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FuzzyBadger
member (12)member
 
03/01/2018 08:41PM  
Hello fellow paddlers.
I have posted a version of this on other forums, but have not found the depth of info I am searching for. I am new to this forum and have read a few, very informative posts by Hans Solo and Canoester regarding Wenonah canoes, i.e. the Odyessey. So, I am hoping they and others will chime in.
I'm looking for whatever information you may be able to provide, on a 1979 Winonah "Built-Up Jensen". I have been unable to find any mention of this canoe anywhere on the internet.
Winonah said that it was built as a racer, and built 2" taller for big water. (Taller than what? I forgot to ask.)
It is a tandem, 18'-6", Kevlar 49, skin coat of polyester resin, 54.6 lbs. (on my digital scale). It has a center bottom brace from almost bow to stern and no ribs. There are three thwarts. Each thwart has a centered vertical support that is attached to the center bottom brace. There seems to be zero rocker. There are also 2 wooden boards positioned on edge and resined into the bottom, just in front of the stern seat, about where a rear paddlers feet would rest. I have no idea what these are for.
Has anyone heard of this boat?
Does anyone have any documentation or advertising published during the time it was in production?
Has anyone ever paddled one?
Is it a prototype or a predecessor to another model? I've been told, that it may be similar to an Odyssey.
I believe it is in rather good condition and would like to refinish it. But, first I will have a local canoe repair person evaluate the Kevlar and advise me on repair procedures.
I am hoping that it will make a suitable ADK tripper.
Thanks!
Fuzz
 
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Canoe42
distinguished member(1028)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/01/2018 09:12PM  
"There are also 2 wooden boards positioned on edge and resined into the bottom, just in front of the stern seat, about where a rear paddlers feet would rest".

I have the same thing in one of my Sawyer Cruisers. It is for attaching a dowel across to be used as a foot brace.
 
Banksiana
distinguished member(2310)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/01/2018 10:31PM  
Looks to me that you might have a built up Whitewater II. A great tripping boat, the predecessor of the MNII. The single rib with "shocks" to the thwarts was a lay up Wenonah used for "whitewater" boats. The Whitewater II was a Jensen designed "downriver racer". I don't know if the foot brace was standard or an option on that era Wenonah boats.

Nice canoe.
 
campnfish
distinguished member (293)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/01/2018 10:59PM  
Is it the pictures, or is there not alot of room up front?
 
FuzzyBadger
member (12)member
 
03/01/2018 11:18PM  
Canoe42
That makes sense. I wonder how it was attached?
 
FuzzyBadger
member (12)member
 
03/01/2018 11:21PM  
Banksiana,
Thanks for the info.
Do you think "Built-Up" refers to it being 2" taller than a normal WWII?
It being a race design, would you say it's initial stability might be a bit squirrely as a flat water tripper, due to its roundish bottom?
Thanks.
Fuzz
 
FuzzyBadger
member (12)member
 
03/01/2018 11:34PM  
campnfish: "Is it the pictures, or is there not alot of room up front?"
campnfish,
The seat is slid about mid way on the tubes in the pics. Also, the pic was taken from a low angle, which I think gives the perception of little room. In actuality, there is plenty of room.
 
03/02/2018 12:02AM  
Yup looks sort of like a Ww2 but deeper in the stern, maybe not as radical but Basically a race design. The lack of any rocker is a negative for me, yet I’ve paddled a version of this canoe most everywhere in the bwca. It was my brothers canoe, he had paddled it twice to Hudson’s bay. Your boat looks like a prototype,they had issues with the ribs staying in place. In those days ketter canoeing was the place for canoe buffs. They were on the Mississippi River, you could test paddle all their canoes, Carl Jensen was right down the street making new designs in his garage. Best of all they welcomed us to bring in our busted canoes to help them design a better product. This canoe should be fine for most tripping, myself I prefer an inch or two of rocker.
 
