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Mink18
  
09/09/2022 03:38PM  
Hi!

I'm still trying to gather the best winter BWCA gear as the years go by. My main question now, what is your go-to layering system for middle of winter??

I've heard that breathable beats waterproofing in the middle of winter. My biggest concern, though, is wind protection. I'd love to invest in some high quality wool bibs/jacket (possibly from wintergreen) but wonder if wind cuts through them? We like to fish, but that gets pretty miserable if you can't stay warm and it's hard to stay sheltered in the middle of a lake.

Would love some brand recommendations (budget/splurging), layering go-tos, clothing packing lists for varying length trips, etc.. we usually do a destination/base camp-style trip to a fishing lake and stay for a few days.

-k
 
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09/10/2022 09:25AM  
Anoraks in wool/nylon/polyester/cotton canvas, are versatile outer layering garments. I have several all bought thru military surplus or ebay.

butthead
 
Marten
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09/12/2022 06:04PM  
I only use the wind proof layer when its really needed. While active you want that moisture wicking out and gone. Block the wicking and condensation follows under your outer layer and starts soaking your inner layers. When idle you can enjoy the wind proof garments without getting damp under them. So no one combo will work in all situations.
 
mschi772
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09/12/2022 11:48PM  
Below is going to be a copy of a post on winter clothing I made on social media some time ago. To cut to your question of wind protection, there are tightly-woven canvas shells that are popular for wind protection as they are effective while still allowing you to breath and release moisture. More modern are what are known as hard shells in the industry. I've been known to just throw my rain jacket on as a wind break at times, but it doesn't fit over my full winter outfit and traps a lot of moisture which is a very bad idea in the bitter cold. Being dry is the single most important thing in the cold. I'd rather feel a little chilly and be dry than be warm and damp/sweaty. As soon as you're wet, you're in magnitudes greater danger.


I have recently been inspired by a friend to try to make a guide for clothing for winter camping (or just plain cold and extreme cold winters in general). This is going to be a very long one, but if you're at all interested in a warmer winter wardrobe, please give me the chance to hopefully help you out here. Clothing is much more diverse and personal than other gear, so I'm not able to really provide quite as clear recommendations as my other gear lists, but what I think I can do is explain the dos and don'ts I've learned after a lifetime outdoors and many years working professionally outdoors in forests and other natural areas in winter including some wickedly cold and long days out in the elements. I can also provide some guidelines and a few recommendations for selecting gear that can be relied upon.
First, layers. If you find yourself relying or thinking you'll rely on just one item for a given body part, you're doing it wrong. A single, big, heavy jacket might be warm, but something like that is difficult to combine with other things to make warmer, and it is impossible to make cooler if you find yourself getting too warm--working up a sweat is something you really want to avoid in the cold winter because, more important than the minor discomfort, you are put at much greater risk of hypothermia as sweat interferes with your insulation and pulls heat away from you. I wear *at least* two layers on everything: my head, torso, hands, legs, and feet.
Second, materials. With few exceptions, leave the cotton at home. I don't care if your parents taught you that cotton flannel is a warm, winter thing or if you think jeans are good for everything. Cotton is dangerous. Once it gets damp, either with sweat or water/snow, it likes to stay that way, and it no longer insulates you properly. Not only is that uncomfortable, but, as mentioned above, that is dangerous. Cotton takes a long time to dry. "Cotton kills" is not an uncommon phrase in the outdoors, and for good reasons. Also avoid rayon, bamboo, tencel, and silk. I have less experience with hemp, but what few hemp items I have used have behaved similarly to cotton, so I would also steer you away from hemp.
So what should you use? Synthetics, down, wool, and hide/fur. Regarding synthetics, due to the growing plastic crisis every square inch of the planet is facing these days, I'm doing what I can to distance myself from synthetics as much as possible, but it is very difficult and pricey to eliminate them completely, so my advice regarding synthetics is to use what you already own if it'll work or to purchase from companies that are as responsible as they can be--look for things like certified B-corps, heavy use of repurposed and recycled materials, responsible disposal of products/materials... Make sure you scrutinize the company behind the product not only to be sure of the quality of the product but to gain some reasonable verification of responsible environmental actions. I am not at all saying that you should not buy synthetics. They're quite good at what they do and can be budget-friendly. I'm just saying to carefully select what you buy so that you can get the most out of it with the least harm done. I own synthetic items currently. There's no shame in it; just be mindful.
Synthetics make for good moisture wicking, insulation, and can keep insulating even when wet. Down is a fantastic insulator, but it totally loses that insulation when wet, so make sure to use it in a way that keeps it dry (wear it under a shell/rain gear if wetness is expected). Wool (sheep/merino, alpaca, yak, etc) handles moisture from you and your environment very well, it stays warm when wet, quality wool is very strong, and it breathes very well; wool really is fantastic. Oh, and if you think all wool is itchy, you're wrong. Merino wool, alpaca, and yak wool are all quite comfortable against the skin; I know because I own various garments of each, and all of them are worn directly against my skin. Fur is a niche thing. There are responsible sources of fur, so as long as you're careful where it is coming from, it can be quite ethical, however its uses tend to be limited to hats/hoods, gloves, and maybe some minor enhancements to garments of other materials. Fur is very warm and can resist a fair amount of wind and moisture.
Third, the purpose of various layers and what materials do well for them. Closest to your body is what most refer to as your base layer. Think of long underwear ("long johns"), but NOT cotton. This layer does work to keep you warm, but equally or more important is its role in wicking moisture away from you. Synthetics and wools are the way to go here and should be tight to your body. Not squeezing blood out of your limbs tight, but tight enough to be against your skin rather than baggy; you want your base layer making contact with your skin as much as possible. Your outermost layer is what I and some would call the "shell." This layer isn't always necessary depending on conditions as its role is to block wind and external moisture like snow/rain/dew from wetting your insulation. Synthetics are most common here, and this is where cotton can make an appearance, especially for extreme cold as a specific weave of cotton canvas, sometimes combined with wax, is a more traditional and very effective shell in extreme cold where wetness is less of an issue; a cotton shell will breathe where a synthetic one won't, so you'll feel much more comfortable and less clammy. If it is still and dry out, you can often leave this layer off, but I'd advise always having it along because conditions can change fast.
Between your base and shell is what I and most would call the mid-layer. This is where your insulation lives. Wool, down, synthetic/fleece is generally what you'd put here. Don't be afraid to have multiple mid-layers. Just be mindful of fluffy down/synthetic layers being squeezed/crushed too much by outer layers. Insulation is achieved with trapped air, and crushing all the air out of a puffy mid-layer defeats its purpose. If necessary, size-up on upper/outer layers in order to prevent them from being too tight on underlying layers.
These principles apply to areas like feet, hands, and your head just as much as your body. I'd advise wearing a thinner synthetic or wool hat/balaclava with another, warmer hat over that. Wear thin glove liners inside of your gloves/mittens. Don't be afraid to do glove liners inside of light gloves inside of heavier mittens. Wear a thinner synthetic or wool sock inside of heavy wool socks inside of whatever boot you've chosen. Not only does this manage moisture better, but it allows you to add and remove a layer at a time as you get warmer and colder so that you can more accurately maintain that perfect temperature where you're not cold but also not sweating a bunch.
Regarding specific recommendations, I am trying to generate a concise list or two, but I have not completed anything like that as of yet. For now, I will merely suggest some brands that I have found, with one or more of their products, to be effective, dependable, and relatively or very environmentally responsible. I refuse to ever endorse a product just because it is cheap. Cheap stuff often fails you and the environment, forcing you to buy replacements more frequently and spending more in the long run than if you invest in something of better quality to begin with.
Brands of clothing I have had recommendation-worthy success with and have passed being tested in real-world use in truly cold and extremely cold conditions are, in no particular order:
Patagonia
Icebreaker
Arms of Andes
Kora Outdoor
Johnson Woolen Mills
Outdoor Research
Dachstein Woolwear
Marmot
Montbell
Boreal Mountain Anoraks
Empire Wool & Canvas
REI
Darn Tough Vermont
Wigwam
Black Diamond
Cotopaxi
Wristies
Baffin
Kamik
Dryshod
Sorel
Steger
This is by no means an exhaustive list of all the great choices out there. For now, this is just a list of brands that have earned my respect for at least one of their products in regards to cold and extreme cold winter work and recreation. While I have not used any of them, military surplus ECWCS (Extended Cold Weather Clothing System) items are said to be great budget items. I can't say for sure. Some military surplus items for outdoor use are really excellent. Some isn't so great. I'm not sure where the ECWCS clothing is on that spectrum.
 
