In another post concerning the reduction of permits, a reply suggests (implies/insinuates/denigrates) the experience being sold by outfitters as "wilderness tripping" is something much less. (Exactly what the experience might be labelled is not stated.)

I am not looking to debate the concept of "wilderness" here. Those wishing to do so should search for a previous thread and weigh in there.

My question is this: What is the quality/character of what I will call the "BWCA Experience" that would have to cease to exist (or you think already has ceased to exist) to no longer be the "BWCA Experience"?

Is it encountering a certain number of people? Per day? Per trip?
A lack of solitude (whatever that means to you)?
Is it encountering a campsite left in less than pristine condition?
Waiting a few minutes (or more) at a portage end to get to come ashore?
A pair of people fishing off the campsite you are inhabiting?
Not getting that 5* campsite you had your heart set on?
Something else? A combination of these?

The "BWCA Experience" has changed a lot even in the 20 years or so that I have been going. Most has been incremental. The change happening now has been at autobahn speed by comparison.

Not so long ago we (those of us who were members of BWCA.com) were wondering where the next generation of trippers were going to come from. Well, they are here. In bunches! Now what do we do?

I have more thoughts but want to hear your perspectives first. What is the character of the BWCA that is disappearing (has disappeared) that most distresses you?

Clean water...drinking from almost all except entry lakes and now filtering most lakes.
Clean air...no people stink that has improved since 2 cycle motors are rare. And dark skies at night also still good.
Quiet...still pretty good once in beyond entry lakes but deteriorating.
LNT...definitely not as good and could become a deal breaker if it gets worse.

My opinion is the same as it was amid the permit reduction discussion.

The BWCA has always existed on the fringe of "true wilderness." It doesn't meet the national standards of a "wilderness" in every way (there were compromises) and it is too easy to access and too developed to be a wilderness in the broader ecosystem type definition. That said, it remains an essential piece of wild space and, for many people, it is the wildest place they'd ever visit.

As for the BW experience, I understand people's frustration, but I keep finding that the solution is just a little creativity away.

For instance, don't like how many people you see in peak season on Moose/Basswood/Sag/Seagull/The Numbers? Maybe go somewhere else in the wilderness if that's a deal breaker.

You want to go to the classic locations like Kek/Knife/Insula/LLC/Crooked/Foretown and not see people? Well you may need to extend your season? As soon as the snow flies, most of the people are gone.

You want to go to the BWCA and not see ANY people? Time to leave the routes. The PMA's are there and waiting.

Tired of seeing garbage in your campsite? Sorry, I hate that too. I have found that if I stay in campsites that are annoyingly out of the way or of lower quality to begin with, the use and the garbage go down.

Tired of not getting a 5 star campsite? Our state park system is incredible. You can RESERVE canoe in sites that will meet every need. An essential piece of the BW is first come first serve sites.

And if you want a true, untarnished wilderness experience: head west or head north. The BWCA has a history, a long history, of people using it and, sometimes, abusing it. It may be hidden well to the average user, but the evidence of its past is never far away.

I know it's frustrating to see huge crowds of people. I empathize with those who have had a miserably late afternoon going for miles without a campsite, and I am sad for those who cannot physically get themselves to a quieter part of the wilderness and yet crave the silence. But if my over 50 overnight trips into the BW has taught me anything it's that if my group ever wanted quiet I could ALWAYS find it for them. It may require a tough portage, traveling down a dead end, or having a long first day to get deeper, but I never was unable to get a group some quiet on the trip at some point.

And a final note. The BW has always been a balancing act of management. If the BW is truly a national treasure like so many of us claim, are we forfeiting its ability to be a national treasure by cutting thousands of people off from it by a permit reduction? Or is the opposite true that those thousands more people tarnish its ability to be a treasure? The BW is unique because, unlike many other wilderness areas in the US, it's not difficult or dangerous to access, it doesn't require specialized training or equipment to enter, and it's not so far away from populations that it can self-select: the permit system must do it instead. There will never be a decision made for this wilderness that makes EVERYONE happy. That's just the way it goes.

The funniest question I see is where can our group of nine go to get away from people. My answer is, your separate ways. Haha!
But seriously, you have to expect to see people. If you think the canoe area is crowded, littered, or whatever. Go try about any other type of camping or “wilderness” experience. We’re pretty spoiled I think. Like mentioned, if you want a better experience you might have to dig a little deeper in your pockets and go north. But really like bugs expect the worst and welcome the best.
I don’t mind seeing people, it’s just crowds of people I don’t enjoy. (Unless they are members of bwca.com at a wing night. Haha! There also are pma’s you can try... now with winter camping on the rise the “ wilderness” hardly has a chance to breath. Today’s wilderness is not yesterday’s for sure... but it’s what we have and enjoying it is how most of us have kept our sanity. Well, that and coffee. Haha. It excites me that people are still flocking there. I hope for efforts to help clean and maintain as we move forward. Many here carry out their fair share of extra trash. You think that’s bad... spend a winter in the desert.