Banksiana
distinguished member(2310)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/02/2018 08:34AM  
Built up being a couple of more inches of freeboard. The WhitewaterII is a great tripping boat and is nearly identical to the Minnesota II. Piragis sold lots of them as flatwater tripping canoes. My understanding is that the Minnesota II was brought into being a year or so after the Whitewater II was discontinued as a response to interest in the WWII hull as a B-dub tripper- the Odyssey not quite fitting the niche. Piragis claimed that the hull is essentially unchanged between WWII and MNII.
 
FuzzyBadger
member (12)member
 
03/02/2018 09:24AM  
Banksiana
Huh...
If “Built-Up” refers to more freeboard, and It makes sense that it does, I wonder why Wenonah only refered to it as a BU Jensen and not a BU WWII or BU Odyssey?
What is a “B-dub tripper”?
 
Banksiana
distinguished member(2310)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/02/2018 10:02AM  
B-dub tripper=boundary waters tripper.

1979 might be previous to the naming of the WWII, it might be a pre-production model. If you pulled the serial number Wenonah might be able to give you more information. It looks very much like a taller version of the WWII. Eugene Jensen did a lot of designs for Wenonah- some great hulls.
 
Banksiana
distinguished member(2310)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/02/2018 10:26AM  
Another thought, are you sure of the length?
One of the best hulls Wenonah ever built was a Jensen designed 18' boat sold for years as the "18 Jensen"- primarily built as a "citizen racer" it was a great tripping hull for folks that traveled light. It was quick, nimble and surprisingly seaworthy to the limit of its relatively low freeboard. If your hull is 18' it would make sense that Wenonah referred to it as a "built up" Jensen.
 
FuzzyBadger
member (12)member
 
03/02/2018 04:37PM  
 
FuzzyBadger
member (12)member
 
03/02/2018 04:37PM  
Banksiana
It is definitely 18'-6".
I'm going to call Wenonah again to see if I can get any more information than they gave me the first time.
Thanks for your input.
Fuzz
 
03/02/2018 08:04PM  

I'm not sure where the "built up" description came from. It's not a term I've commonly heard. Nevertheless, it's possible that the canoe in question is a Wenonah Whitewater X. The Whitewater X was essentially a deeper Whitewater II and/or Odyssey. The Whitewater X, Whitewater II, Odyssey, and the Minnesota II share similar design DNA so to speak. (The catalog pages below show the specifications.)

Judging by the pictures, it's doubtful it's a Whitewater XX. The Whitewater XX had a much more radical hull and was a very rare animal. The Whitewater X was eventually replaced in the catalog by the Itasca as the big volume tripper in the late 80's. The re-introduction of the Whitewater II as the Minnesota II didn't leave room in Wenonah's catalog for the Whitewater X either.

The Minnesota II eventually bumped the Odyssey from the catalog pages as well. That being said, Wenonah most likely has all of the molds for the aforementioned canoes laying around and could probably build any of them upon request.

The Center-Rib lay-up and the Cross-Rib lay-up were phased out in the early 2000's in lieu of the "Flex-Core" construction. The Center-Rib and Cross-Rib lay-ups are also described below. As Banksiana mentioned, the Center-Rib lay-up was essentially designed for whitewater use. Ironically, my Kevlar Jensen 18 has the Center-Rib lay-up, which is peculiar for a flat-water Cruiser class/citizen racer tandem canoe. I bought my Jensen 18 used, so I had no choice in the construction.

Wenonah solo canoes also featured the Center-Rib lay-up at that time as well, but without the shock absorbers. Wenonah didn't put the shocks in the solos, because they claimed the solo paddler essentially acted as the shock absorber and/or the hull stiffing component. My 1988 Kevlar Jensen C1W is constructed with the Center-Rib lay-up.

As far as the wooden strips, it's as Canoe42 described. I've included a photo below of the "old style" Sawyer DY Special seat and foot-brace assembly. My 1982 "Goldenglass" DY Special has the same seat and foot-brace set-up, although the picture I've posted is just a random picture I found on the Web. It should give you an idea of how the wooden strips are put in to facilitate a foot-brace.