BrianDay
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09/13/2022 11:53AM  
This article in an in-depth discussion of the advantages of an air permeable clothing system for winter travel.

Soft Shells for Winter Layering

Brian
 
BrianDay
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09/13/2022 12:56PM  
Here's an article on layering for winter travel with traditional wool and cotton canvas gear. I'm poking fun at this gear (which I feel OK about doing because I've used it a lot) but if you read between the lines you'll find some good advice about what to wear as part of a traditional winter clothing system.

Retro Grouch Winter Layering
 
gravelroad
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09/17/2022 06:49PM  
BrianDay: "Here's an article on layering for winter travel with traditional wool and cotton canvas gear. I'm poking fun at this gear (which I feel OK about doing because I've used it a lot) but if you read between the lines you'll find some good advice about what to wear as part of a traditional winter clothing system.


Retro Grouch Winter Layering "


"Retro grouches disdain index shifting, ride leather saddles, cycle in wool shorts and prefer lugged steel frames. "

Sheldon Brown's ghost would like a word. ;-)
 
northerncanoe
member (22)member
  
09/17/2022 09:17PM  
It is good to be thinking about this stuff now. You can plan and build out your kit over time when you can find things on sale. Like other posters have said, buy the best you can once, instead of buying junk first and then the good stuff the second time around.

I have two Wintergreen jackets, the classic winter weight anorak and the boundary waters hooded windshirt. The windshirt is the one of my best gear purchases in a long time. It fits excellent with a fairly long cut, it has tons of ventilation options and breathes very well. I wear it cross country skiing, snow shoeing, biking all year round (I had them sew the reflective ribbon on the back of the jacket as well),canoeing, hiking and walking the dog. The sew quality of their clothing is just amazing.

I have a fair amount of wool clothing and I continue to be amazed at a what an incredible fabric it is. It regulates temperature well and is comfortable, but probably one of the best feature of wool base layers is they do not stink. Most synthetic base layers stink real bad after a day of hard use. That is not the case with wool.

Speaking of synthetics, I have a lot of Duluth Trading Co. clothing. Their stuff wears like iron and is very functional. They make the best canoe pants around. They often have sales so if you find something you like, wait until it is on sale.

Patagonia makes very durable and functionable clothes and they have big sales twice a year when you can find some incredible deals.

As many have said before, there is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing. I truly love winter and being outside in it. I have invested in good clothing and it really does make a difference.

Good luck out there.

Mike

 
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