I'm trying to understand better what is going on in Nova Crafts canoes that makes them consistently heavier (at least advertised weight) than others such as Northstar, Swift, Wenonah. Initially I thought one could point at the fact that Nova Craft still gel coats their boats, but they do have an aramid with no gel coat option as well as a carbon layup with no gel coat, and these are still significantly heavier than comparable canoes from others, so where is the weight coming from?

Nova Craft Prospector 16 (Al gunnels) -- "regular kevlar" 45 lb, carbon 48 lb
Northstar B16 (Al gunnels) -- 39 lb, 41 lb
Wenonah Prospector 16 (Al gunnels) -- 40 lb, n/a
Swift Prospector 16 (Al gunnels) -- 41 lb, 36 lb* (*Swift carbon layup only available with carbon gunnels)
Savage River Deep Creek (less comparable) -- 35 lb, 32 lb

Sure, 5 lb doesn't look like much, but it's 5 lb more than every other comparable competitor, and in a larger boat, the difference is greater.

5-10 lb isn't a ton, but they're so consistently heavier every single time you compare their canoes to others' similar models that there must be a reason to be able to point to, and I really want to understand what the reason is? Stronger construction? Cheaper/heavier materials? Less efficient design? I'm *guessing* it's burlier construction since Nova Craft seems just a little more interested in the deep wilderness and/or river trip angle rather than efficient flatwater recreation.

I can't really get into the techinal details of the material because I don't know it but what I can say is Nova Craft isn't really known for their lightweight canoes. They are more renowned for their Tuffstuff and Expedition Tuffstuff layups which can take a considerable amount of abuse compared to their weight which is lighter than pretty much all the competition. It is not uncommen for a Novacraft canoe to run class 3 rapids and come out just fine. So yes, if your looking for a lightweight Kevlar canoe for mostly flatware, look elsewhere but if your looking for a canoe to run rapids, bump rocks, and line and scrape up a river and still be light enough to portage, you can't go wrong with Novacraft.

dschult2: "I can't really get into the techinal details of the material because I don't know it but what I can say is Nova Craft isn't really known for their lightweight canoes. They are more renowned for their Tuffstuff and Expedition Tuffstuff layups which can take a considerable amount of abuse compared to their weight which is lighter than pretty much all the competition. It is not uncommen for a Novacraft canoe to run class 3 rapids and come out just fine. So yes, if your looking for a lightweight Kevlar canoe for mostly flatware, look elsewhere but if your looking for a canoe to run rapids, bump rocks, and line and scrape up a river and still be light enough to portage, you can't go wrong with Novacraft.
"

This pretty much sums it up. If I were looking at lightest weight I would look at Savage River or Swift, for toughness Novacraft, and for all around and\or affordability there are many choices.

For the sake of comparing apples to apples instead of mixing metaphorical fruits, I did look into whether or not Nova Craft remains heavier with TuffStuff (basalt/innegra) compared to another basalt/innegra layup like Northstar's IXP.

NC Pros. 16 TuffStuff -- 56-62 lb (regular TS and "expedition" TS)
Northstar B16 IXP -- 60 lb
Wenonah -- n/a (no comparable basalt innegra layup)
Swift Pros 16 -- 48 lb* (*"expedition kevlar" is still a kevlar layup and only just incorporates an addition of some basalt/innegra)
Savage River doesn't even attempt anything close to this.

In terms of the super indestructible, it really just comes down to NC and NS, and they're about even weight-wise. NC uses gel coat while NS does not, but I've no way of knowing if anything can be inferred from that, so it just is what it is.

mgraber: "

dschult2: "I can't really get into the techinal details of the material because I don't know it but what I can say is Nova Craft isn't really known for their lightweight canoes. They are more renowned for their Tuffstuff and Expedition Tuffstuff layups which can take a considerable amount of abuse compared to their weight which is lighter than pretty much all the competition. It is not uncommen for a Novacraft canoe to run class 3 rapids and come out just fine. So yes, if your looking for a lightweight Kevlar canoe for mostly flatware, look elsewhere but if your looking for a canoe to run rapids, bump rocks, and line and scrape up a river and still be light enough to portage, you can't go wrong with Novacraft.
"

This pretty much sums it up. If I were looking at lightest weight I would look at Savage River or Swift, for toughness Novacraft, and for all around and\or affordability there are many choices."