Hans Solo

 
03/02/2018 09:11PM  
campnfish: "Is it the pictures, or is there not alot of room up front?" The slider seat is moved all the way forward
 
03/02/2018 09:13PM  
Banksiana: "Another thought, are you sure of the length?
One of the best hulls Wenonah ever built was a Jensen designed 18' boat sold for years as the "18 Jensen"- primarily built as a "citizen racer" it was a great tripping hull for folks that traveled light. It was quick, nimble and surprisingly seaworthy to the limit of its relatively low freeboard. If your hull is 18' it would make sense that Wenonah referred to it as a "built up" Jensen."

I had a Jensen 18. The best tandem canoe I ever owned. Tripped in it often.Citizen raced with it as well. Had a case of sellers remorse when I sold it. I think you can still special order one.
 
FuzzyBadger
member (12)member
 
03/03/2018 03:41PM  
HansSolo
Thank you for taking the time to respond and including the catalog pages. They and your comments were very helpful. I have created a spreadsheet to better keep track of the details of each design and to compare one against the other. Hopefully, I can figure out what I have here.
Having done that, I can tell you that mine (Built Up Jensen) seem to be a tad bit narrower than the WW X. (See below)
it is also similar to the Odyssey. However, mine has a bit more free board and weighs a couple of pounds less.

Built Up Jensen vs WW X

Hull width at front thwart: 25" vs 30.5"

Max gunwale width at center thwart: 31.75" vs 35.5"

Hull width at rear thwart: 28" vs 31"

Distance center thwart to rear thwart: 28" vs 29"

Weight: 54.6 lbs. vs 60 lbs.

For all intents and purposes, most other dimensions are the same.

As I mentioned above, the catalog pages were very helpful. Would you happen to have catalog pages for any of these other models? I know that Clipper makes the WW II. But, they don't list all of the dimensions that Wenonah did for the WW X.

White Water II - Odyssey - Itasca

Thanks again for your help. I really do appreciate it.
Fuzz
 
Banksiana
distinguished member(2310)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/03/2018 08:39PM  
Note the photo of the steep portage on the Kopka river in the Wenonah catalogue.
 
FuzzyBadger
member (12)member
 
03/03/2018 09:42PM  
Banksiana: "Note the photo of the steep portage on the Kopka river in the Wenonah catalogue. "

Damn!
 
MReid
distinguished member (272)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/04/2018 07:11AM  
Has anyone come across a Jensen WW III? I have one, made by Clipper, but have never seen any reference to it. It seems similar to the WW X--fuller than the WW II. Nice tripping boat.
 
03/06/2018 02:29PM  

FuzzyBadger: "Hans Solo, would you happen to have catalog pages for any of these other models? I know that Clipper makes the WW II. But, they don't list all of the dimensions that Wenonah did for the WW X.

White Water II - Odyssey - Itasca

Fuzz"


Despite having numerous spec sheets, vintage catalogs, and articles from various paddling periodicals on file, my information about the Whitewater II is almost non-existent. Despite my research, detailed spec sheets or catalog pages are hard to come by. Sorry Fuzz!

I can tell you that the Whitewater II was the predecessor the Minnesota II and the Odyssey. Gene Jensen created the Odyssey and Minnesota II after the molds for the original Whitewater II went bad. It's also my understanding that the Minnesota II's hull was also tweaked a bit to be a bit more user friendly than the original Whitewater II. Although the Odyssey and the Minnesota II are very similar in design, (especially after Gene Jensen slimmed down the bow flair in the Odyssey in 1988), the Odyssey is slighter more narrow at the 4" waterline than the . I've included a few additional catalog pages for comparison below.

Looking at the pictures of your "built-up Jensen", it's apparent to me that it's a pre-1980 manufactured canoe. The decals and the foot-brace assembly tell me it was probably produced in the mid to late 1970's.

As far as the dimensions; measurements of the bow, center, and stern depth would be a better indicator as to how similar it is to either the Whitewater X, Odyssey, or Minnesota II. It's clearly not an Itasca, because the Itasca is 19' long, has a rather radical stern gunnel "tuck", and wasn't available until 1989. The measurements for the thwart distances, the gunnel placement, and therefore the gunnel widths, as well as the hull weight, can also vary somewhat from each production run to the next too.

