:Wave:

In this other post on the winter forum, I shared that I’m toying with the idea of staying on the periphery of the BWCA this winter. I’ve never camped in winter & will need to outfit myself with gear. Throwing out a lifeline seeking advice on what I’ll need & recommendations on specific gear items.

Group Gear List

Personal Gear List

Tent?
I think I'll be going with a 10x12 with cookshack from WallTentShop.com & their Yukon 5 stove. Tyler from their shop replied promptly that a 10x12 should be sufficient size & two cords of wood should be good.

Snowtrekker

Walltentshop.com

Arctic Oven

Davis Tent

Stove?
Four Dog DX

Four Dog Ultra-light II

Kni-Co
Walltentshop.com

Cold weather gear?
Mackinaw Field Pants

Mackinaw Bibs

Down Cruiser Jacket

Permafrost Parka

Footwear?
Lacrosse Ice King

Mukluks

Head/face wear?
Goggles?
Gloves?
Snowshoes/skis?
Sled/toboggan?
Paris Pulk

Auger?
Nils Auger

Ice fishing gear?
Icehouse?
Sleeping bag/system (I have a semi-quilt rated to 30* & inflatable + foam pad)?
Cot

Exped Megamat 10

Exped Dura 8R

I’m sure I’m missing plenty on that list haha.
Thank you!!

I'd recommend a Roll-a-cot and an Exped down filled air mattress.

bobbernumber3: "I'd recommend a Roll-a-cot and an Exped down filled air mattress."

I'd avoid a cot for winter camping. Even with the down-filled mattress it would be far colder than the same mattress on the ground.

When I started winter camping, I found the Lure of the North Personal gear list and the Group gear list useful. They list both top of the line and more economical options.

For a hot tent, the Snowtrekkers are usually considered the best but very pricey. You can get cheaper non-canvas options from other companies like, Pomoly, Seek Outside, OneTigris. These might have more condensation issues though.

For a stove, Four Dog titanium stoves are top of the line, but Kni-co steel stoves work very well and are cheaper. If you are planning to pull a pulk, then weight is less of an issue. I have a Pomoly T-Brick which is very nice since it's light, folds flat, and has a window to see the fire.

I sleep in a hammock, so I can't recommend pads, but pick one with a high R value. Often people double up a closed cell foam with an insulated inflatable. You can also layer sleeping bags or quilts to save money. Enlightened Equipment has a nice article about this with an estimate of layered temp ratings. Keep in mind that a lot of manufacturers list limit ratings not comfort temp ratings.

Portages are easier on snowshoes, but you'll travel quicker and easier on flat lakes using skis. I pick which I use depending on the route (and sometimes bring both).

Definitely bring a pulk sled if you are going far. It's a lot easier to drag the weight than carry it. You can get the Paris Expedition sled online or at REI in the winter and make your own. Google diy pulk and you will find lots of examples of how to make poles. I wouldn't recommend just using a kids sled since they tend to be narrow and tippy, although it might be okay to try it out if you aren't sure you are ready to fully commit to winter camping.

For augers, just get a Nils auger. They are pricey, but cut like butter!

Have fun and remember the days are shorter and the margin for error is smaller than summer camping!

I've camped with nights -20° using an Exped DLX9, my 30 degree down bag inside an older winter bag - from LLBean grossly mislabeled -30° - in a Timberline tent and stay quite comfortable. I change into flannel pajamas and down booties to sleep, and make sure they are hung out to dry during day. Moisture is the enemy and sleeping in anything you wear all day is a looser.

Sleep warm and cozy at night and its easy to stay active and warm in the day.

OCDave: "

bobbernumber3: "I'd recommend a Roll-a-cot and an Exped down filled air mattress."

I'd avoid a cot for winter camping. Even with the down-filled mattress it would be far colder than the same mattress on the ground."

On the ground, I always end up with an arm off the mattress that gets cold and wakes me up. The cot keeps me on the mattress and provides added space below to store gear.

A cot is extra gear bulk and weight, for sure, if that is a factor.

Since you are planning on sticking in one spot for the whole winter, and not moving, then that opens you up for more options that are a lot heavier but cheaper.

For instance, these wall tents instead of a Snowtekker tent:

Wall tents

Also, since you won't be moving, you can get a heavy stove. Which is good because usually those heavier stove are thicker and retain their heat longer then Kni-co stoves. A really good heavy stove, but a whopping 55 lbs, is the Four Dog Stove: 4 Dog Stove Then again, you could also make your own stove out of a 55 gallon barrel. That's what a lot of elk hunters do. Those can be real cheap and hold a lot of firewood.

lionman: "When I started winter camping, I found the Lure of the North Personal gear list and the Group gear list useful. They list both top of the line and more economical options."

Thank you so much for all of these great tips, lion man!

bobbernumber3: "I'd recommend a Roll-a-cot and an Exped down filled air mattress."

