I tried to change a permit issuing station today for an upcoming trip. Used to be able to do this online, but that was not possible. So, I called rec.gov and was told I could not change the issuing station at all unless I cancel the reservation and rebook. The woman I spoke to claimed this was a US Forest Service decision. Not sure what the rationale behind this could be. This is not a huge deal in my case, just annoying.

Yeah, I thought I remembered seeing that when I reserved my permit. It definitely does seem like a weird change though. Why specifically decide that people should no longer be able to change their pick up location? Did a few people ruin it for everyone else by causing problems? I could imagine that someone assigning it to the wrong station then changing it while at the desk and expecting it immediately might cause a few headaches, but a "no changes on the day of" restriction should be enough there.

GR R R R, What a pain! I have 1 permit that will be virtual and another to pick up at an outfitter. I'm worried the F.S. might not get the last video, and then the permit to me in time. They mention shortly before your start date. I guess I'll have a better grasp of their procedure as people with Spring trips report how the process works.

They apparently changed that sometime after I changed my cooperator from a virtual to an in-person shortly after I got it on the first day. I was concerned about the scenario Voyager mentioned and could not get a clear answer from USFS on the process other than it wasn't going to happen until the day before your entry. There seemed to be too much potential for problems with that.

What if someone selects the complete wrong thing on accident lol. Yeah I don't see why you couldn't switch it up?

All the more reason for ......
If you get to where your permit.... once there...
Sit back and enjoy it.... aaaahhhhhhh.

Voyager North looked into this for me and got this reply from the US Forest Service:

” A coop to coop change will only be made for extraordinary circumstances that merit a change, not just convenience. This rule is being enforced this year and they are not changing these over unless it is an “extraordinary circumstance”.

I wonder if this is in somehow a response to the chaos that defined last year.

I use both Voyager North and Voyager Outfitters and I’m usually very careful about selecting the correct one and remembering which side I’m going to. I also avoid the third Voyager, The Outward Bound School.
Now I will be extra cautious and wear my reading glasses when choosing. A mistake could mean a lot of extra driving.

Thanks for looking into this Frenchy.

Frenchy19: "Voyager North looked into this for me and got this reply from the US Forest Service:


” A coop to coop change will only be made for extraordinary circumstances that merit a change, not just convenience. This rule is being enforced this year and they are not changing these over unless it is an “extraordinary circumstance”.


I wonder if this is in somehow a response to the chaos that defined last year."

Why do they even care? All this is done online and should be updated automatically. This response just reads like an grumpy old guy that is sick of dealing with indecisive people. Not very professional.

It looks like they are trying to raise money by getting people to cancel and rebook their trip and thus forfeiting their service charge. But the Forest Service doesn't keep the service fees, do they? I thought the company that manages the website gets that. Did they pressure the FS to implement this and make people think it was their idea? It bothers me when institutions find new ways to charge people to do the exact same thing they already do. Banks are a bad example of this.

This not being able make a change to permit pick-up location chaps me a little. When I make my reservation I am doing so just to get my EP on the books, then I go back closer to the trip and add/subtract paddlers and move my permit pick-up location after more trip planning.

I don't see any point to it and don't know why they changed that. I suggest you all complain to them about it. I already complained about the way they were doing the virtual.

New changes, details here

This update is clear as mud. When I log into Recreation.gov and look at my reservation, with Gunflint ranger station selected as the issuing station, it says "VIRTUAL ONLY - PERMIT EMAILED BY USFS UPON COMPLETION OF LNT REQUIREMENT." However, also on my reservation page, there is a "Facility Message" that is a truncated version of the same update posted above. In that update, it says that the Gunflint Ranger station is operating in person. I'm emailing the FS for clarification. I'll update this if I receive a reply.

Porkeater: "This update is clear as mud. When I log into Recreation.gov and look at my reservation, with Gunflint ranger station selected as the issuing station, it says "VIRTUAL ONLY - PERMIT EMAILED BY USFS UPON COMPLETION OF LNT REQUIREMENT." However, also on my reservation page, there is a "Facility Message" that is a truncated version of the same update posted above. In that update, it says that the Gunflint Ranger station is operating in person. I'm emailing the FS for clarification. I'll update this if I receive a reply. "

How the hell are you supposed to print your permit the day before if you're not at home? I know they say that you can show it virtually, but that means you better bring your phone AND make sure it doesn't die.

