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analyzer
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09/23/2020 11:48AM
I grew up with a friend, Rick, who didn't have a dad around, and was always causing trouble. His mom had to work, and with no authority figure around, he had no discipline. He had no respect for anything. He was always looking for trouble. I was a straight A student, with a very strict father, so i kind of gravitated towards Rick. He seemed like he was always doing something on the edge. Shooting birds with BB guns, creating home made potato launchers, blowing stuff up with fire works, sneaking into someone's beer stash. I was always half cringing, and worried I was going to get in trouble, but it was fun. Rick was one of those people that would hack a tree down with a hatchet, just to watch it fall. He never thought of the long term affects, or the consequences of any of his actions. Every time someone posts something about trashing a site, I think about how disrespectful my friend Rick was. I'm going to talk about all the "Ricks" who had both the time, and money this summer, to trash the bwca.

With Covid, we're talking about a perfect storm. I'm going to make an assumption here that the bulk of the damage, and disrespectful actions are by teens and twenties (yeah I know the folly in that, but for the sake of argument, lets move on). Lets take someone who would normally be working at least part time, and lets take away their job, and schooling, and give them a near infinite amount of free time. Normally, the unemployed can't really afford to go anywhere, and if you don't own your own gear, the BWCA can be somewhat expensive. However, lets give them an extra $600 per week, so they have more money than they've ever had (yes, i know the $600 has been eliminated, but it was there for at least part of this summer). Now, lets eliminate any other obligations they might have, say baseball, softball, summer volleyball, weddings, even funerals. Lets also eliminate many of their alternate entertainment options like twins games, bar hopping, grad parties, etc. Now you have a bored person, with money, with no obligations to be anywhere. Flights are cheap, but who wants to go to a shutdown city like New York, or Miami, or even Vegas, when so much was/is affected by Covid? So guess where a lot of that traffic goes (More than normal years anyway)?

The BWCA.

Lets also think about how their unemployment and lack of other obligations, might also affect the length of their trip. Where normally a person might need to be back by Tuesday, for their Tuesday night softball game, or by Saturday, for their friends wedding, or by Monday, because they have to go to work, now they have NONE of that. So trips that normally might have been 4 - 7 days, suddenly become 10-14 days. I've seen some posts of 27 day trips. People are unemployed, and have cash, with no other obligations, they can finally take a month long trip to the bwca. If I was unemployed, and getting an extra $600 a week, I definitely would have taken an extended trip up there. Lets exaggerate for a moment, and pretend that everyone who enters the bwca on day 1, day 2, day 3, day 4 etc, stay for the ENTIRE summer. How much overcrowding would that cause? Now that's a gross exaggeration, but it gives you an idea of what happens when so many people change their trips from the normal 4-7 day trips, to 10-14 day trips, or longer. That's one of the reasons we have problems with overcrowding.

Any time you increase traffic to the boundary waters, a certain percentage of those people, however small, will be a "Rick". Just there to raise hell. With so many people visiting, it really only takes 1% to trash the place. I umpired mens softball for 20 years. They call them beer leagues for a reason. Many of those players use softball for an excuse to drink,and some play 4 or 5 nights a week. I can't help but imagine, where some of those players go, when they don't have softball, don't have work, and have plenty of beer money in their pocket. Even the outfitting prices, that are normally a barrier to that type of individual, is no longer a barrier.

I realize this summer has been rough on the place we all love so much, but I think if we return to normal employment, and alternate summer entertainment next summer, a lot of this will go away. It was just a perfect storm.
 
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Blatz
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09/23/2020 12:39PM
I would argue that people who have limited camping experience, would leave the BW earlier than they anticipated once they realize that it's work and some discomfort
 
Mo63021
member (23)member
 
09/23/2020 01:16PM
Blatz: "I would argue that people who have limited camping experience, would leave the BW earlier than they anticipated once they realize that it's work and some discomfort"

+1

The B-Dub and the Q have always been my favorite places to go to, as they are with most of the folks on this site. I still chuckle at my friends and family when they say, "no really, where are you going for a VACATION, not that "other work place" you call heaven?" Ha..... But I guess I am in agreement with the OP as the stories I have read this summer after getting back from Lynx Lake in June are just crazy. Maybe I just hope they are right so the B-Dub and the Q can get back to "normal" once 2020 is over and done with.
 