To be fair, Northstar also has light canoes, as well as canoes you can beat on with a bat (IXP layup) without putting a dent in the hull.

But for lightness - just using an average sized boat:
The Trillium (14,6ft) is 25#'s in the Starlight layup - add the E6 gunnels and it's 24#

The Keewaydin 14 (14ft) is 26#'s in the Carbon Fusion layup. Add the Carbon Thwarts, handles and web seat and it's about 24-25#'s. Without additional add-ons.

If you live on the east coast, there's Placid Boatworks - the Oseetah (14ft) Ultralight in Carbon is 20#'s.

If I was more experienced and felt 100% comfortable with my balance and stability, and I was absolutely certain the thwarts wouldn't break off the boat (seen in a YT video in Algonquin Park), I would have ordered the PlacidBW's Rapidfire (15ft) Ultralight in Carbon at 22#'s. That would be an total joy portaging. But that's another story. :)

As it is - every boat maker has a different focus and point of difference. That's the beauty - we the customers/users have a LOT of choices to find what best works for us.

Scoobs: "As it is - every boat maker has a different focus and point of difference. That's the beauty - we the customers/users have a LOT of choices to find what best works for us. "

I think what I've been trying to get at is: is there a good reason Nova Craft's aramid and carbon boats are consistently heavier, such as demonstrably stronger design, or are they just plain heavier, such as sloppy excess material that serves little to no practical purpose? Just because a boat is heavier doesn't mean it is stronger, and it has always nagged at me: are Nova Crafts actually stronger in those layups than comparable boats in the same kind of layups, or are they just heavier? A boat that is actually stronger is a valid option. A boat that is just heavier is not a valid option (imo).

mschi772: "

Scoobs: "As it is - every boat maker has a different focus and point of difference. That's the beauty - we the customers/users have a LOT of choices to find what best works for us. "

I think what I've been trying to get at is: is there a good reason Nova Craft's aramid and carbon boats are consistently heavier, such as demonstrably stronger design, or are they just plain heavier, such as sloppy excess material that serves little to no practical purpose? Just because a boat is heavier doesn't mean it is stronger, and it has always nagged at me: are Nova Crafts actually stronger in those layups than comparable boats in the same kind of layups, or are they just heavier? A boat that is actually stronger is a valid option. A boat that is just heavier is not a valid option (imo)."

It can simply come down to a cost vs. manufacturing process, and what segment of the market they're targeting. Are they going after the "high-budget" market, or the "lower-budget" market.

Rutabaga paddle sports pricing for various 16ft tandems:
The NC Prospector 16 starts at $1,600 USD and goes up to $2,900 USD.

Northstar B16 starts at $3,000 and goes up to $3,500

Wenonah Adirondack starts at $3,100 and goes up to $3,900

Swift Prospector 16 starts at $3,700 and goes up to $4,100. I can go to Swift's website and custom option the Swift Prospector 16 to well over $8,000.

Swift also offers a "Northern" branded canoe, which is less expensive, but heavier. The Northern Prospector 16 begins at $3,000 CDN ($2,400 USD), at 52 pounds. Add on about $400 for the US delivery tax per canoe, so it would likely begin at $2,800 USD - provided they would even offer the Northern Canoe brand in the US.

Scoobs: "

mschi772: "

Scoobs: "As it is - every boat maker has a different focus and point of difference. That's the beauty - we the customers/users have a LOT of choices to find what best works for us. "

I think what I've been trying to get at is: is there a good reason Nova Craft's aramid and carbon boats are consistently heavier, such as demonstrably stronger design, or are they just plain heavier, such as sloppy excess material that serves little to no practical purpose? Just because a boat is heavier doesn't mean it is stronger, and it has always nagged at me: are Nova Crafts actually stronger in those layups than comparable boats in the same kind of layups, or are they just heavier? A boat that is actually stronger is a valid option. A boat that is just heavier is not a valid option (imo)."

It can simply come down to a cost vs. manufacturing process, and what segment of the market they're targeting. Are they going after the "high-budget" market, or the "lower-budget" market.


Rutabaga paddle sports pricing for various 16ft tandems:
The NC Prospector 16 starts at $1,600 USD and goes up to $2,900 USD.


