Chat Rooms (0 Chatting)  |  Search  |   Login/Join
* For the benefit of the community, commercial posting is not allowed.
Boundary Waters Quetico Forum
   Group Forum: BWCA.com Builders Group
      4 person plans?     

Author

Text

03/28/2019 01:08PM
My Merlin doesn't cut it anymore now that I have a family of four.

I'm looking for plans for something in the 20' range. Would be for my wife and I and 6 and 8 year old boys. Needs enough capacity for long trips. Will be used for river travel too, so some rocker would be nice. Does anyone know if a design like this exists?

The only one I have been able to find is the Chaa Creek Expedition by Bear Mountain. It looks more like a race canoe though and not sure about the capacity either.

Thanks!
 
      Print Top Bottom Previous Next
1JimD
distinguished member (432)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/28/2019 07:17PM
Just a thought, but try computer enlarging a good tandem design, and stretch it ! I've taken plans to a good print shop, and it was very reasonable to have this done !

Years ago, I stretched the spacings on an MCA's Osprey (17'), to 18.5'

It was fine when loaded, but a little uncomfortable empty.

Had I computer enlarged the design, I think it might have been better !

There are several people out there with enough computer savvy, to design one from Delft Ship.

The tallest canoe in the picture is the Osprey I stretched.

Food for thought ! Building and storing, transporting,not to mention finding enough people to help paddle, might be a challenge !
 
03/29/2019 06:24AM
Thanks Jim. I really like that idea but I know nothing about boat design.
If enlarging a design would you want to enlarge the width by the same percentage as the length?

For example a 16' prospector enlarged about 25% to 21'. Original width of 35" would then be 46" ???

Any suggested sources for learning more about canoe design?

BTW- That's an impressive fleet of canoes you have!
 
sedges
distinguished member(628)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/29/2019 08:23AM
https://www.bearmountainboats.com/collections/canoe-plans/products/chaa-creel-expedition

I think this is what you have in mind, by a great Canadian designer.

However, I don't think you need a boat that large unless you plan on having the kids in your canoe in to adulthood. You will probably want two canoes when they are both 12 or so. Although I saw a group of four college guys tripping in a Northwind 20 recently and they were having a blast getting into the old voyageur mode.

A big 18 footer would serve you well until you need to build another tandem. This is a great canoe by a another great Canadian designer.

http://www.greenval.com/quetico.html

 
03/29/2019 09:50AM
Thanks Sedges.

Yes I definitely want to split into two tandems as soon as the boys are old enough. So it would be nice to build something that would make a good tandem in the future.
That Quetico looks like a nice design. I think it would have plenty of weight capacity, I'm just worried about having enough length for four seats and all the gear. ( I really don't want to put the boys side by side on a seat.)

I've done three adults and gear for a week in a Souris River 18 with no troubles. I just can't remember if there would of been enough room to squeeze in a fourth seat.
 
sedges
distinguished member(628)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/29/2019 10:27AM
I really think you can do it. You may have to re-think your packs so that they are shallow enough to side under the extra seats. The childrens packs will fit under the seats for sure, as well as a day pack you can carry when portaging the canoe.

Make sure the seats are made so that it is comfortable to sit to one side near the gunnel. If it is a struggle to reach the water they won't want to paddle. A heavy pack on the opposite side counterbalances a child pretty well. A light cedar board works fine for a child.

You said side by side is out, but it really is the best solution. It also gets their paddles away from the adults paddles. Stroke timing is not usually a priority for kids.

The Chaa Creek would be fun, though! I'm sure you could sell to a younger family when the time comes to build two tandems.

You may ask around the outfitters about a used Northwind 20. Tuscarora had an old one(Northshore) in the back of their pile last summer. Its a pretty temporary boat to fill in until children are big enough to take the bow. Maybe an old beater would fill the bill.
 
03/29/2019 10:54AM
Thanks Sedges...you've given me some things to think about.

My reason for wanting to stay away from side by side seating is avoiding the, "Dad...he's on my side of the seat" or "he's touching me" type stuff. I guess as long as they are in reach of being whacked with my canoe paddle it might work.

I have thought about the used boat route, but there is nothing more satisfying than paddling a canoe that you built. I think I can actually get the boys interested in helping with construction too.
 
1JimD
distinguished member (432)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/30/2019 09:34PM
I'm totally For Building a large Family canoe ! It is Time consuming, not to mention a lot of expense !

I too would steer towards a good used canoe, or two, for now, as you start the Journey to building the Big one !