GraniteCliffs
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09/23/2020 04:02PM
I am curious. Do you have any idea how Rick's life turned out?
 
missmolly
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09/23/2020 05:53PM
Well analyzed, Analyzer!
 
analyzer
distinguished member(1759)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/23/2020 11:39PM
GraniteCliffs: "I am curious. Do you have any idea how Rick's life turned out?"

While we were best friends from 3rd grade until a year or two after graduation, we have gradually gone our separate ways. I still stay in touch with him. He lives in Hudson Wi.

Your question actually brings up an interesting story.

Rick used to get into a lot of trouble. Nothing real serious, but he liked to pick on the cops, just to get them to chase him. He thought it was funny. He liked to run from them both on foot, and on his motorcycle. Once in a while, he found himself in front of a judge. He never committed any serious felonies, but his petty and gross misdemeanors were growing old on one particular judge.

Like many Judges in the 80's, this particular judge gave Rick a choice: 1 year in jail, OR join the army.

Rick joined the army.

I can still picture exactly where i was when he told me he was enlisting. I cried. I was losing my best friend. We were inseparable for a dozen years, and now he was going away for 4 years.

He came back a different man. The Army cleaned him up. He found the discipline, he hadn't had in his childhood, and it changed him. While he still drinks, he's very meticulous, and almost OCD about his house, his yard, his truck, his boat etc. He won't go to bed with a dirty dish in the sink. His yard doesn't have a blade of grass out of place.

He owns his own office furniture installation business, and is quite successful. He's on his third wife. He has one son by his first wife, who he knew for two weekends before he got married, and perhaps 2 hours, before he got her pregnant, and 2 daughters by his 2nd wife. None by his 3rd.

His mom used to date state rep, Willard Munger. Many of you probably knew him. He has a state trail named after him. Willard Munger owned a small motel in Duluth, and he used to let Rick and I stay there for a week each summer when we were in our late teens. Two 18 year olds, in a motel, by themselves for a week, is probably a recipe for disaster. Sometimes I'm thankful my Dad taught me to keep my D..k in my pants. Sometimes I regret being conservative. When you get old, sometimes memories are all you have.

Rick and I had a couple Duluth Denfeld girls that we would see when we went up there. One trip, they couldn't get away from their boyfriends, so they set us up with a couple other girls. One thing led to another, and we invited those girls back to our motel room. I don't think we were in there 5 minutes, and Rick and Leah were making noise in the next room. Me and the girl I was with, thought they were joking, but a letter Rick received 8 months later, that said Leah was pregnant, said otherwise.

Rick and I went up to visit her again, and a couple weekends later, he married her. When you're in the army, you get a little better perks when you're married. I think he got to live off base, get a little bit more money, and didn't have to report for morning revelry, or something like that. Forgive me if I have that wrong. I'm not a military person, and the memory is a bit fuzzy. I think they only stayed married a year. We found out through the grapevine, that the students at Denfeld, had known Leah wanted to get pregnant, so they all stayed clear. I guess it was a set up. LOL.

Actually my first impression of the army was kinda funny too. Rick had gotten a hernia, so I went down to Georgia to visit him. I can't remember what that fort was called. Benning maybe??? Either way, I went down there to surprise him. When I got to his barracks, he was out, and I stayed in the rec area, waiting for Rick to return. This was my first impression of the Army:

So I step inside the door, and there is this big rec area, there is a pool table, and a candy vending machine. One of those vending machines that holds candy bars, and potato chips etc, in the little metal spirals. When you pick something, the spiral turns and drops the candy to the bottom, where you reach through a door and grab it.