I think I am sold on that cot. Being taller, I was having a bit of trouble finding a suitable cot & this one looks perfect :). I will look up that air mattress. I was thinking several foam pads (could leave a few behind if overnighting away from base camp) along with my inflatable pad though a down air mattress sounds uber comfy.

Minnesotian: "
Since you are planning on sticking in one spot for the whole winter, and not moving, then that opens you up for more options that are a lot heavier but cheaper. "

Really good point. I’ve been considering it & I think this year I’ll build a base camp & then next year (assuming a repeat) I will add lighter more packable tent/stove/etc. to have an overnight kit for taking overnight trips into the park.

That tent site is intense haha. They look like solid shelters. Any tips on which to consider?

JohnGalt: "
That tent site is intense haha. They look like solid shelters. Any tips on which to consider?"

Not really, it's all about how much space you need for comfort I think. I wouldn't take any of those tents on a sled into the BWCA, too heavy. But they are meant to be put up for a whole season, so can withstand a lot of weather. Biggest thing you gotta watch out for is, if the canvas never has a chance to dry out it could rot in the warmer months. If you're going to be living in a tent all winter, my inclination is that you'd want more space. A Snowtrekker tent can get pretty small feeling when there are 30mph winds blowing outside and you are stuck inside.

Or you can do what Dave and Amy Freeman did for their year in the BWCA. For the winter they took a Seek Outside 8 Person Tipi. Lightweight, and room enough for them two, and it allowed them to somewhat easily move every two weeks or so.

If I were doing what you are doing, at the very least I would want a shelter that I can stand up in. Crouching over, bending over, all that gets real old, real fast.

Minnesotian: "

JohnGalt: "
That tent site is intense haha. They look like solid shelters. Any tips on which to consider?"

Not really, it's all about how much space you need for comfort I think. I wouldn't take any of those tents on a sled into the BWCA, too heavy. But they are meant to be put up for a whole season, so can withstand a lot of weather. Biggest thing you gotta watch out for is, if the canvas never has a chance to dry out it could rot in the warmer months. If you're going to be living in a tent all winter, my inclination is that you'd want more space. A Snowtrekker tent can get pretty small feeling when there are 30mph winds blowing outside and you are stuck inside.


Or you can do what Dave and Amy Freeman did for their year in the BWCA. For the winter they took a Seek Outside 8 Person Tipi. Lightweight, and room enough for them two, and it allowed them to somewhat easily move every two weeks or so.


If I were doing what you are doing, at the very least I would want a shelter that I can stand up in. Crouching over, bending over, all that gets real old, real fast. "

Thank you for this advisement. I think the heavier shelter you linked to is the wiser move for a base camp shelter & a snowtrekker/other more travel friendly shelter + stove can be a future investment.

I have a better grasp on the site now & it looks like they have two models, Wilderness & outfitter. One place on the site recommended the Wilderness for long-term living quarters, so I’ll probably go with that one. Torn between 10x12 & 12x14, 40% more space for ~$600 or so more dinero fully equipped. I think I may get the cook shack extension to provide me with some covered outdoor space, like a mud room/garage. Thinking cook shack over patio as cook shack door can be closed to keep out wind & put less wear on tent. These tents ain’t cheap, though I figure it will serve future duty as temporary living quarters if/when I build my cabin.

Another thing to consider is the floor of whatever tent you get. Most of them are open floor and for going into the BWCA most people get some sort of temporary tarp.

But for what you are thinking you will need a good foundation to last ya all winter. If you have the time to build a wooden deck to set the tent up on that is ideal.

However, a cheaper method I have come across is a bunch of pallets with some plywood sheeting over them all. Quick and cheap, but might need some constant fiddling to get it flat.

Minnesotian: "
Another thing to consider is the floor of whatever tent you get. Most of them are open floor and for going into the BWCA most people get some sort of temporary tarp.

But for what you are thinking you will need a good foundation to last ya all winter. If you have the time to build a wooden deck to set the tent up on that is ideal.

However, a cheaper method I have come across is a bunch of pallets with some plywood sheeting over them all. Quick and cheap, but might need some constant fiddling to get it flat. "

Great advice, thank you.
I wish I could build out a deck, as that does seem to be how most folks set these up for long-term living, though I don’t think my outfitter would appreciate my construction project haha. I may check out that pallet idea though!

For what it's worth, those wool pants are what I use each winter. The bibs would drive me crazy because i would have to take off my parka/top outter layer to drop my pants.

I use an Exped Dura 8, but am moving often. The megamat would be more comfortable over a long period of time. Sleep is important-the nights are long.

If you like making things, Lure of the North's mukluks and tutorials are very good. I bring two pairs of mukluks, the ones I made and Stegers. I use the diy ones more often. I pair them with Tingley overshoes.

Empire Wool and Canvas makes solid winter clothing out of Duluth.