Wenonah has been known to produce some models with a very short catalog life, so it might also be some short lived, obscure model they only produced for a year or two. For example, does anyone remember the Moccasin or the Whisper solo canoes? I know Butthead would know about the Moccasin because he owned one! :-)

Hans Solo

 
FuzzyBadger
member (12)member
 
03/06/2018 03:03PM  
Thanks again Hans Solo.
I spoke with Wenonah today and was told that the Built Up Jensen was built for less than 4 years. Mine is definitely a 1979 model. Wenonah also said they don’t have much in the way of documentation on the canoe. The person I spoke with, said she would ask Mike C. if he could provide any more information and get back to me. She thought it preceded the WWII and was probably related to the Standard Class Racer.
Fuzz
 
03/06/2018 03:06PM  

As far as the Odyssey's flared bow, (or bull nose" as we refereed to it at Rutabaga), the pictures below may show that better. The two pictures on the left are from a 1984 Canoe Magazine article about Wabakimi and the Kopka River and show the "bull nose" of the original Odyssey. The pictures on the right is of my 1988 Kevlar Cross-Rib Odyssey with the redesigned and slimmer bow. Judging by your pictures, your "built-up Jensen" doesn't seem to have the flared bow.

Hans Solo

 
03/06/2018 08:13PM  

FuzzyBadger: "Thanks again Hans Solo.
I spoke with Wenonah today and was told that the Built Up Jensen was built for less than 4 years. Mine is definitely a 1979 model. Wenonah also said they don’t have much in the way of documentation on the canoe. The person I spoke with, said she would ask Mike C. if he could provide any more information and get back to me. She thought it preceded the WWII and was probably related to the Standard Class Racer.
Fuzz"


That's not surprising! As I mentioned; Wenonah, as well as some other canoe manufacturers, sometimes have limited or short term releases of various canoe models for one reason or another.

Hans Solo
 
Canoe42
distinguished member(1028)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/06/2018 08:57PM  
That's what I love about HansSolo a man of few word.
 
03/06/2018 09:02PM  

Canoe42: "That's what I love about HansSolo a man of few word."

I'm just trying to give bwca.com members their money's worth Dave! :-)

Hans Solo
 
FuzzyBadger
member (12)member
 
03/07/2018 05:59AM  
And, I for one, appreciate that Hans Solo.
It’s beginning to look as though this investigation has reached a conclusion. Unless Mike C. has something else to add, I don’t know if there is anything left to learn here. Only thing left to do is to put it in the water and see if it will or won’t make a suitable tripper. I thank everyone for their help.
Fuzz
 
Cascadian
 
03/26/2018 08:33PM  
I usually just lurk here but this topic got my interest. I paddled/ tripped/ DR raced the WWII of that vintage. My youngest son was almost born in one! (Before becoming a We-No-nah dealer). Center rib w/shocks. Same stern foot brace arrangement but the bow on mine flared to about 2”...
I’ve raced strippers that Gene built himself. And as far as designs coming and going he was always striving for the holy grail of efficiency and we-no-nah fielded many of his latest efforts. Amazing guy and awesome achievements in designs.
My notes on the WWII are : 18’ 6” LOA - beam 33”. WL 32”. - bow 23”. Center 15”.

I actually just redesigned on cad and built a stripper pretty close to the original WWII but 1” lower throughout.