It says that you can choose virtual or in-person. Does anyone know if the rangers stations plan to be open and you can just show up and virtual is just an option if you prefer avoid going into the office?

brux: "

Porkeater: "This update is clear as mud. When I log into Recreation.gov and look at my reservation, with Gunflint ranger station selected as the issuing station, it says "VIRTUAL ONLY - PERMIT EMAILED BY USFS UPON COMPLETION OF LNT REQUIREMENT." However, also on my reservation page, there is a "Facility Message" that is a truncated version of the same update posted above. In that update, it says that the Gunflint Ranger station is operating in person. I'm emailing the FS for clarification. I'll update this if I receive a reply. "

How the hell are you supposed to print your permit the day before if you're not at home? I know they say that you can show it virtually, but that means you better bring your phone AND make sure it doesn't die.


It says that you can choose virtual or in-person. Does anyone know if the rangers stations plan to be open and you can just show up and virtual is just an option if you prefer avoid going into the office? "

I started a new thread on this topic New LNT Requirements

Porkeater, et.al., I corresponded with SNF in Jan about the virtual permit and printing, etc. At that time I was told it didn't need to be printed, that you could just carry your phone with it, but make sure you it had enough charge to show the permit if requested . . .

I had changed to Duluth Pack Store for in-person pickup as the situation was even less clear at that time and was only virtual. I logged into my reservation and there are no messages for me . . .

Originally you could only do the virtual the day before entry same as permit issuance. Permit issuance has always been restricted to the day of or day before. At least there's an extra 24 hours for that.

See other thread for link to original SNF news release, not reposting by Boreal org.

While you can call to change from a Ranger issuing station to a coop, expect to spend a good 30 minutes minimum on hold. Lovely system.

Indeed. The day before, we will be totally out of touch with internet/phone service. So, how am I supposed to print a permit?? Total confusion. What if the power goes out up there?...What's that going to look like?

Try adding a second group leader....that's super fun, and impossible to do. "Add an alternate group leader anytime"...Nope. It will not allow me to do that. At all. Anyone know why?

mforrest: "Indeed. The day before, we will be totally out of touch with internet/phone service. So, how am I supposed to print a permit?? Total confusion. What if the power goes out up there?...What's that going to look like? "

You don't have to print it, just have it available on your phone with enough charge to show it. And yes, I didn't consider that the best thing either. I would suggest just picking it up in person the day of or day before. That is once again the option, which wasn't exactly true in January either. That has always been the option, virtual is new. Last year was different, this year is different. I had those same questions way back in January and the options were more limited and/or unknown, so I went to in-person pick up.

mforrest: "Try adding a second group leader....that's super fun, and impossible to do. "Add an alternate group leader anytime"...Nope. It will not allow me to do that. At all. Anyone know why?"

No, I don't know for sure. I've never listed or tried to change one. It does say in the information at rec.gov that it has to be done at time of reservation and can't be changed. I can't say if this has always been the policy or is something new. There is contact info at this link . You'll get a more authoritative answer there although may take a day or two. It will probably be clearer than the answers I was getting in January. Good luck.

mforrest: "Try adding a second group leader....that's super fun, and impossible to do. "Add an alternate group leader anytime"...Nope. It will not allow me to do that. At all. Anyone know why?"

It keeps the unscrupulous from obtaining multiple permits without thought as to who might ultimately use them, then passing them out to those who didn't do their own due diligence in January. This is not new. It has been around since the concept of alternate leader was initiated.

mforrest: "Indeed. The day before, we will be totally out of touch with internet/phone service. So, how am I supposed to print a permit?? Total confusion. What if the power goes out up there?...What's that going to look like? "

Up until the pandemic, we were always required to pick up a permit the day before or day of entry. Printing a permit was not an option. This year, the ranger stations will be open so just plan to stop in and pick up your permit in person. If trying to do the virtual permit, you would need to be available the day before to do an online webinar in order to even receive a permit that could be shown on your phone. If connection is a concern, just go in person.

Problem is none of the ranger stations are open on weekends other than Gunflint and Kawishiwi so if you happen to not be going that way, or can't make their limited hours, you are SOL. People don't enter on weekends right? Sure glad they can have their weekend off...I work in retail and haven't had weekends off in 46 years.

This is complete BS, poor customer service and frankly unexplainable. They work for us don't they...the taxpayers?

Did they get together and figure out how they could create the most confusion and inconvenience for paddlers this year? Great job!