Northstar B16 starts at $3,000 and goes up to $3,500


Wenonah Adirondack starts at $3,100 and goes up to $3,900


Swift Prospector 16 starts at $3,700 and goes up to $4,100. I can go to Swift's website and custom option the Swift Prospector 16 to well over $8,000.


Swift also offers a "Northern" branded canoe, which is less expensive, but heavier. The Northern Prospector 16 begins at $3,000 CDN ($2,400 USD), at 52 pounds. Add on about $400 for the US delivery tax per canoe, so it would likely begin at $2,800 USD - provided they would even offer the Northern Canoe brand in the US.
"

Ignoring NC's cheap SP3 boats and the Northern brand, the apple-to-apple pricing isn't that much different from one brand to another. In any case, price/market isn't really the direct answer. OK, one boat is a little heavier than another to appeal to a cheaper market, but then what is physically different about it to make it cheaper?

Sure, you can jack-up Swift's boats to insane prices if you load them up with every option, but then you're no longer comparing an apple to an apple. A fully tricked-out Textreme Swift would have to be compared to a fully-optioned Textreme Savage River.

The deeper, more scientific/objective dissections and comparisons of modern canoes might just be something no one has ever done (it would be very expensive to do for the average Joe obviously), so the answers to my musings may not exist.

I've always longed for deeper objective direct comparisons which are extremely rare, but the specific spark for me at the moment has been bouncing a NS Blacklite B16/17 or NC blue steel Pros 16/17 around in my head. There are more differences than just weight, and I'd love to hear all of their differences compared in depth if only because the minutia of canoe design and why a designer makes the specific choices they do is fascinating to me, but I've gotten especially curious about why NC is so consistently heavier even without gel coat with such otherwise very similar canoes. It seemed like the most likely thing for someone to know the answer to.

Nova doesn't make any skin-coat boats. Even the kevlar colored options have a clearcoat. Clear gel-coat isn't as heavy as pigmented, but still is 3ish pounds. Also, there Alum gunnels are much larger then Northstar/wenonah/souris, presumably because they hang their seats from them instead of riveting through the sides.

Bearskin Lodge: "Nova doesn't make any skin-coat boats. Even the kevlar colored options have a clearcoat. Clear gel-coat isn't as heavy as pigmented, but still is 3ish pounds. Also, there Alum gunnels are much larger then Northstar/wenonah/souris, presumably because they hang their seats from them instead of riveting through the sides."

FWIW, NS hangs seats these days, but I did not know that NC's uncolored boats were still gel coated. I thought they were finished the same way as others. Ugh, I don't get that at all--gel coat is so frustrating. At least with color, I can understand how some might like it, but if it is just clear, why even have it at all?
Blech, that settles things for my current decision-making at least. Screw gel coat.

mschi772: "

Bearskin Lodge: "Nova doesn't make any skin-coat boats. Even the kevlar colored options have a clearcoat. Clear gel-coat isn't as heavy as pigmented, but still is 3ish pounds. Also, there Alum gunnels are much larger then Northstar/wenonah/souris, presumably because they hang their seats from them instead of riveting through the sides."

FWIW, NS hangs seats these days, but I did not know that NC's uncolored boats were still gel coated. I thought they were finished the same way as others. Ugh, I don't get that at all--gel coat is so frustrating. At least with color, I can understand how some might like it, but if it is just clear, why even have it at all?
Blech, that settles things for my current decision-making at least. Screw gel coat."

The gell coat is the very thing that makes it tough. Slides over rocks better and every deep scratch is not in to the actual fabric. It adds a lot of toughness.

I'm with you on this. You might as well go full pigment and get a more attractive boat with better uv resistance, or skin coat for a lighter boat that is way easier to repair.

To my understanding it is much harder to infuse without a gel coat.

I have a 1999 Bell canoe with a thick, clear gelcoat. It has three small gelcoat repairs from major impacts with rocks. The repairs were easy, the fabric was untouched and the boat is functionally like new again. I think the Bell catalog said colored gelcoat adds 2-3 pounds (!) so I'm happy with clear. I break ice with that Bell in the winter. I have a Swift with a thinner gelcoat than the older Bells but it still offers quite a bit of protection compared to the thin skincoat on new Blacklite Northstars.