of people on EVERY side (not just 2 sides to everything) and see how I would feel. It's called empathy and it makes me care about how people other than me feel." Give us a break Flynn! $ walks and BS talks - cancel your transaction to purchase your permits....you can't have it both ways...put your $ where you mouth is.
foxfireniner	01/30/2019 02:55PM And I don't make decisions based on empathy. I make my determinations by evaluating the situation and the walking through the process. Right now, the problem recreation.gov has is that they have met the 3 requirements for a legal contract: offer, acceptance, and consideration. Having successfully gotten my dates, I meet the requirements. They offered to let me canoe and camp in their wilderness for 7 days for the $86. I said 'yes' while applying on the site. Offer and acceptance. Consideration is the $86 they have already taken out of my account. We have a legal contract. The Judge Advocate General for USFS has probably already scolded the program manager for saying she was going to revoke the already issued permits aka legal contracts. For the people who were unable to get through the system, the USFS cannot feasibly identify who was harmed or not. Consideration was not given. And there likely isn't a record of who logged in and failed to complete. On the other hand, people who did get through system are easily identified and their harm can be calculated. "I had my permit revoked but have not received my refund." That is identifiable harm. Or take the situation we are in. We "have" a permit. Or do we?? We haven't received any official notification that our permits are in danger. If I weren't trolling the internet, I wouldn't even know the statement had been issued. My email account only has my confirmation emails in it. Say I start making irreversible plans with the knowledge that I have a permit but then they take 2 weeks to cancel and refund, and notify me? The next registration period opens up and then...I don't get the dates I want. That is real harm. Right now, the people without permits are in a better position than we are. We have money missing from our accounts and are unable to even adjust our plans. Anyway, you prefer to side with an unknowable group of people that you feel empathy for while knowingly harming a different and identifiable group of people. And that is empathy. Having the feelz for the unknowable Have-nots and violating the rule of law at the expense of the known Haves (you can insert "the RICH" or the "white patriarchy" in there and the sentence still works), seems fairly populist and socialist, to me. But, I am just an internet troll, what do I know?
foxfireniner	01/30/2019 02:42PM flynn: "foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "mschi772: "Permit day really brought some really classy members out of the woodwork, huh?" Kind of ironic that you sarcastically say "really classy members" when that statement itself is...not classy. " Classier than calling those people what they really are." "those people"...classy." It was a general statement so no one feels singled out, but OK. I think that's enough internet for one day." Not so fast. You outed yourself as a liberal correcting WalleyeWood so when you say "better than calling those people what they really are" you are basically saying that you want to call people of a different political persuasion something worse than not classy. There are 2 types of liberals on here today that have attacked me during the discussion of this situation. The first says I am not "public minded" for not wanting my hard earned reservation to be cancelled. Because its not fair that I got one. Then I get another guy talking around the same issue but saying "not everyone was able to..." Again, its not fair. Right. the Democrat party platform..."its not fair!" then there are the ones who say the Government isn't responsible for the failure, private industry is. "Its a contractor!" We all knew who you meant when you said "those people."" Oh boy. I never "outed" anything. I said "those people" but really it was just walleyewood making this political when it isn't political at all. I was not referencing any political affiliation walleyewood may have had and I certainly wasn't trying to say conservatives are at fault for this. I specifically said _it is not political_. I don't identify as a conservative or liberal. My beliefs are unique to me and my understanding of the world and life itself, and no one label can categorize those beliefs. The fault for the website design goes to the people who designed it, even if the folks who run Recreation.gov signed off on it, but it is the responsibility of those folks to own it and to fix it. If they didn't build in automatic load balancing and server spinup for high demand, they should have. The fault is shared between them, but the contractors will have consequences if they didn't meet all availability/redundancy requirements the statement of work. I got my permits and I'm on the fence about it being "fair" to do a full reset. On one hand, if some people did have a better connection to the website, or managed to slip in (like I did), but most people could not, then I think it makes sense to put everyone back on a level playing field. It's a false start. On the other hand, I am thankful I got my permits, and don't want to have to try to get them again, especially if it will be just as messy as this time. Let people say something is fair or not fair. Fairness knows no political affiliation. I try to imagine myself as someone who would benefit from something, and someone who would be negatively impacted by said thing, and how I would feel about it. I try to put myself in the shoes of people on EVERY side (not just 2 sides to everything) and see how I would feel. It's called empathy and it makes me care about how people other than me feel." Really, I think it comes down to what kind of permit you got. I doubt the paddlers crashed the system. It was probably the motor permit guys. Like I said elsewhere, if I lived in that area, I would be trying to get my reservations for the Big 3 summer weekends. Everybody in northern minnesota with a classic lund and 15 hp motor was probably trying to get those dates. the issue I was reading is that Minneapolis and other large population centers had a bigger pipe to the internet so no one in Northern Minnesota was getting motor permits. I think that is the issue.
