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rick00001967
senior member (75)senior membersenior member
  
03/18/2023 02:27PM  
hi all.

i have been researching what to buy for a new paddle. i would love some advise.

i currently have a 54" beaver tail with a 31" shaft. i think that size shaft is about right for me.

after a lot of thought and just as much reading, i am thinking of getting a paddle with a slimmer blade. my reasoning being that a slimmer blade will have a lot less resistance at the start of the stroke. that would seem to be helpful in taking some of the load off my shoulders when my arms are extended and at their most vulnerable.

a local store up here in the great white north sells Grey Owl paddles. i am considering the Sagamore model.

the fella at the store also showed me a Northern LIght model which is slimmer than my beaver tail but not as slim as the sagamore. it is about a half pund lighter though.

i have never tried either of these paddles so i am torn between which might be better for my shoulders.....the slimmer blade or the lighter weight.

any other suggestions are certainly welcome.

the wife and i will be headed to minnesota next month so we will be driving through grand marais, duluth, and on the minneapolis. so if there are any special paddle shops to stop at that might have what i need pls let me know.

thx
rick


grey owl
 
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03/18/2023 06:38PM  
Hi Rick, I'll suggest taking a close look at carbon fiber paddles. Extremely lightweight and efficient in the water. The price tag will be high but buy once cry once as they say. Of course I'm not a doctor but it seems logical that you'll feel most comfortable with the lightest stick possible.

Zaveral paddles are excellent and seem to be the gold standard for marathoners, but there are other brands out there to consider. Nothing feels as "good" as wood but carbon is pretty sweet when you're putting on miles.

 
03/18/2023 07:25PM  
Second what faders up said. Most you can do for your shoulder is to reduce weight of paddle- a 7.5oz ZRE with an 8" wide blade will make a huge difference. I think they feel better than wood and certainly offer more feedback during the stroke. If you sit when paddling (rather than kneeling) consider a bent for greater efficiency. You can further reduce shoulder strain by increasing your cadence with shorter strokes (return before your lower hand reaches your hip)
 
kona
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03/18/2023 09:41PM  
I’d suggest two or three of the following options, each of which helps when my shoulder with tendinitis is flaring up:
1) smaller blade area. Less work per stroke and. More strokes. Lots of options to consider but look for something in the 95-110 square inch area.
2) shorter shaft length. Lowering your grip hand with a shorter shaft will make a huge difference.
3) a paddle with some flex in the shaft (wood or fiberglass and not carbon).
 
rick00001967
senior member (75)senior membersenior member
  
03/19/2023 07:39AM  
kona: "I’d suggest two or three of the following options, each of which helps when my shoulder with tendinitis is flaring up:
1) smaller blade area. Less work per stroke and. More strokes. Lots of options to consider but look for something in the 95-110 square inch area.
2) shorter shaft length. Lowering your grip hand with a shorter shaft will make a huge difference.
3) a paddle with some flex in the shaft (wood or fiberglass and not carbon). "


points 1 and 2 were my thoughts exactly.
the sagamore i am considering would be 85 to 90 sq in.
i also think the shorter shaft may help. the further apart my hands are the worse it feels. i just wish i could try a shorter one before having to order it.
never considered flex but i suppose that also makes sense.
the other suggestions about less strokes and a faster pace are things i def need to work on. i tend to pull fairly hard when i am soloing.
i have never looked at carbon paddles but i would assume might be too pricey for me. but it is worth a look.
 
03/19/2023 08:00AM  
I don't think the flex of the shaft is significant (paddle is gripped at the ends so shaft flex offers little relief to shoulder). The price of a carbon blade is worth it- insignificant when spread out over the life of a paddle. After all it is your shoulder..... what's another $200 spread out over 10-20 years? Difference between a light wood paddle (16oz) and carbon fiber amounts to lifting 5000# less in the course of a five hour day of moderately brisk paddling.
 
03/19/2023 08:27AM  
Our move to carbon paddles made an immediate decline in sore shoulders. Check them out.