Except this vending machine wasn't standing upright. Instead it was face down on a mattress, and a handful of soldiers were lifting it, and turning it, and banging it on the mattress, trying to get all of the candy to fall out. I played pool with them for an hour. Turns out they were some pretty nice guys, but dumber than a box of rocks. I guess all the smart ones go to west point. I'm sure Rick fit right in with those guys.

Somehow he came out of the Army a completely changed man. I suppose technically he's an alcoholic, and spends most of his weekends on a yacht on the St. Croix. But he does alright, and has stayed out of trouble. I can thank that Judge for that. The BWCA is probably better off without him. The last time he came up there with me, a few decades ago, he and his brothers brought a full 16 gallon keg with them. By the time you drive 6 hours, the last hour of which, on a curvy gunflint trail, and paddle 4 or 5 hours on a wavy sag, that keg was ALL FOAM by the time we got to camp. I wouldn't recommend it. I don't drink a lick, so it wasn't my idea.

I think that was the trip he trapped a red squirrel, and tried to use it for bait. I shake my head thinking about it. I would never go with someone like that again. But he was definitely one of those type people we read about this summer. I remember he used to make gigantic fires. They were in the vicinity of the fire grate, but they would curl the leaves 30 feet up. I'm sorry that I didn't exercise any leadership, and curb his behavior. It's a bit embarrassing to admit I was standing there, when he was behaving like that. We followed many of the rules, but there were definitely some that he broke, or stretched.

I could probably write a book about all of the stuff that he got into as a kid. It's a wonder he's still alive.
 
analyzer
distinguished member(1759)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 12:26AM
I often avoid the last couple weeks of July, and the first couple of August, because that's the window, between when baseball/softball ends, and when high school/fall sports typically start up. so it's that 3 or 4 week window, that tends to be when dads pack up the entire family and head north, and i don't want to deal with all of that family traffic.

This summer, with the cancelation of many summer sports, those same dads can take their families any time. I think that led to alot more bwca traffic as well. And there was no high school football in Minnesota until this past week, so they didn't have to be back for that mid August either. I'm sure there were alot more families in the boundary waters this year, for that reason alone.
 
paddlinjoe
distinguished member (394)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 08:43AM
What a matter of fact and thoughtfully written comment on the summer. I will be thinking of all the connections you made for quite a while.

Given your writing style and insight, it would be fun to read any trip reports that you have.
 
treehorn
distinguished member(543)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 10:48AM
I think you make a lot of good points, and I think objectively there are simply a few more people in the BWCA this year than most years...more permits have been sold, and although I don't have the figures to back this up, I'd bet groups are on average slightly larger and stays are slightly longer.

I would just add one thing regarding the "perfect storm" we're discussing. I believe all the consternation about trashed campsites and poor camping etiquette is just a factor of that increase in usage, and everybody having ready access to a camera and social media.

I think this idea of 2020 being particularly bad became a "thing" almost as soon as the BWCA opened up this year. It could have taken one or two people to find some trash and a cut tree at a campsite, document it and blast it here there and everywhere, and that was all it took for everyone to start piling on and documenting every little thing they see, which is easier now than ever. Then it snowballed and people wanted to show their own experiences with "trashed" campsites. The newspaper even wrote articles about it.

In the meantime, I believe these things have been happening forever. But in the 80's or even 90's and into the 2000's, nobody would know about it except the group that came upon it. Now, we all hear about it all the time and we think it's exponentially worse. I just don't believe that's the case, at least not very significantly. Campers are campers and there have always been good ones and bad ones.

Increased usage leads to increased bad practices, as a matter of simple math/odds. And increased documentation leads to a perception of increased bad practices, as a matter of human psychology.
 
mjmkjun
distinguished member(2660)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 10:50AM
Glad you have a positive outlook on the matter. Still am wondering what happened to all the rangers.
When I entered Perent Lake recently, there was a family paddling out. One woman was attired in shorts, a sleeveless blouse, wide brim straw hat, sunglasses and a string of pearls. And lipstick. For a second there, I thought I was suddenly transported to a Palm Springs resort. Of course, she can wear whatever she wants but it was a sight odd from what is the norm.
You do write very, very well, analyzer.
 
analyzer
distinguished member(1759)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 11:10AM
paddlinjoe: "What a matter of fact and thoughtfully written comment on the summer. I will be thinking of all the connections you made for quite a while.