flynn	01/30/2019 02:24PM foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "mschi772: "Permit day really brought some really classy members out of the woodwork, huh?" Kind of ironic that you sarcastically say "really classy members" when that statement itself is...not classy. " Classier than calling those people what they really are." "those people"...classy." It was a general statement so no one feels singled out, but OK. I think that's enough internet for one day." Not so fast. You outed yourself as a liberal correcting WalleyeWood so when you say "better than calling those people what they really are" you are basically saying that you want to call people of a different political persuasion something worse than not classy. There are 2 types of liberals on here today that have attacked me during the discussion of this situation. The first says I am not "public minded" for not wanting my hard earned reservation to be cancelled. Because its not fair that I got one. Then I get another guy talking around the same issue but saying "not everyone was able to..." Again, its not fair. Right. the Democrat party platform..."its not fair!" then there are the ones who say the Government isn't responsible for the failure, private industry is. "Its a contractor!" We all knew who you meant when you said "those people."" Oh boy. I never "outed" anything. I said "those people" but really it was just walleyewood making this political when it isn't political at all. I was not referencing any political affiliation walleyewood may have had and I certainly wasn't trying to say conservatives are at fault for this. I specifically said _it is not political_. I don't identify as a conservative or liberal. My beliefs are unique to me and my understanding of the world and life itself, and no one label can categorize those beliefs. The fault for the website design goes to the people who designed it, even if the folks who run Recreation.gov signed off on it, but it is the responsibility of those folks to own it and to fix it. If they didn't build in automatic load balancing and server spinup for high demand, they should have. The fault is shared between them, but the contractors will have consequences if they didn't meet all availability/redundancy requirements the statement of work. I got my permits and I'm on the fence about it being "fair" to do a full reset. On one hand, if some people did have a better connection to the website, or managed to slip in (like I did), but most people could not, then I think it makes sense to put everyone back on a level playing field. It's a false start. On the other hand, I am thankful I got my permits, and don't want to have to try to get them again, especially if it will be just as messy as this time. Let people say something is fair or not fair. Fairness knows no political affiliation. I try to imagine myself as someone who would benefit from something, and someone who would be negatively impacted by said thing, and how I would feel about it. I try to put myself in the shoes of people on EVERY side (not just 2 sides to everything) and see how I would feel. It's called empathy and it makes me care about how people other than me feel.
Trollhunter	01/30/2019 02:21PM Holy Crap! Way off topic here. Everyone is upset but this does not need to go down the path of internet trolling. Come on we are grownups, so keep on topic.
walleyewood	01/30/2019 02:20PM foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "mschi772: "Permit day really brought some really classy members out of the woodwork, huh?" Kind of ironic that you sarcastically say "really classy members" when that statement itself is...not classy. " Classier than calling those people what they really are." "those people"...classy." It was a general statement so no one feels singled out, but OK. I think that's enough internet for one day." Not so fast. You outed yourself as a liberal correcting WalleyeWood so when you say "better than calling those people what they really are" you are basically saying that you want to call people of a different political persuasion something worse than not classy. There are 2 types of liberals on here today that have attacked me during the discussion of this situation. The first says I am not "public minded" for not wanting my hard earned reservation to be cancelled. Because its not fair that I got one. Then I get another guy talking around the same issue but saying "not everyone was able to..." Again, its not fair. Right. the Democrat party platform..."its not fair!" then there are the ones who say the Government isn't responsible for the failure, private industry is. "Its a contractor!" We all knew who you meant when you said "those people."" firefox is on fire!!
foxfireniner	01/30/2019 02:04PM flynn: "foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "mschi772: "Permit day really brought some really classy members out of the woodwork, huh?" Kind of ironic that you sarcastically say "really classy members" when that statement itself is...not classy. " Classier than calling those people what they really are." "those people"...classy." It was a general statement so no one feels singled out, but OK. I think that's enough internet for one day." Not so fast. You outed yourself as a liberal correcting WalleyeWood so when you say "better than calling those people what they really are" you are basically saying that you want to call people of a different political persuasion something worse than not classy. There are 2 types of liberals on here today that have attacked me during the discussion of this situation. The first says I am not "public minded" for not wanting my hard earned reservation to be cancelled. Because its not fair that I got one. Then I get another guy talking around the same issue but saying "not everyone was able to..." Again, its not fair. Right. the Democrat party platform..."its not fair!" then there are the ones who say the Government isn't responsible for the failure, private industry is. "Its a contractor!" We all knew who you meant when you said "those people."
flynn	01/30/2019 02:01PM foxfireniner: "flynn: "foxfireniner: "mschi772: "Permit day really brought some really classy members out of the woodwork, huh?" Kind of ironic that you sarcastically say "really classy members" when that statement itself is...not classy. " Classier than calling those people what they really are." "those people"...classy." It was a general statement so no one feels singled out, but OK. I think that's enough internet for one day.
foxfireniner	01/30/2019 01:57PM flynn: "foxfireniner: "mschi772: "Permit day really brought some really classy members out of the woodwork, huh?" Kind of ironic that you sarcastically say "really classy members" when that statement itself is...not classy. " Classier than calling those people what they really are." "those people"...classy.
flynn	01/30/2019 01:51PM foxfireniner: "mschi772: "Permit day really brought some really classy members out of the woodwork, huh?" Kind of ironic that you sarcastically say "really classy members" when that statement itself is...not classy. " Classier than calling those people what they really are.