TZ
 
kona
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03/19/2023 08:40AM  
Banksiana: "I don't think the flex of the shaft is significant (paddle is gripped at the ends so shaft flex offers little relief to shoulder). The price of a carbon blade is worth it- insignificant when spread out over the life of a paddle. After all it is your shoulder..... what's another $200 spread out over 10-20 years? Difference between a light wood paddle (16oz) and carbon fiber amounts to lifting 5000# less in the course of a five hour day of moderately brisk paddling."


Paddling whitewater canoes I have found the stiffness of a carbon shaft to make a substantial difference in increasing my tendinitis, vs the same paddle and length in a fiberglass option (Werner bandit carbon vs. Werner bandit glass). I sold the carbon version. I do still paddle flatwater with carbon, regularly. I also find the subtle flex difference of wood to offer substantial returns, in real time, at the end of a long day

I have also found shortening the shaft to make an even larger difference in my shoulder response. I like to keep the grip hand pretty low, and prefer shaft lengths several inches short yet than most folks my height have been advised to use.

I agree paddle weight makes a big difference on long days. 16oz feels like half the paddle of a 25oz paddle. 8-10oz is next level.

YMMV

Edit: Midwest mountaineering in Minneapolis has canoe paddles but the selection is mostly low to lower mid range canoe paddles.
 
03/19/2023 09:01AM  
Get a ZRE. I have had rotator/biceps repairs on both shoulders, and I will not use any other paddle. At 7.5 ounces, it has made a huge difference. That said, I do not freestyle paddle nor do any whitewater. All of my paddling is on flat water and almost always trips that have me moving daily.
 
osteology
member (7)member
  
03/19/2023 09:32AM  
One other benefit of carbon if you are considering a shorter shaft: you can request that the handle not be glued. The handle is a snug fit and can be test paddled using electrical tape. Paddle, trim, paddle and repeat as needed till you get to where you need and then glue. The trimming is easy with a fine bladed hacksaw.
ZREs are often recommended but another option is GRB Newman Designs. I love mine and Gene Newman was helpful, and a pleasure to deal with. The 6 deg. bent that I have is $210 + shipping.

https://www.grbnewmandesigns.com/
 
portagedog09
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03/19/2023 09:41AM  
You might also look at the Werner Algonquin in carbon fiber. It has a smaller blade than most other carbon fiber blades out there at 95 sq. in. It is under 12 ounces and a great blade. It offers a smaller catch than most others. I owned one and paddled it for a good bit, really liked it but ended up selling it as it was just too small for my preference. It would be a good fit for what you're looking for. ZRE does not list blade area in sq. in. on its site, but I'm sure they would provide that if asked. I did paddle a friend's ZRE blade on one trip for a bit and really liked it, but not significantly more that my Bending Branches Black Pearl II to spend the bucks. I concur with the others on shaft length and feel most people go too long. Any time your grip hand is at/above your should the risk of injury increases significantly. I paddle a 52" bent. I don't have shoulder issues, but carpal tunnel and the lower weight does help a lot for me.

pd
 
03/19/2023 09:49AM  
For me the huge 'ah-ha' moment with a CF paddle (I have a ZRE) was the incredible buoyancy. At the end of the stroke, the paddle literally is pushing up, 'popping' out of the water. Delightful.
 
rick00001967
senior member (75)senior membersenior member
  
03/19/2023 10:29AM  
i sure appreciate all the info. keep it coming.

btw.....i had no idea there would be so much support for use of a carbon paddle. i certainly have seen many kayak paddles made of carbon or canoe users that use a double blade carbon paddle, but honestly never even considered buying a carbon single blade.

sounds like the best solution is to combine a reduction in weight, blade area, and a shorter shaft. looks like i am on the right track. now to find one avail to me in a price range i am comfortable with.

i will keep in mind the point made that if a paddle will last the rest of my life (i'm old lol) it is a small cost over that time. the only hiccup might be is if i buy an expensive one and it turns out not to be right for me.
 
rick00001967
senior member (75)senior membersenior member
  
03/19/2023 10:47AM  
btw i should clarify......i do not do any white water canoeing. it will be all flat water lakes and rivers etc
 
03/19/2023 11:12AM  
If you’re looking at ZRE, go with a “blem” for a discount. I’ve ordered two and couldn’t tell what the blemish was.