North of the last road in Canada.

carbon1: "North of the last road in Canada."

I always felt I went to Canada for the solitude. In northwestern Ontario and northern Manitoba it is wild but there is plenty of evidence of past use particularly by the First Nations people who continue to reside on reserves. They don’t seem to travel in the bush as much as they used to but you can find plenty of evidence of past use.

I guess it depends on how you define wilderness. If you are looking for no evidence of human use, there probably isn’t much true wilderness left anywhere.

The 'BWCA Experience' to me is two things. Every campsite is on a lake, and walleye. Where else can you camp on a lakeside site with no one else within a 1/4 mile of you and catch walleye. I also like the campsites with fire grate and latrine.

I am not concerned about the recent surge of campers in the BW. I think it's a temporary issue. I have taken well over 100 people on trips over the past 10 years and maybe 6 have gone back. It's a lot of work and requires time, effort, and money to get 'good' at it. Most people in this day and age are not going to make it past a couple of trips.

We started going in the Ely area the first 3 years. You can hardly call it wilderness when multiple canoes pass your site each day. Then we switched to the Gunflint area. Big difference. However we were going the first week after Labor Day. Still saw canoes each day, although far less.

Now we go the last week of September, off one of the lakes in the Seagull area. We rarely if ever see another canoe that is not in our group. We don't allow radios, music, etc so we only hear sounds from nature. We have had moose come near, and even into our camp, each year we have gone for the last 5 years. We see otters, loons, and the occasional bear. We also experience what it is like to handle any type of weather. We have had temps warm enough to swim, and some years it has sleeted and snowed. That is what I call wilderness

Whenever this topic of what makes the wilderness comes up on this board, I am always remined of the following poem by Louis Jenkins, from Duluth.

"Some days are so sad nothing will help, when love has gone, when the sunshine and clear sky only tease and mock you. Those days you feel like running away, going where no one knows your name. Like slinging the old Gibson over your shoulder and travelling the narrow road to the North where the gray sky fits your mood and the cold wind blows a different kind of trouble. Nothing up there but mosquito-infested swamp, 10,000 acres of hummocky muck, a thicket of alder and dogwood, a twisted tangle of complications where not even Hemingway would fish. But somebody, someday soon, somebody will come and put up a bed and breakfast and a gourmet coffee shop. There is only one true wilderness left to explore, those vast empty spaces in your head.

Deep, Mr, Minnesota. Love it.
I have fought many wildfires in the wilderness areas of the US, including Alaska.

Most people stay on the big lakes or not far from the entry lakes. We day tripped over to Kiana from Thomas and it felt like very few people had been there. The one campsite we found was barely used , judging by the latrine, and we couldn't see the other one from the lake and didn't find it. The one we found was closed in and probably not a good summer site, but if you look for solitude you can probably find it. I don't actually like the 5 star sites usually because they are often overused and abused. I will admit some use makes the site more comfortable since they tend to be cleared of some brush and have more room. I recognize that it isn't the true "wilderness" experience however. I mostly go to get away from man made and engine noises for a while.

I think what makes the "BWCA experiance" is more of a feeling. My last trip...admittedly, it was on fishing opener, didn't really have that feeling. If I were to pinpoint something that detracted from it the most...it would be the crowds. There were people and canoes everywhere. Portages were packed, campsites were packed, we'd wake up to canoes fishing 40 yards off our site. It was just busy.

Part of it for me would be the ability to travel through an area at my leisure, or at least to travel without being stressed wondering whether I'll be able to find a place to camp.

Canoe and a paddle, otherwise its the VNP experience.

I always loved that wilderness is derived from the Old English word wildeornes meaning ‘land inhabited only by wild animals’ and I couldn't agree more.

Kermit: "I always loved that wilderness is derived from the Old English word wildeornes meaning ‘land inhabited only by wild animals’ and I couldn't agree more. "

Hey, welcome Kermit... like the input... not to many places can claim that anymore. But I think we try to replicate that scenario. In one sense we only inhabit as visitors so it could be true. But hardly a day goes by someone is not visiting. And it definitely is inhabited by human visitors. It’ll be an uphill battle to keep it as pristine as it has been for its short designation of being a wilderness, whether you can claim that true or not. But I give people of fifty years ago a lot of credit for doing what they did. It saddens me a good number of people don’t realize what we have here. I think the days are numbered you can grab a permit and just paddle your summers away. Used to be you could be any old joe and go in with an old battle worn canoe and a can of beans and enjoy the area extensively. More and more red tape and government may make it less available to those that enjoy it most and for what it is. I’m done myself... after many hundreds of miles of paddling it my body says no more. But for future generations of paddlers I hope it never looses its appeal to those that will preserve such a place.