foxfireniner	01/30/2019 01:44PM mschi772: "Permit day really brought some really classy members out of the woodwork, huh?" Kind of ironic that you sarcastically say "really classy members" when that statement itself is...not classy.
mschi772	01/30/2019 01:11PM Permit day really brought some really classy members out of the woodwork, huh?
walleyewood	01/30/2019 01:06PM flynn: "walleyewood: "you won't be singing serenity sitting at home this summer without a permit -- new liberal members of Congress are likely to blame - shutting down the wilderness for all to enjoy. " You know liberals are in favor of conservation and nature right? There's no "shutting down" of the wilderness.... lol....... not to mention it was already answered that the government would not affect permits. Now that we know the system can't handle the load and the USFS had to get involved, it is possible that the shutdown would have impacted things. Let's not blame the BWCA permit reservation system problems on a specific political affiliation, mmkay? Keep that crap to yourself. Amazing how some people can't wait to blame any problem they possibly can on a political group that they disagree with." 10-4 N Pelosi lover!
flynn	01/30/2019 12:36PM walleyewood: "you won't be singing serenity sitting at home this summer without a permit -- new liberal members of Congress are likely to blame - shutting down the wilderness for all to enjoy. " You know liberals are in favor of conservation and nature right? There's no "shutting down" of the wilderness.... lol....... not to mention it was already answered that the government would not affect permits. Now that we know the system can't handle the load and the USFS had to get involved, it is possible that the shutdown would have impacted things. Let's not blame the BWCA permit reservation system problems on a specific political affiliation, mmkay? Keep that crap to yourself. Amazing how some people can't wait to blame any problem they possibly can on a political group that they disagree with.
walleyewood	01/30/2019 12:28PM you won't be singing serenity sitting at home this summer without a permit -- new liberal members of Congress are likely to blame - shutting down the wilderness for all to enjoy.
wrestlencanoe	01/30/2019 11:42AM Some things are just out of our control. Serenity Now Serenity Now Serenity Now
K52	01/30/2019 11:37AM They had how long to get this right? Heads should roll but what you want to bet no one will be held accountable .Fubar. The lottery looks pretty good right about now.
foxfireniner	01/30/2019 11:18AM egknuti: "Any permits issued will be invalidated. Site is shut down. Hopefully open tomorrow." Like I said on the other page, I sat here fro 2 hours trying get the site to work and finally got my dates and EP. It is not fair to me, IMO, to cancel my reservation. Now imagine how angry I will be if they do cancel my reservation, after this launch debacle and the time I spent, and then I don't get the dates I want.
cyclones30	01/30/2019 11:12AM egknuti: "Any permits issued will be invalidated. Site is shut down. Hopefully open tomorrow." Until I see something in my inbox saying that I'll assume mine are still good. Wonder if I'll get my refund properly or if that will break too
egknuti	01/30/2019 10:53AM Any permits issued will be invalidated. Site is shut down. Hopefully open tomorrow.
greywolf33	01/30/2019 10:49AM TipsyPaddler: "It worked great for me. I used this link: WWW.Recreation.Nigeria.Com They wanted two credit cards, my banking account numbers, SSN and DOB. But I got the EPs and dates I wanted “no problemo” " Whaaa? No prepaid Visa cards or iTunes gift cards required? I think I got ripped off.
TipsyPaddler	01/30/2019 09:56AM It worked great for me. I used this link: WWW.Recreation.Nigeria.Com They wanted two credit cards, my banking account numbers, SSN and DOB. But I got the EPs and dates I wanted “no problemo”
cyclones30	01/30/2019 09:41AM Bumstead: "we seriously crashed the site......crazy. It's not like there are a million of us hitting it this morning. Do the outfitters lock in permits through the site too?" Yes, everyone uses same site
Bumstead	01/30/2019 09:28AM we seriously crashed the site......crazy. It's not like there are a million of us hitting it this morning. Do the outfitters lock in permits through the site too?
brux	01/30/2019 09:26AM Just got in, but it’s showing no permits available. It maybe they weren’t able to have it ready to go prior to the shutdown?
recreation.gov	01/30/2019 09:23AM Same here....maybe their mainframe 'froze'!?
brux	01/30/2019 09:22AM Looks like the systems crashed and/or can’t handle the volume.
cyclones30	01/30/2019 09:22AM Good here, was logged in and then hit refresh right at 9
MikeinMpls	01/30/2019 09:22AM Same here. Crash, then reload, the "closed," the I get to the lake page, then it stalls and crashes... ...I so f&%*king pissed. Mike
lundojam	01/30/2019 09:21AM I was on for a second, had a few boxes checked, and then nothing. BBBOOOOOO! Not a huge shock though.
Goldenbadger	01/30/2019 09:16AM Same here. It’s ticking me off. I have limited time today to deal with this. But I suspected this would happen.
Bumstead	01/30/2019 09:14AM Well, am I the only one that can't get on the site to reserve a permit at 9:00 a.m. CST? Says 'Registration Closed'....and the government is not shut down :-)