Resale value is very good if you decide it doesn’t work for you. But I think after one test drive you’ll decide to hang on to it ;)
 
scottiebaldwin
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03/19/2023 11:42AM  
All these responses are excellent. I would submit that if you are hell bent on a wood paddle because of the relationship of wood to the water, consider looking at some of the skinnier models of Sanborn. They are very, very, lightweight for wood. I have two carbon fiber paddles and two wooden Sanborn and I consistently grab the wood ones when I head up on trips. Good luck and I hope your shoulders feel better!
 
andym
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03/19/2023 02:42PM  
Two notes on ZRE:
1. You can choose your blade width and so the blade area isn’t fixed for each model. You can modify some other things but some cost a bit more (e.g. blade angle).

2. On some models, they offer a flex shaft. I’ve never tried one and so don’t know how it feels. But if you want flex and super lightweight, I would give them a call and see what is possible and what they suggest. Maybe it is possible on some other blades as a special order.

We do love ours and if, after over 20 years, we find the blemishes that made them cheaper we will probably blame it on something we did while paddling. I gave up looking a while ago.

You can probably also get some customization from smaller paddle makers. Can’t hurt to ask what is possible and what it would cost.
 
justpaddlin
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03/19/2023 08:38PM  
In my experience even the standard ZRE's have some flex...more flex than most carbon paddles. They do show blade area on their site; I'd recommend the standard 8.25 inch width which gives 105 square inch blade area. I also strongly agree that the GRB Newman Designs paddles are a great value for just over $200. I love my 6 degree bent. If you stick with wood frankly I'd avoid the Sagamore or any other long-bladed paddle since a long lever is gonna hurt you more than a short one. In the Grey Owl line I'd recommend the Fleetwood.
 
Naught
member (7)member
  
03/20/2023 09:40AM  
I ordered a Newman on February 10th, they said 2-3 weeks, emailed on March 10th they said it would go out the following week.....still waiting. Would not reccomend.
 
rick00001967
senior member (75)senior membersenior member
  
03/20/2023 11:07AM  
Naught: "I ordered a Newman on February 10th, they said 2-3 weeks, emailed on March 10th they said it would go out the following week.....still waiting. Would not reccomend."


sorry for your situation. no one ever likes to see a customer waiting beyong the timeline they were initially given. but it happens.

like you, as a customer, i find this very frustrating. i would rather they tell me it will be 3 months and have it arrive early, rather than tell me 3 weeks and have it be late. but that is a typical salesman tactic. do what you have to to get the sale, then worry about the fall out later.

in todays business climate (especially in manufacturing) the reality is there still are problems with the supply chain for many raw materials.

i have two customers of mine that have been waiting about a year for parts for their equipment. every month or two i am told by the suppliers it will be another month or two. lol i have basically given up at this point and figure i will most likely never see these parts.

hopefully you will get your order soon. spring ain't here yet anyway so......
 
EddyTurn
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03/20/2023 11:39AM  
I ditto above suggestions of ZRE light carbon paddle with extra flex. Bent shaft is an option worth considering. It could be successfully used both sitting and kneeling. Besides the hardware some adjustments in paddling technique could be beneficial for bad shoulders, like using torso rotation instead of extending and retracting of the arms.
 
rick00001967
senior member (75)senior membersenior member
  
03/20/2023 11:53AM  
Bent shaft is an option worth considering. some adjustments in paddling technique could be beneficial for bad shoulders, like using torso rotation instead of extending and retracting of the arms."