Given your writing style and insight, it would be fun to read any trip reports that you have."


Thank you. I wrote a long one once. I think it was a fairly entertaining read. Unfortunately I used some colorful language, and the moderators, rightfully, found it necessary to delete some of it. Somehow, the entire 2nd half, ended up deleted. It was many pages, and I didn't have the time and energy to re-write it, so I deleted the rest of it.

 
analyzer
distinguished member(1759)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 11:12AM
I do think the overcrowding problem is largely due to people staying longer. With people having wide open calendars, I would think a lot more people are staying 10-14 days, instead of the typical week or less.

I think with the closure of the Quetico, you automatically would have 20% more visitors, as Q visitors reroute to the BWCA. But even if you had the exact same number of people entering the bwca, if they stay on average 50% longer, that would mean 50% more demand for campsites.

We can set up a pretend scenario.

LIZ North. I think it allows 6 parties per day.

Lets say in example one, each party goes on a 7 day trip, on a clockwise loop thru loon, slim, south... finger...pocket...gebe, oyster, hustler...lynx... etc.

Day 1 parties leave on Day 8
Day 2 parties leave on Day 9
Day 3 parties leave on Day 10 etc.

Day 1 there are 6 parties on the loop.
Day 2 there are now 12 parties on the loop
Day 7 we're up to 42 parties on the loop.

it plateau's from there, as day 8, 6 parties enter, but 6 are leaving. So you never have more than 42 parties on the loop. It would be even less, if the average trip were 5 days.

In example 2. Lets exaggerate, and say every party stays 14 days.

Now by day 14, you have 84 parties on the same loop, where you now level off, with groups coming and going.

You can see, you can have the exact same number of entries each day, but twice as much demand for campsites, if everyone stays twice as long.

I don't know if they have any way to track average length of stay, but I would bet everything in my wallet, it has gone up significantly this year. Every time we go on a group trip, the length of stay is often dictated by someone who has to be back for work, or some event. If you eliminate those obligations, I would think there are people who have always wanted to do a longer trip, and go deeper into the bwca, and this was the year to do it. They don't have to even feel guilty about their kid missing a baseball game. They didn't have one.

I've read lots of comments about people saying they saw a lot more demand, a lot deeper in this year. People staying longer, drives people deeper to find open campsites, and solitude, if that's even possible this year.

I suppose outfitters could chime in as to whether they think people are staying longer this year. But then they are renting gear, so cost might limit peoples length of stay. Those that own their own gear, are paying nothing to stay an extra week, other than more food.
 
treehorn
distinguished member(543)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 11:19AM
analyzer: "paddlinjoe: "What a matter of fact and thoughtfully written comment on the summer. I will be thinking of all the connections you made for quite a while.

Given your writing style and insight, it would be fun to read any trip reports that you have."

Thank you. I wrote a long one once. I think it was a fairly entertaining read. Unfortunately I used some colorful language, and the moderators, rightfully, found it necessary to delete some of it. Somehow, the entire 2nd half, ended up deleted. It was many pages, and I didn't have the time and energy to re-write it, so I deleted the rest of it."

Dang, I didn't even know they moderated the trip reports.
 
inspector13
distinguished member(4105)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/24/2020 11:37AM

Garrett. I think your trip report got truncated with some kind of website server space maintenance. Apparently, it would have been OK if you had broken it up into parts or days. I remember a couple other long trip reports abruptly ending at that time also. It’s too bad. Yours was a good one.

 
pilot
distinguished member(1093)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 12:27PM
I almost hate to admit we were first timers to the BWCA this year too, however I have been a member here for about 10 years +/- and have been tripping other parks closer to us for all the reasons you stated. Absolutely loved it there and can't waith to go back, provided there are permits available(!)

 
bobbernumber3
distinguished member(1533)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 01:58PM
This thread wins "Longest Posts Award". I lost track of my short attention span.
 
