BWCA New canoe Savage River vs Souris River Boundary Waters Gear Forum
Chat Rooms (0 Chatting)  |  Search  |   Login/Join
* For the benefit of the community, commercial posting is not allowed.
Boundary Waters Quetico Forum
   Gear Forum
      New canoe Savage River vs Souris River     
 Forum Sponsor

Author

Text

Bamthor
senior member (56)senior membersenior member
  
11/27/2020 09:42AM  
Hi all,

I just sold my MN2 and am in the market for a larger stable tandem. I want something for big water and heavy gear that can still be fished from empty and be relatively stable. My typical load is 700to 800 lbs as my buddy and I run 265 each and we like carrying real food like steaks and pork chops so the food pack averages about 80 lbs. With that being said I want something with room in the bow to fish from but lighter than the Royalex Wenonah Champlain we usually take. This is most likely my last tandem purchase as I’m 50 so I want something light but tough as hell. The boat will be stored indoors.

I’ve read everything I can on the Souris River and have paddled a Kevlar Q18 multiple times but I’ve never paddled a Savage River. I feel like the Deep Creek would be overloaded with us or I’d buy that so I’m leaning towards the Savage River Voyager in the Textreme with the dual Kevlar layup, foot brace, and carbon thwarts or the Q17 in the carbon layup with a foot brace. The two boats are basically identical in weight. Any feedback on either boat would be greatly appreciated. If anybody has a boat with the Textreme layup how has it held up? Any gripes about it?

Thanks for your time.
 
      Print Top Bottom Previous Next
IronRangeMike
senior member (80)senior membersenior member
  
11/27/2020 11:59AM  
WIlliams and Hall has a few Savage Rivers in their rental fleet. Give them a call and I'm sure they'll give you their $0.02
 
11/27/2020 12:26PM  
What about a Champlain in Kevlar or carbon? It is a big, stable seaworthy hull with decent glide for its mass.

Savage River is among the best in reducing weight. Really good lay ups. I've only paddled the Deep Creek and the Blackwater so I can't address your specific model. Souris River's designs suffer from a lack of bow to stern stiffness- this might be a concern considering the mass of the paddlers and gear. The carbon fiber is more resistant to abrasion but more prone to fracture (like from sharp blows- i.e dropped on a rock) than kevlar. The Tex-treme is pretty to look at.
 
Bamthor
senior member (56)senior membersenior member
  
11/27/2020 01:30PM  
Thanks for the feedback. I’ve considered the Champlain in Kevlar that’s third on the list creeping towards second. To be honest I wish Wenonah used colored Kevlar like SR does I’m not a huge fan of the raw banana look after all these years. Functional but not pretty like a Chevy truck.

I’ve read the reviews on the Williams and Hall boats they are all positive. I’ve also read Charlie Wilson's reviews on Textreme in general and Dan Cooke's reviews on his Deep Creek. I’ve just never seen any hands-on owner reviews on a Textreme boat in real world use. I was hoping somebody tells me they can run light rapids and beaver dams with it and it holds up. I know the Q17 can do that no problem.
 
11/27/2020 04:18PM  
In this thread and some other recent threads people keep talking about the Souris River Q18. Maybe they made a Q18 in the past, but there is no Q18 in their lineup now. There is a Q18.5 and a Wilderness 18. They are quite different boats. The Wilderness 18 would compete with a Wenonah MN II (maybe not quite as fast but a little more sea worthy). The Q18.5 would compete with the Champlain. Was there a Q18 at some time?
 
andym
distinguished member(5340)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
11/27/2020 04:47PM  
To the best of my knowledge there has never been a SR Q18. People just drop the .5. And yes, the SR Wilderness 18 is a very different hull and so it is important to keep them straight. We’ve done a 3 person trip with a Q18.5 which would put our paddler weight around yours but maybe less gear. It did fine even on some tough, windy, wavy days.
 