100% agree on the rotation comment. i did start focusing more on that last year. thx.

i must say i am a bit surprised (again lol) how many seem to suggest the use of a bent paddle.

from what i see, a bent paddle looks to be ideal for some that bow paddle. but i don't believe it lends itself as well to a stern paddler when compared to a straight paddle. especially if they are solo.

feel free to set me straight on that if i am off base.
 
03/20/2023 12:28PM  
rick00001967: "
Bent shaft is an option worth considering. some adjustments in paddling technique could be beneficial for bad shoulders, like using torso rotation instead of extending and retracting of the arms."



100% agree on the rotation comment. i did start focusing more on that last year. thx.


i must say i am a bit surprised (again lol) how many seem to suggest the use of a bent paddle.


from what i see, a bent paddle looks to be ideal for some that bow paddle. but i don't believe it lends itself as well to a stern paddler when compared to a straight paddle. especially if they are solo.


feel free to set me straight on that if i am off base."


If you are using a center seat solo (not kneeling) a bent is ideal. Corrective strokes (j-stroke or rudder) are extremely inefficient from the center. Center seated solos best propelled by switching sides rather than using a corrective stroke. In a tandem in which you sit (rather than kneel) a bent shaft allows the blade to be vertical during nearly the entire stroke, thus increasing the efficiency of the motion (more of your energy expended is put towards propelling a hull), a straight shaft will not be as vertical during the stroke, thus more of the energy expended is wasted pulling the hull into the water or lifting it out. If kneeling a straight shaft is the better option. All of this depends on proper technique and length of stroke, recovery should begin before your lower hand reaches you hip. One can effectively control direction with a bent using a j-stroke (ruddering, or progressive ruddering- either term your stealing from your forward motion to correct your lateral motion, i'd rather just switch sides).
 
03/20/2023 12:54PM  
rick00001967: "
Bent shaft is an option worth considering. some adjustments in paddling technique could be beneficial for bad shoulders, like using torso rotation instead of extending and retracting of the arms."



100% agree on the rotation comment. i did start focusing more on that last year. thx.


i must say i am a bit surprised (again lol) how many seem to suggest the use of a bent paddle.


from what i see, a bent paddle looks to be ideal for some that bow paddle. but i don't believe it lends itself as well to a stern paddler when compared to a straight paddle. especially if they are solo.


feel free to set me straight on that if i am off base."


I use a double bent shaft (Manta Ray) and I'm always either solo or in the stern. It has really helped me with shoulder and elbow pain.

Plus I'm now working with a rehab physical therapist to increase upper body strength as I age and decrease the things I do that aggravate my existing injuries to those shoulders and elbows. I feel like I can already sense a difference after 2 weeks. So that's something to look at maybe- a good trainer.
 
03/20/2023 03:30PM  
Bent shafts are always more efficient on the forward stroke, correction strokes a bit less but bent shafts can be enjoyable and effective from all positions (bow/stern, sit/kneel, solo). If you plan to travel any distance and can only choose one paddle, I’d go bent.

 
MagicMan1
senior member (61)senior membersenior member
  
03/20/2023 03:48PM  
I agree 9000 % with dogwoodgirl. Explore how pt can help you mitigate the shoulder issues. A quality therapist will pinpoint your muscular deficiencies/injury and suggest a targeted strengthening program. You say you will be swinging through the Twin Cities. Several world-class sports medicine facilities there can help. TRIA in Bloomington!
 
TreeBear
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03/20/2023 09:36PM  
There's so much good advice going around on this post. I love it! Sorry if I am repeating something someone else has said. I don't have too much to add, just one thing. I have dealt with lots of tendentious related to paddling from horrible wrist stuff (I couldn't lift 10 pounds at the end of the summer without closing the wrist and using the forearm) and a nasty round of "tennis elbow." What I learned was, so much of soreness comes from techniques portaging and paddling. Everyone's advice about gear is awesome, and might just fix the sore shoulders. I know for me, all the pain was from doing things wrong and so I had to change up how I did things to make sure I didn't hurt afterwards. I learned the wrist stuff came from using the wrists to turn the j-stroke. I switched to a bent shaft paddle which mitigated that and tried to used my body more for turning. The elbow was from snapping the top arm to straight at the top of the stroke (just how I was taught.) For your shoulders, it might be the paddle weight. You may also be able to mitigate how much torque you put on your shoulders by changing to a shorter, faster stroke (less strain per stroke.) As others mentioned, shifting what part of your body is responsible like turning your back through a stroke or really relying on your core for paddling. I had a guiding friend who basically paddled like a rower leaning forward and back through a stroke. It's tiring, but we all have our weak spots and have to compensate somewhere for it!
 