 
Leebobaugh
member (6)member
 
03/27/2018 07:27PM  
FuzzyBadger: "Hello fellow paddlers.
I have posted a version of this on other forums, but have not found the depth of info I am searching for. I am new to this forum and have read a few, very informative posts by Hans Solo and Canoester regarding Wenonah canoes, i.e. the Odyessey. So, I am hoping they and others will chime in.
I'm looking for whatever information you may be able to provide, on a 1979 Winonah "Built-Up Jensen". I have been unable to find any mention of this canoe anywhere on the internet.
Winonah said that it was built as a racer, and built 2" taller for big water. (Taller than what? I forgot to ask.)
It is a tandem, 18'-6", Kevlar 49, skin coat of polyester resin, 54.6 lbs. (on my digital scale). It has a center bottom brace from almost bow to stern and no ribs. There are three thwarts. Each thwart has a centered vertical support that is attached to the center bottom brace. There seems to be zero rocker. There are also 2 wooden boards positioned on edge and resined into the bottom, just in front of the stern seat, about where a rear paddlers feet would rest. I have no idea what these are for.
Has anyone heard of this boat?
Does anyone have any documentation or advertising published during the time it was in production?
Has anyone ever paddled one?
Is it a prototype or a predecessor to another model? I've been told, that it may be similar to an Odyssey.
I believe it is in rather good condition and would like to refinish it. But, first I will have a local canoe repair person evaluate the Kevlar and advise me on repair procedures.
I am hoping that it will make a suitable ADK tripper.
Thanks!
Fuzz
"


Looks like you're the guy to ask.....I'm rehabbing a '73 cruiser there was stove in slightly between the center yoke and stern thwart, which was missing....be great if you had the beam at the rear thwart...
Looks like you put in a keel....is that fiberglassed foam? Been thinking i should so somthing similiar on a 45 year old boat....also you can see the weave on the inside bottom at stern, but it feels perfectly smooth....is that just paint?
And on your boat you put in vertical braces from thwart to keel, might that be an idea to consider on my boat since its so old?

Help would greatly appreciated?

 
BPD
member (23)member
 
11/03/2020 08:42AM  
Hi All,

Brian from Wenonah here. Resurrecting this thread a bit because the canoe history nerd in me can't help it.

Based on age and appearance, this boat is almost certainly an original Whitewater II. Introduced in 1977 and kept in production after the Whitewater X was launched in 1980. If my hunch is right the serial number should include JMW.

This thread discusses the chronology of Whitewater II, Whitewater X, Odyssey and Minnesota II.

https://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=forum.thread&threadId=591234&forumID=15&confID=1

Attached is a spec sheet for the Whitewater II and New Whitewater II which was later rebadged as the Odyssey.

Happy Paddling,

Brian https://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=forum.thread&threadId=591234&forumID=15&confID=1
 
BrianDay
member (43)member
 
03/19/2021 11:51AM  
Brian from Wenonah here,

One more update to this thread. Maybe with a final answer to the OP about his "built up" Jensen

We came across a catalog from 1977 today. It showed the specs for the Built up Jensen as well as the brand new Whitewater II.

The Built up Jensen was a deeper version of Jensen's USCA cruiser design. The Cruiser was 16" deep at the bow and the "built up" was 21. Deepening the boat
and reversing the gunwales made it dry enough for whitewater racing. This boat won the 1976 whitewater national championships.

The Whitewater II was Jensen's first purpose built downriver racer. It had a rounder bottom and more volume toward the ends than the built up Jensen. This is the canoe that evolved into the Odyssey and Minnesota II.

Here are a couple pages from the catalog showing the Built up Jensen, Whitewater II and Jensen Cruiser. Cool piece of canoe history.


!$/a





Brian
 
03/19/2021 01:08PM  
HansSolo: "
FuzzyBadger: "Hans Solo, would you happen to have catalog pages for any of these other models? I know that Clipper makes the WW II. But, they don't list all of the dimensions that Wenonah did for the WW X.

White Water II - Odyssey - Itasca

Fuzz"


Despite having numerous spec sheets, vintage catalogs, and articles from various paddling periodicals on file, my information about the Whitewater II is almost non-existent. Despite my research, detailed spec sheets or catalog pages are hard to come by. Sorry Fuzz!

I can tell you that the Whitewater II was the predecessor the Minnesota II and the Odyssey. Gene Jensen created the Odyssey and Minnesota II after the molds for the original Whitewater II went bad. It's also my understanding that the Minnesota II's hull was also tweaked a bit to be a bit more user friendly than the original Whitewater II. Although the Odyssey and the Minnesota II are very similar in design, (especially after Gene Jensen slimmed down the bow flair in the Odyssey in 1988), the Odyssey is slighter more narrow at the 4" waterline than the . I've included a few additional catalog pages for comparison below.