Jim
 
03/31/2019 06:58PM
Thanks Jim.

This won't be my first cedar stripper build, so I know what I'm getting into.
I'm not really interested in purchasing a production canoe. I haven't had much luck finding plans for larger canoes. Just trying to see what options there are for large canoe plans and learning how to possibly scale up smaller plans along with figuring out exactly how large of canoe I need.
 
1JimD
distinguished member (432)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/31/2019 09:50PM
Great ! Yes I missed the Merlin comment in your first post !
I'm excited for this build ! please share details if you can !
Jim
 
04/01/2019 06:03AM
I definitely share photos of the build.
Just have to figure out what I'm building first. ;)
 
Grizzlyman
distinguished member(693)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
04/06/2019 09:58PM
Hey beavers. I had the same problem last year. So I built my own model. You can find my build thread about a year back in this forum.

I will say that the size of boat I chose- 19 1\2 ft and big beam has been perfect. It's awesome for kids and gear!. I put the same week long trip load into it last year as I did with my old 17 freedom. I had the entire section behind the yoke and in front of the rear thwart wide open. - like 4 feet of canoe wide open. Thatd be perfect for your boys.

I did go the delftship route, but I wonder what would happen if you simply stretched a freedom 17-9. One thing for certain, the beam does not scale with the length. If you stretch a model, you could add some.additional beam, but not to scale.



 
Grizzlyman
distinguished member(693)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
04/06/2019 10:11PM
Here's the 17 freedom vs the new boat. It's quite a bit more roomy!
 
04/08/2019 08:04AM
Thanks Grizzlyman!

I found your build thread...going to spend some time reading through it. That's a very nice looking canoe, and the lines on the Freedom are awesome looking too.
 
Cedarboy
distinguished member(3412)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/30/2019 02:50PM
Over the years I have built 2 "family" canoes.
First was a Northwest Cruiser design. Originally 17 foot design that I increased the plans(by % on a big copier) so my stations were at 12 1/2 inches(if I remember right). That increased the entire boats measurements(of course) and overall length was about 18 1/2 feet. Width came out to almost 37 inches, HUGE capacity. Dropped a third seat for 2 kids etc...
Second boat was a John Winters Quetico design, plans from Green Valley canoe in Ontario. This time though I used the original plans but added an additional form. Because it is a fish form design(widest form just aft of center) I just added another "widest form". So original design was 18 1/2 feet, new (adding 1 foot)came out 19 1/2 feet. Same overall measurements just 1 foot added for the duplicate station aft of the middle.
Again HUGE capacity.
Having built both ways, I prefer the "add a form" method.
I like it so well I did the same to a John Winters Osprey solo. Duplicated(added a form)using the widest from just aft of center. It too is a fish form design.
I call it my Osprey XL,
I really like the John Winters designs. Still in the middle of building my daughter a Winisk.
CB

 
1JimD
distinguished member (432)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/31/2019 08:44AM
Beavers
Adding an extra form is a good way to stretch a design, add capacity, as well as maintain or improve speed !

Beings you are adding an extra body or two, stability would be more of a concern in my book.

I'd go with computer enlarging the forms, and stretching the spacings.

Talking to a real designer is a very good idea !

Northwest Canoe would be a great start, with their experience in big canoes !
https://northwestcanoe.com/

Jim
 
Cedarboy
distinguished member(3412)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/31/2019 11:27AM
1JimD: " Beavers
Adding an extra form is a good way to stretch a design, add capacity, as well as maintain or improve speed !


Beings you are adding an extra body or two, stability would be more of a concern in my book.


I'd go with computer enlarging the forms, and stretching the spacings.


Talking to a real designer is a very good idea !


Northwest Canoe would be a great start, with their experience in big canoes !
https://northwestcanoe.com/


Jim"


Northwest Canoe is under new ownership and is now located by Clearwater MN. Not sure if they still build. worth a call.
CB
 
07/31/2019 01:01PM
Thanks for the additional info guys. I got busy with other things this summer, so this is probably going to turn into my winter project.
 
02/05/2020 11:18PM
So I didn't end up building a canoe this winter. I've been busy making a bunch of other gear. I've temporarily traded my table saw for a sewing machine. ;)
I ordered a MN 4 from Piragis. It's not going to be nearly as cool as paddling my family around in a canoe I built, but I only have so much time.

Just wanted to thank you all again for the suggestions and info.
 
      Print Top Bottom Previous Next