justpaddlin
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03/21/2023 05:40AM  
rick00001967: "
Bent shaft is an option worth considering. some adjustments in paddling technique could be beneficial for bad shoulders, like using torso rotation instead of extending and retracting of the arms."



100% agree on the rotation comment. i did start focusing more on that last year. thx.


i must say i am a bit surprised (again lol) how many seem to suggest the use of a bent paddle.


from what i see, a bent paddle looks to be ideal for some that bow paddle. but i don't believe it lends itself as well to a stern paddler when compared to a straight paddle. especially if they are solo.


feel free to set me straight on that if i am off base."


One thing about a bent shaft is that it has a softer catch; the most powerful part of the stroke comes later than with a straight shaft so when the blade of a bent shaft first enters the water it can't produce as much power as a more-vertical straight shaft and therefore it doesn't tug as hard on your shoulder at the beginning of a stroke. It's a noticeable effect (I have both straight shaft and bent shaft ZRE's).

Just fishing for things that might help your shoulder. You're right in that a bent isn't as ideal for a stern paddler but as others have said you can still do steering and correction strokes with a bent.
 
03/21/2023 09:23AM  
justpaddlin: " You're right in that a bent isn't as ideal for a stern paddler but as others have said you can still do steering and correction strokes with a bent."


Disagree completely. A bent is every bit as capable in the stern as a straight shaft, and, if you're paddling from a seated position, considerably more efficient. Of all the folks I've introduced to bent shafts over the years (starting in the 80's when they were a bit rare) not one has ever gone back to straight.
 
mgraber
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03/21/2023 04:22PM  
Agree with Banks completely, I would never ever go back. No problems in the stern whatsoever. And I J-Stroke like crazy, as well as fish a lot, so I do all kinds of maneuvers. If you have shoulder issues, I think a narrow long paddle is the worst possible choice. When my shoulders started to fall apart going UL bent shaft and much shorter was a godsend.
 
justpaddlin
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03/22/2023 06:34AM  
For me the biggest thing you give up with a bent in the stern is aesthetics...it's just not as purely enjoyable to steer with a bent shaft, especially in maneuverable boats on moving water. If I want to practice tandem freestyle I'll use a straight shaft every time even though a bent would work. On power strokes you give up the option for in-water recoveries with a bent or at least it feels odd. I also enjoy steering a boat from a kneeling position considerably more than sitting because for me it feels like a more stable and capable position so for me sitting with a bent is a double give-up.
 
03/22/2023 08:29AM  
justpaddlin: "For me the biggest thing you give up with a bent in the stern is aesthetics...it's just not as purely enjoyable to steer with a bent shaft, especially in maneuverable boats on moving water. If I want to practice tandem freestyle I'll use a straight shaft every time even though a bent would work. On power strokes you give up the option for in-water recoveries with a bent or at least it feels odd. I also enjoy steering a boat from a kneeling position considerably more than sitting because for me it feels like a more stable and capable position so for me sitting with a bent is a double give-up.
"


If you kneel a straight is a better option. Basically when seated a bent allows the blade to move through the water with the vertical orientation one achieves kneeling with a straight. On whitewater trips we traded our bents for straights when we were shooting rapids.
 
YardstickAngler
senior member (84)senior membersenior member
  
03/22/2023 11:46AM  
Naught: "I ordered a Newman on February 10th, they said 2-3 weeks, emailed on March 10th they said it would go out the following week.....still waiting. Would not reccomend."