Looking at the pictures of your "built-up Jensen", it's apparent to me that it's a pre-1980 manufactured canoe. The decals and the foot-brace assembly tell me it was probably produced in the mid to late 1970's.

As far as the dimensions; measurements of the bow, center, and stern depth would be a better indicator as to how similar it is to either the Whitewater X, Odyssey, or Minnesota II. It's clearly not an Itasca, because the Itasca is 19' long, has a rather radical stern gunnel "tuck", and wasn't available until 1989. The measurements for the thwart distances, the gunnel placement, and therefore the gunnel widths, as well as the hull weight, can also vary somewhat from each production run to the next too.

Wenonah has been known to produce some models with a very short catalog life, so it might also be some short lived, obscure model they only produced for a year or two. For example, does anyone remember the Moccasin or the Whisper solo canoes? I know Butthead would know about the Moccasin because he owned one! :-)

Hans Solo

"



In case you're looking for buttheads old Moccasin.....I refinished it and has been my go to solo for 7 years. Great boat
 
BrianDay
member (43)member
 
03/19/2021 01:21PM  
"For example, does anyone remember the Moccasin or the Whisper solo canoes? I know Butthead would know about the Moccasin because he owned one! :-) "

The Whisper is a cool older design. Smaller version of the Advantage for lighter paddlers. I see one posted up from time to time on the Wenonah Owners Facebook page.

No longer have the mold for this one or the Moccasin, but we do still make the Advantage.

Whisper

Brian
 
03/19/2021 03:22PM  
And lets not forget about the Solitude (looked nicer than it paddled....)
 
03/19/2021 09:17PM  
Built up higher than a j200 perhaps
 
Banksiana
distinguished member(2310)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/20/2021 08:50AM  
cowdoc: "And lets not forget about the Solitude (looked nicer than it paddled....)
"

I had one to use for a couple of weeks- dubbed it the "Soli-tub" (the other solo was an Advantage).
 
03/20/2021 11:07AM  
Banksiana: "cowdoc: "And lets not forget about the Solitude (looked nicer than it paddled....)
"

I had one to use for a couple of weeks- dubbed it the "Soli-tub" (the other solo was an Advantage)."


Very apropos. Very stable.....I tried to tip it.....couldn't. That pot bellied mid section was like a set of foam outriggers. Empty, they didn't hit much water and you could move a little. Any load and you wetted up a lot of hull. I think I could swim faster while towing the canoe. The guy that bought it from me had paddled one and loved it and was ecstatic that he found one to buy. I was happy it found a new home.
 
Banksiana
distinguished member(2310)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/20/2021 11:58AM  
Very stable. Not a lot of free board to catch the wind. Good for fishing. Easy to load and unload. It seemed to get going ok, just couldn't seem to increase beyond its "native" hull speed.
 
FuzzyBadger
member (12)member
 
03/22/2021 05:24PM  
Brian you mentioned that the letters JMW might be in the serial number. I just arrived home from a trip and checked out the serial number. It is MFP BJ 0220179.
Sorry to spoil your hunch. Perhaps it will lead you in another direction. Looking forward to hearing what it might be.
Fuzz
 
BrianDay
member (43)member
 
03/23/2021 07:43AM  
FuzzyBadger: "Brian you mentioned that the letters JMW might be in the serial number. I just arrived home from a trip and checked out the serial number. It is MFP BJ 0220179.
Sorry to spoil your hunch. Perhaps it will lead you in another direction. Looking forward to hearing what it might be.
Fuzz"


That sounds right. My first guess about the Whitewater II was wrong. I didn't realize that "Built Up Jensen" was actually a model name from the mid-70's. We didn't have sales material going back that far here in the office. The other day a catalog showed up from 1977 that featured that model.

Now that I know where to look I see that the serial number designation for the Built Up Jensen was BJ. That's what you've got for sure.

Here's the catalog page with details on specs and description:



Brian
 
straighthairedcurly
distinguished member(872)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/23/2021 11:53AM  
Banksiana: "Note the photo of the steep portage on the Kopka river in the Wenonah catalogue. "

That brings back memories.
 
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