Bamthor
senior member (56)senior membersenior member
  
11/27/2020 08:23PM  
Sorry I just left off the .5 for simplicity. I’ve never paddled the Wilderness but the 18.5 took some big rollers on Vermillion last fall no problem.
 
IronRangeMike
senior member (80)senior membersenior member
  
11/29/2020 10:17AM  
I got a B17 in IXP this spring and beat the hell out of it this summer, it barely took anything more than a deep scratch. I absolutely love that boat and layup, it takes a licking and keeps on ticking.

Northstar's IXP is a great layup, but if you're thinking Savage or Souris River, you've probably got your heart set on an UL epoxy boat. I'm probably not going to sell you on the advantages of a B19 in IXP as its a little hefty at 76 lbs.... It'll be extremely seaworthy and bombproof though, mine sure is.

They offer it in their blacklite and starlite layups as well at 55 & 49 lbs respectively. Might be worth considering...
 
Bamthor
senior member (56)senior membersenior member
  
12/02/2020 02:17PM  
Thanks for the input everybody. I ordered a Savage River Voyageur in Textreme and the dual kevlar layup. John seems great to work with and is mounting the rails for the ram mounts for my rod holders at the factory. I'll post up a full review next fall after I get a chance to put some miles on it.

 
12/03/2020 12:27PM  
That will be a gorgeous canoe! Definitely the next level canoe!
 
Jackfish
Moderator
  
12/03/2020 01:29PM  
Hey Bam... what are the specs on your canoe? I looked at their website and I saw 30-something pounds, and in another area, it said 40-something pounds. I'm sure it had to do with layup, etc.

Looks like a dandy canoe at 18'6" long. Pretty pricey, too.
 
12/03/2020 03:47PM  
I find the Savage River canoes very interesting. The first things I noticed is that they are very, very light and also very, very expensive. The company website doesn’t give as much information on construction as I’d like to see. What type of resin do they use? How do the various layups compare in terms of durability? What is TeXtreme? How durable are the various layups compared to say Souris River’s or Wenonah’s layups? Can anyone who has owned one of these canoes answer the durability questions? What do outfitters say about durability? If these canoes are as tough as other ultra lights but substantially lighter that could justify the price.
 
Bamthor
senior member (56)senior membersenior member
  
12/03/2020 04:58PM  
Hi all
First off, light weight wasn’t my primary goal, durability was, so I blame Banksiana’s comment for tipping the scale this direction.

Second, fortunately I’m in a position where my buddies all use 80k fishing boats so my wife didn’t go nuts when I told her I was dropping big bucks on a canoe since one of them just spent 6K on a trolling motor and talons. To me I’m going to run this baby hard for twenty years so the price is more palatable.

As far as the specs go, I upgraded to the carbon yoke, thwarts, float tanks, and foot braces with the built in paddle holders for the ZRE power surge paddles, and the Textreme inner and outer layers, but still opted for the dual layer of Kevlar so basically four layers. The Textreme inner was just aesthetic as I think it looks better than yellow. It was a $200 upgrade, but saves about a pound. This is meant to be a rugged go-anywhere boat for fishing some of the big lakes and maintaining stability. He is also mounting some of my Ram track for the rod holders. I’m very aware it won’t be a Ferrari more like a souped up F350.

We are doing the Crane Lake to Fowl trip this fall and I like the thought of a big boat that is still light. In talking to John, he said it should come in at 41 lbs because of the two layers of Textreme and carbon upgrades. If I would have opted for one layer of Kevlar instead of two, it would have dropped 4 to 5 lbs, but I wasn’t really looking for that. I wanted the piece of mind to run a few rapids and not stress about it. John said it would handle whitewater and rocks no problem with a moose in the middle. I’m not quite as big as a moose, but what the heck.

I also really respect Dan Cooke and Rob K and they both run Savage Rivers so I figured that speaks well of the company.