Jackfish
Moderator
 
09/24/2020 03:29PM
Garrett, I've enjoyed this thread thoroughly. Some of it caused me to laugh out loud. I made sure not to be drinking coffee while reading it. LOL
 
analyzer
distinguished member(1759)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 04:21PM
Jackfish: "Garrett, I've enjoyed this thread thoroughly. Some of it caused me to laugh out loud. I made sure not to be drinking coffee while reading it. LOL"

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

: )~

(There's probably a "don't be a Richard" joke in there someplace).
 
analyzer
distinguished member(1759)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 04:26PM
bobbernumber3: "This thread wins "Longest Posts Award". I lost track of my short attention span."

Sorry, I could learn to be more concise.
 
analyzer
distinguished member(1759)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 04:38PM
treehorn: "I think you make a lot of good points, and I think objectively there are simply a few more people in the BWCA this year than most years...more permits have been sold, and although I don't have the figures to back this up, I'd bet groups are on average slightly larger and stays are slightly longer.


I would just add one thing regarding the "perfect storm" we're discussing. I believe all the consternation about trashed campsites and poor camping etiquette is just a factor of that increase in usage, and everybody having ready access to a camera and social media.


I think this idea of 2020 being particularly bad became a "thing" almost as soon as the BWCA opened up this year. It could have taken one or two people to find some trash and a cut tree at a campsite, document it and blast it here there and everywhere, and that was all it took for everyone to start piling on and documenting every little thing they see, which is easier now than ever. Then it snowballed and people wanted to show their own experiences with "trashed" campsites. The newspaper even wrote articles about it.


In the meantime, I believe these things have been happening forever. But in the 80's or even 90's and into the 2000's, nobody would know about it except the group that came upon it. Now, we all hear about it all the time and we think it's exponentially worse. I just don't believe that's the case, at least not very significantly. Campers are campers and there have always been good ones and bad ones.


Increased usage leads to increased bad practices, as a matter of simple math/odds. And increased documentation leads to a perception of increased bad practices, as a matter of human psychology."


Interesting points. You're probably right.
 
analyzer
distinguished member(1759)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 04:43PM
inspector13: "
Garrett. I think your trip report got truncated with some kind of website server space maintenance. Apparently, it would have been OK if you had broken it up into parts or days. I remember a couple other long trip reports abruptly ending at that time also. It’s too bad. Yours was a good one.


"


hmmm, I was not aware that. That makes sense. Thank you for that clarification.
 
bwcadan
distinguished member(1515)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 06:08PM
Do not worry about concise. Most all of us have plenty or time to read the posts by all concerned.
 
09/24/2020 07:54PM
So I'm curious. Was your friend the one I turned into the forest service gals that visited us on Wednesday morning on Brule after I heard constant hatchet chopping through the night and into the morning and watched a plume of smoke come out from the bay that could only have been from green wood?
 
schweady
distinguished member(6996)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/24/2020 08:10PM
okinaw55: "So I'm curious. Was your friend the one I turned into the forest service gals that visited us on Wednesday morning on Brule after I heard constant hatchet chopping through the night and into the morning and watched a plume of smoke come out from the bay that could only have been from green wood?"
Or, maybe he was on Clear Lake just a few days before we got there last week. Might have decided to have a tree felling contest with a buddy, targeting these two jack pine on the shoreline in our camp. Too bad one of them fell into the lake... nobody even made any attempt at harvesting any firewood from that one. And the other one was left lying across the kitchen area on the site... I'm sure they had no idea as to its significant stature before it came down.

I will pick up garbage left by others. I will give guidance to the hopelessly lost. I simply cannot forgive those who cut live trees, especially those growing along the shore.

(I spent an afternoon cutting up both and moving them back from the main site area.)

Count the growth rings on these slow-growing beauties; the trunks were only 8-10 inches in diameter.