Im heading up Saturday for a Sunday entry, hope I just happen to be able to get my permit via email so I can save a screenshot on my phone. Going in regardless...this is unacceptable. There's got to be a better way.

Footnote...I get the importance of LNT which is probably behind all of this. Still think they could have made it more user friendly...lots of folks travel a long way to go to the BWCA...why is the permit only available the day before?

I would guess that the day of/before timing for permit pickup has origins in the importance of making contact with the FS or your outfitter close to the time of actual travel to ensure people are educated on burn bans, problem animals, and other timely issues. If you got your permit 2 weeks in advance there’s a lot that can change in that time.

I think it’s important to remember that online permitting and all this racket is a temporary solution to a problem that nobody planned for.

The one thing I am annoyed with is the sudden inability to change your pickup location. That was the wrong move to make at the wrong time and I cannot for the life of me understand their angle on that one. And it’d solve a lot of problems to fix that mistake.

I needed to switch a May 22 permit pick up from Duluth Pack store to Kawishiwi Ranger Station and have my alternate leader pick it up instead of me. A five minute call to the Kawishiwi Ranger Station took care of both this past Saturday morning.

It took me no more than 2 minutes to change my permit issuer from the ranger station to to my outfitter in Ely. It would have been even quicker if I hadn’t been semi-dumbfounded by how simple it was in the middle of the process.

Agreed, I was amazed at how quickly I was able to change my permit issuing location. The USFS rep I spoke to said it was easy to switch from a Ranger station to a "Cooperator" (outfitter, store, etc) but they were unable to move the other direction (cooperator to ranger station). Took a total of a couple minutes to get it done.

AdmAckbar13: "Agreed, I was amazed at how quickly I was able to change my permit issuing location. The USFS rep I spoke to said it was easy to switch from a Ranger station to a "Cooperator" (outfitter, store, etc) but they were unable to move the other direction (cooperator to ranger station). Took a total of a couple minutes to get it done."

They're also not allowing changing from one cooperator to another. Which is asinine.

Unable? Nope. Because I could do that in about 10 seconds on the website earlier this year.

Unwilling is the word you're looking for.

AdmAckbar13: "Agreed, I was amazed at how quickly I was able to change my permit issuing location. The USFS rep I spoke to said it was easy to switch from a Ranger station to a "Cooperator" (outfitter, store, etc) but they were unable to move the other direction (cooperator to ranger station). Took a total of a couple minutes to get it done."

And just above your post, CRL reports being able to change from a cooperator to the ranger station . . . ?

thegildedgopher: "

AdmAckbar13: "Agreed, I was amazed at how quickly I was able to change my permit issuing location. The USFS rep I spoke to said it was easy to switch from a Ranger station to a "Cooperator" (outfitter, store, etc) but they were unable to move the other direction (cooperator to ranger station). Took a total of a couple minutes to get it done."

They're also not allowing changing from one cooperator to another. Which is asinine.


Unable? Nope. Because I could do that in about 10 seconds on the website earlier this year.


Unwilling is the word you're looking for."

Yep, I changed mine online myself from one cooperator (virtual only) to another (in person) shortly after permits were available.

boonie: "

AdmAckbar13: "Agreed, I was amazed at how quickly I was able to change my permit issuing location. The USFS rep I spoke to said it was easy to switch from a Ranger station to a "Cooperator" (outfitter, store, etc) but they were unable to move the other direction (cooperator to ranger station). Took a total of a couple minutes to get it done."

And just above your post, CRL reports being able to change from a cooperator to the ranger station . . . ?"

This is just what the USFS employee told me when I called to change my permit issuing station. If you make a good case for yourself maybe they would make the change from cooperator to ranger station for you.

I wasn't doubting you, just shows how things change, and information can be contradictory. I may call to see if I can change it to the ranger station. It would be more convenient and I would get better and more up-to-date information there, but I can do either. The ranger stations were virtual only when I originally reserved the permit. And I didn't want the virtual (information on it was even less clear at the end of January).

boonie: "I wasn't doubting you, just shows how things change, and information can be contradictory. I may call to see if I can change it to the ranger station. It would be more convenient and I would get better and more up-to-date information there, but I can do either. The ranger stations were virtual only when I originally reserved the permit. And I didn't want the virtual (information on it was even less clear at the end of January). "

I completely agree, people get a different message every time they reach out to the USFS and the 'official' stance seems to be changing pretty rapidly.