Is the BWCA a true "wilderness" or not? That debate will go on forever but relative to my daily life it sure is and that's what satisfies me.

Crowded? Uhhh...not really. I'd say a stadium is crowded.
Trashed? Not so much. I regard the empty lot that I see daily across the road with paper, styrofoam, tires, building struts, plastic jugs, etc. that accumulate there regularly (shame, people!) as "trashed".
Noisy? I don't think so. The health of my hearing has never been threatened in the BWCA like it has been near a construction site. Nor have I ever been annoyed by sounds like those I have to tolerate on a city street where there is bumper to bumper traffic.

I could go on but my point is that we need to appreciate and enjoy the BWCA for what it is in the relative sense and for what experience it can bring you. While I don't always agree with methods employed to "preserve" this area and, at the same time, accomodate its visitors, I can accept and respect the efforts that are made to have this as an area which provides for a satisfying experience that differs greatly from most people's daily norm.

nctry: "

Kermit: "I always loved that wilderness is derived from the Old English word wildeornes meaning ‘land inhabited only by wild animals’ and I couldn't agree more. "

Hey, welcome Kermit... like the input... not to many places can claim that anymore. But I think we try to replicate that scenario. In one sense we only inhabit as visitors so it could be true. But hardly a day goes by someone is not visiting. And it definitely is inhabited by human visitors. It’ll be an uphill battle to keep it as pristine as it has been for its short designation of being a wilderness, whether you can claim that true or not. But I give people of fifty years ago a lot of credit for doing what they did. It saddens me a good number of people don’t realize what we have here. I think the days are numbered you can grab a permit and just paddle your summers away. Used to be you could be any old joe and go in with an old battle worn canoe and a can of beans and enjoy the area extensively. More and more red tape and government may make it less available to those that enjoy it most and for what it is. I’m done myself... after many hundreds of miles of paddling it my body says no more. But for future generations of paddlers I hope it never looses its appeal to those that will preserve such a place. "

I noticed you and I are the same age, 65. A few years ago I said "no more". With my wife's encouragement ( and the begging of the 15-18 guys I take up every fall) I decided to give it a go again but change it up to fit my abilities. Now I take the shuttle from Seagull Outfitters to the portage in to Red Rock lake. The shuttle driver even carries the canoe across for me on the short portage. I am at the camp site by 9:30 AM setting up our base camp. From there I just enjoy the week, paddle around Red Rock lake and fish when I want to, hang out when I want to.

Two guys went on the portage with me. . .both had been going to Red Rock lake for 40 years. (They were apparently Seagull Outfitters oldest customers). They paddled to their site, hung out for the week, and ate all the fish they could eat, then paddled back to the shuttle pick up and went home.

The wilderness experience is still there. . . we just have to understand it is not about how many portages we do, but about just stepping back and seeing the creation that God has left for us.

Wilderness is the type of word lawyers love; it is an opinion not a fact.
I have never been in the "wilderness" with a fire grate and toilet. I don't have to be in the wilderness to enjoy myself.
Happy New Year.

I agree that a lot of it is in your mind and what it takes for you to appreciate. A few years ago we camped on literally the first site you get to on Lake One. In July. But at some point the day trippers are gone and it was just us, an eagle and some loons and we were at peace in the BW. Ok, almost at peace. We did have two little kids with us but it was joyful to share with them.

Thank you for your post, gets a mind to thinkin.,,,,,

When would it no longer be the "BWCA Experience".

When I could no longer see the night sky minimally affected by artificial light.
When other people surrounded me that had arrived by mechanical transportation.
When beaver dams were no longer allowed to grow and flourish.
When I could hear the mechanical pursuits of other humans.
When someone was constantly checking on my safety and trying to make my life easier and more convenient and writes me a ticket for jumping off a cliff.
When I could buy anything I had forgotten or lost.
When the fish stopped biting, the loons stopped calling, the bugs quit biting and the campfire smoke had to run through a catalytic converter.
When I had to yield to the mining vehicles at stop signs.
When concessions are made for those of us who are not in their prime physical condition anymore.
When a boat load of grossly overweight tourist beat me to my favorite fishing site because they paid for a guide with dual 250 outboards.
When I am required by law to filter my water.
When I have to pack as heavy as Stu.

I probably should stop there. I still love the BWCA and will be back this summer, and hopefully every summer.