 
09/24/2020 09:09PM
schweady: "okinaw55: "So I'm curious. Was your friend the one I turned into the forest service gals that visited us on Wednesday morning on Brule after I heard constant hatchet chopping through the night and into the morning and watched a plume of smoke come out from the bay that could only have been from green wood?"
Or, maybe he was on Clear Lake just a few days before we got there last week. Might have decided to have a tree felling contest with a buddy, targeting these two jack pine on the shoreline in our camp. Too bad one of them fell into the lake... nobody even made any attempt at harvesting any firewood from that one. And the other one was left lying across the kitchen area on the site... I'm sure they had no idea as to its significant stature before it came down.


I will pick up garbage left by others. I will give guidance to the hopelessly lost. I simply cannot forgive those who cut live trees, especially those growing along the shore.


(I spent an afternoon cutting up both and moving them back from the main site area.)


Count the growth rings on these slow-growing beauties; the trunks were only 8-10 inches in diameter.




"


Yep. Nothing pisses me off more. Leave two cases of empty beer cans (not allowed of course) and I will pick them up and take them out. I can't repair a tree or the blight it leaves on the site.
 
Portage99
distinguished member (461)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 09:34PM
So....I feel a little funny about all the personal details of your friend (job, home town). Maybe you should delete the details that could be identifiable? Unless he wouldn't care.

I am a nurse and HIPAA-engrained. : )
 
analyzer
distinguished member(1759)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 09:59PM
Portage99: "So....I feel a little funny about all the personal details of your friend (job, home town). Maybe you should delete the details that could be identifiable? Unless he wouldn't care.

I am a nurse and HIPAA-engrained. : ) "

He wouldn't care. He owns his past.

Shawshank Parole Scene
 
Portage99
distinguished member (461)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/24/2020 10:10PM
analyzer: "Portage99: "So....I feel a little funny about all the personal details of your friend (job, home town). Maybe you should delete the details that could be identifiable? Unless he wouldn't care.

I am a nurse and HIPAA-engrained. : ) "



He wouldn't care. He owns his past.


Shaw Shank Parole Scene "


Your friend is Morgan Freeman?! ha ha Just kidding.

That's great, he doesn't care. Just checking.

I own my past, too. I had a lot of fun! Way too much fun. But, with lots of fun, comes lots of trouble sometimes.. : )
 
RunningFox
senior member (68)senior membersenior member
 
09/24/2020 11:31PM
As the saying goes, hell is other people. To me, your buddy Rick and those like him, are other people.

The perfect storm is now at 330 million and growing. It’s so bad that I’ve witnessed others praying for a pandemic . . . They have of course retracted their petition now that one has struck.

When the levee breaks, praying won’t do you no good.
 
LindenTree
distinguished member(2589)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/25/2020 09:35AM
schweady:

Count the growth rings on these slow-growing beauties; the trunks were only 8-10 inches in diameter.

"


Really, really tough due to the rough cut.
I counted 105 Years old give or take 20 years.
 
analyzer
distinguished member(1759)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
09/25/2020 12:52PM
RunningFox: "As the saying goes, hell is other people. To me, your buddy Rick and those like him, are other people.


The perfect storm is now at 330 million and growing. It’s so bad that I’ve witnessed others praying for a pandemic . . . They have of course retracted their petition now that one has struck.


When the levee breaks, praying won’t do you no good."


I guess i'm not up to speed, what is the 330 million? What petition?
 
Chieflonewatie
member (31)member
 
09/25/2020 01:19PM
330 million is the number of people in the US. There prayer is there petition.
 
schweady
distinguished member(6996)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
09/25/2020 05:33PM
LindenTree: "schweady:"
"



Really, really tough due to the rough cut.
I counted 105 Years old give or take 20 years."

Yeah, I went with 90 years for the stories I've been telling. These trees, which an average person in an average location would probably guess at 20-30 years, take forever to grow up there and just a few minutes to snuff out. To think that these old jacks may have started from a seed when a cone opened during a fire sometime around the Great Depression. Or the Spanish Flu Pandemic...
 
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