My options were slightly custom, but that’s the great thing about John, you’re dealing with a custom guy. I honestly think that all the builders - Souris River, Northstar, Swift, and Wenonah are great and each bring their own unique angle to the industry.

This is the link: Savage River Voyager
 
12/03/2020 07:15PM  
I am salivating after that last post. Congratulations looks like a fine canoe!

T
 
kona
distinguished member (273)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
12/03/2020 08:36PM  
Congrats on a dream canoe. I expect you will be quite satisfied. Please share a report once you've had some time with the boat. A friend has a savage river flatware racing OC1. The fit and finish is incredible.

The favorite bent shaft paddles of my lot are Savage River, a matched pair from an earlier era when he would do such a thing. These paddles are incredibly stiff, light, and a pleasure to use. Thinking you might be interested, I've attached a photo.

 
andym
distinguished member(5340)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
12/03/2020 09:52PM  
I'm salivating too. The ability to customize so much is wonderful.

And you are right about price. It is a lot compared to a used canoe but nothing compared to what some people spend on motor boats.
 
Bamthor
senior member (56)senior membersenior member
  
09/07/2021 02:12PM  
Hi all,
I wanted to post up a couple pics of the new boat and give my feedback on the buying process.
The Dillers were excellent to deal with and very honest with their opinions. John and Ben helped me get the boat right on schedule and to find the best shipping method. I was expecting to hear some excuses which seems to be the new normal but they delivered everything when they said they would and in perfect condition. The boat was protected in plastic and had no major scratches of any kind. It is lighter than I expected and feels like air on my shoulders.
I can honestly say I love the boat. It is rock solid, handles chop well, and is extremely roomy. This week will be the first trip to the BWCA so I'll report back if I have any issues but so far at least on the local lakes it has been a dream.

 
09/07/2021 03:50PM  
Beautiful canoe. I agree that the folks at Savage River are fantastic to work with. I took delivery of a "Blackwater X" in June. The X designation the result of John offering tweaks in the shape of the hull to better accommodate my dog and tripping style. Expensive yes, but the boat is everything I ever wanted in a solo.
 
Voyager
distinguished member (387)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/07/2021 04:17PM  
Wow! You pulled out all the stops on that baby. I think it will fit your unique needs perfectly. Unfortunately, posting a quick link to Savage River could be dangerous. I have a Mn.II and would really like to upgrade to something lighter. I'm certain my wife would say "no". Maybe I should tell her I want a motor boat, kind of loosen her up first. Enjoy your canoe. Hopefully the border will be open all the way to Fowl Lake for you. Our Kruger / Waddel Challenge border trip was cancelled this year because of closures.
 
fishcane
member (13)member
  
09/07/2021 04:27PM  
As an owner of many Savage River boats( JDpro, D3, Susquehanna, Otegan, Saranac4) I’ve gotten to know John very well over the years. You made a wise choice
 
09/07/2021 06:07PM  
Great looking boat.

My Savage River, dog Cerberus and I head north tomorrow...
 
09/08/2021 07:39AM  
Picking up boats all over the country I found the folks at Savage River to be one of the top favorite pickups. I remember having like twenty Grumman’s on the trailer, but people would be salivating over that SR.
Enjoy your new ride as you have a good one. You mentioned above not liking the color of the wenonah boats... I believe you can get them in gel coat. But a boat that size would be pretty crazy heavy. The savage river is a great boat. The scratches will show, but that just shows adventure!
 
cyclones30
distinguished member(4163)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
09/08/2021 01:12PM  
Very cool looking canoe. The bow and stern are more upswept than I was expecting.

And as for the border route...it should be fine now that the BWCA is mostly back open I believe
 
fishcane
member (13)member
  
09/08/2021 04:03PM  
A little mineral oil takes care of seeing those scratches,
 
09/09/2021 08:36PM  
Thanks for posting…energizing me to work on getting my next canoe. I know I told yiu this already but it looks incredible and I am very jealous…in a good way!