I ordered mine February 1st and received it last week. I’m eager to try it out. I emailed Gene a couple times throughout the process and he always responded the very next morning. When I asked where mine was (since it had been a while), he said he was waiting on a shipment of decals. I bet you’ll see yours very soon.
 
EddyTurn
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03/22/2023 07:18PM  
Banksiana: "If you kneel a straight is a better option. Basically when seated a bent allows the blade to move through the water with the vertical orientation one achieves kneeling with a straight. On whitewater trips we traded our bents for straights when we were shooting rapids."

With all due respect, kneeling doesn't make much difference in regard to how and where a paddle enters the water and therefore - to how it moves. Kneeling changes how one controls the boat with their body, that's it. Regardless of whether I sit or kneel, my upper body position is almost identical, may be an inch further forward when kneeling, so my paddle trajectory is almost identical as well. I kneel 90% of the time and mostly use bent-shaft since it's more efficient and less physically demanding.
 
03/22/2023 08:21PM  
EddyTurn: "
With all due respect, kneeling doesn't make much difference in regard to how and where a paddle enters the water and therefore - to how it moves. Kneeling changes how one controls the boat with their body, that's it. Regardless of whether I sit or kneel, my upper body position is almost identical, may be an inch further forward when kneeling, so my paddle trajectory is almost identical as well. I kneel 90% of the time and mostly use bent-shaft since it's more efficient and less physically demanding."



Kneeling doesn't make a difference in how and where but it makes a considerable difference in the angle of the blade of the paddle as it moves through the water. Kneeling brings your shoulder forward from your hips making it much easier to maintain a vertical blade with a straight shaft. When you sit with a straight shaft the blade exits the water at a considerable angle off vertical (roughly 12 degrees for most folk) effectively pulling your hull down into the water- this is why the bend was added to the blade. The paddle stroke is most efficient when the blade is near vertical.
 
EddyTurn
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03/26/2023 04:57PM  
Thanks, Banksiana, your explanation totally makes sense, especially the part about straight-shaft paddle entering the water at more vertical. I'm not sure it squares up when you describe how the straight shaft blade exits the water: paddling flat water the blade is rotated 90 degrees before the exit. And this process should start at the heap, even if no correction follows. At least that's what I do and what I was taught. Therefore there's almost no vertical force applied to the hull. And I can't agree on disadvantages of bent-shaft for kneeling position.
 
03/27/2023 08:22AM  
What works for you is what works! Keep it up.

A kneeling position that is less vertical gives advantage to the bent.
Failed to consider a rational exit strategy for straight shaft. My bad. I shifted to a bent in 85 for all flatwater paddling. My technique is rusty.
 
rick00001967
senior member (75)senior membersenior member
  
08/12/2023 10:28AM  
i thought i would post a quick update......i ended up ordering a grey owl chieftain in cherry with a urethane finish.
after a couple of months of physiotherapy i was able to get back on the water earlier this year.
shoulders feel substantially better. not 100% yet but no more pain when paddling.
love the paddle.
it wont win any races but that was the whole idea. it has far less surface area than my beaver tale and is quite a bit lighter.
i went with a 52" which was shorter than recommended but it has worked out just as i hoped.
thx for all the input
 
OCDave
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08/12/2023 03:46PM  
rick0001967,

Congrats on your new paddle. Hope it helps keep you paddling for the foreseeable future.

I realize this is just a bit too late, but: My own, shoulder sparing paddle, is a Badger Paddles Sliver . It is a bit narrower and a bit longer than the Chieftain but, might be worth adding to your paddle collection.

I resort to my Sliver late in the day when fatigued. It's a noticeable reduction in shoulder strain but also canoe speed. I actually use my Sliver much less these days as I have built up some paddling stamina.

Badger Paddles are produced by Mike and Fiona Ramsay in Muskoka, Ontario. I ordered mine from Rutabaga Paddlesports in WI, but I believe they are more widely available in Canada.

Again,
Congrats and Good Luck
 
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