T
 
mgraber
distinguished member(1486)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
09/09/2021 10:17PM  
Looks like a Ferrari to me! Congrats on the new boat!
 
09/12/2021 09:08PM  
Banksy, just out after my first solo in my Blackwater - it handled everything pretty perfectly, even the almost-one-mile psedo-bushwhack into a PMA lake. Only negative is the obvious turning aspect.

It did take me longer than it should have to get the trim right, but it did even better when it was true...
 
09/12/2021 11:49PM  
sns: "Banksy, just out after my first solo in my Blackwater - it handled everything pretty perfectly, even the almost-one-mile psedo-bushwhack into a PMA lake. Only negative is the obvious turning aspect.


It did take me longer than it should have to get the trim right, but it did even better when it was true..."


You can lean to make corners, she'll keep you dry.

I head out with the dog tomorrow. If I can remember how to put a trip together.
 
Bamthor
senior member (56)senior membersenior member
  
06/21/2022 01:17PM  
Hi all just wanted to post an update on my thoughts on the Savage River after the first season.

Pros:
Handles big water excellent. We had the boat out last fall for a week on Basswood and had at least three days of paddling where we would have had issues in my past boat. The boat can take waves from the side with no problem and is ridiculously stable. It seems to ride the waves well loaded or unloaded and I think we could have stood in it and surfed from one end of Pipestone bay to the other.

Plenty of room for the bow paddlers feet and fishing gear. This isn't always an option in a lot of boats.

Crazy light and portages like a dream. Honestly, sometimes it is hard to believe I have a canoe this big on my back. I can easily single portage with my normal pack which is about 26lbs and I'm 50 years old with a herniated L4.

Craftmanship is literally a dream and everything seems like it was very well thought out. The finish including how the fabric was overlaid is excellent. For example they took the time to match up the squares from one sheet to the next so it is perfectly aligned in the canoe bottom. This is a small thing but when you are in the boat for hours on end hoping for the next walleye an OCD person like myself appreciates that.

The boat is extremely rigid. I know that some people like this and others prefer the SR approach. To me the rigidness feels like your not losing any of your paddling power. Both myself and my paddling partner really love this especially when the waves kick up. It conveys a sense of confidence in the boat that is hard to put into writing.

Cons:
She is not a ferrari. :) I'm cool with enjoying the scenery and I knew it wouldn't be the quickest boat going in. I'm more than willing to sacrifice the speed I had before for the amenities noted above. I'm just putting this out there for other people that may be considering their options. I'd say it paddles like a stiff Wenonah Champlain.

Scratches really show. This kind of goes without saying on a black boat but I thought I'd mention it.

The lack of gunwales can make the grip hard on portages in the rain. This is a little thing that you only really notice in the rain going uphill or on long portages but you can't easily grab the gunwales like you could with wood because they are molded into the canoe. I have adapted to this by always snapping the bow paddle into the paddle clip and then I basically hold the canoe with my hand on the shaft of the paddle as a balance. I don't really need two hands since it is so light but I thought I'd mention it.

As a side note this also serves as a pro when fishing because if you have big legs they don't dig into the side of your legs.

If anyone has any other questions I'd be glad to answer them. Have a great season !
 
06/21/2022 07:15PM  
Thanks for the update post. I love your canoe…so much I almost got a copy of it from Savage River. I am sure I would of been quite happy if I did copy you. Especially after your posts! I appreciate your comments along the way as well.

T
 
06/22/2022 04:35PM  
Great review. Thanks for the update and glad that you love your boat. Have to second that the folks at Savage River do an incredible job in both consultation and construction. As fast, light, seaworthy and stable that my Blackwater (well Blackwater X) is what I find most noteworthy is the stunning silence with which it parts the water; simply unbelievable.
 
      Print Top Bottom Previous Next