The best advice I can give is for you to head down to Sturgeon Lake in October and spend the weekend at the Winter Camping Symposium There are so many seasoned winter campers that would love to talk to you about everything you would need. You would also get to see a lot of different styles of tents and stoves. You can also find lots of used gear which can really help save cash.

I’ve spent nearly 30 years winter camping here in AK. Mostly on dog mushing and snowmachine trips, from the Brooks Range to the Iditarod trail. I’ve had great experiences and times I wasn’t sure I’d keep all my toes. Here are a few thoughts for you to consider.

They’re not cheap but Arctic Oven Tents are the gold standard up here. The key to long term winter camping is staying warm and dry while living in frozen water. The AO is a double walled tent. The inside layer lets all the water vapor through and it eventually condenses on the outer layer. Give the fly a shake and all the frost falls to the ground outside your living space. Not once have I woke up with frost inside this tent. I suggest putting a white plastic tarp down on the floor. The white color reflects light well and brightens things up. It also catches all the spills and messes of daily life. You can sweep it or just pull the whole tarp out and shake the mess off it. My AO is 20 years old, been used about a million times and it still looks like new, and I could sell it used for what I paid for it.

Use a cot. I’ve slept on the floor a lot but once I tried a cot never considered going back. Again it’s about staying dry. The best pad I’ve ever used is a 3” thick memory foam pad. Yep it’s bulky but you will never wake up cold or have sore shoulders. I’m a hammocker in summer and have toyed with idea of attaching an underquilt under my cot. Using a cot also leaves lots of good storage space under it.

As for stoves, the most important thing is controlling the draft. You want your stove to draft well so your fire lights easily and doesn’t back draft when you open the door to add more wood but you must be able to clamp down on the air supply or you will cook yourself right out of the tent. Be careful about choosing one that is really lightweight, it may warp easily and the door won’t seal well. If your stove pipe comes with a spark arrestor, throw it away. In cold temps it will soot itself shut in short order.

Not sure if this is useful to you and others but it is what has worked well for me and the style I like to travel in remote places.

I’m barely scratching the surface here on winter camping but I’m a painfully slow typer so feel free to contact me via my email and we can swap numbers if you have questions or want to discuss other gear options.

Good luck with whatever you choose, it’ll be a heck of an experience.

Soledad: "For what it's worth, those wool pants are what I use each winter. The bibs would drive me crazy because i would have to take off my parka/top outter layer to drop my pants.

I use an Exped Dura 8, but am moving often. The megamat would be more comfortable over a long period of time. Sleep is important-the nights are long.

If you like making things, Lure of the North's mukluks and tutorials are very good. I bring two pairs of mukluks, the ones I made and Stegers. I use the diy ones more often. I pair them with Tingley overshoes.

Empire Wool and Canvas makes solid winter clothing out of Duluth.

The best advice I can give is for you to head down to Sturgeon Lake in October and spend the weekend at the Winter Camping Symposium There are so many seasoned winter campers that would love to talk to you about everything you would need. You would also get to see a lot of different styles of tents and stoves. You can also find lots of used gear which can really help save cash."

Thank you for these tips! I think I’ll follow your lead & get the DIY mukluks, it would be a fun activity when I want to hide inside on a cold day. Your advice re pants vs bibs will be headed. I have a pair of the oil cloth, or similar, bibs from Filson & will use those as my outer layer (was wanting something to protect the wool pants from getting torn up by brush & didn’t think of my existing bibs serving the function until your comment).

Re the symposium, I think I’ll try to attend that event. So long as I don’t hit any travel snags, it should be worthwhile & informative. Timing of it should mesh well with my transition from BWCA camp to CCO campground. I appreciate you sharing the details :).

907Tundra: "I’ve spent nearly 30 years winter camping here in AK.”

That is an awesome life to live, 907Tundra :).

I greatly appreciate your advice & I think an AO tent may be my future winter home. Now, to decide on the size & stove. I’ll send you an email & we can hop on a call ~1st week of September, if you are available. Cheers!

OCDave:


I'd avoid a cot for winter camping. Even with the down-filled mattress it would be far colder than the same mattress on the ground."

This is interesting to me. My experience has been the opposite.

Tryin: "

OCDave: I'd avoid a cot for winter camping. Even with the down-filled mattress it would be far colder than the same mattress on the ground."

This is interesting to me. My experience has been the opposite. "

I once tested a 35F sleeping bag inside a 20F bag (both down) on an Exped Synmat 7 mattress on a Camptime Roll-a-Cot. The temperature was -5F. I took a bottle of hot water to bed. I cut the experiment short after a few hours because I was way too hot in the sleeping bags---had to unzip the exterior bag---but my nose was frozen. For camping all winter I would definitely want a cot. It's so much more comfortable for getting in and out of bed and sitting, and you can store things under it as mentioned. I've slept on a cot at 20 to 30 degrees many times, never noticed that it was colder than on the ground. The key is an accurately rated mattress. I trust Exped's ratings.

OP, be aware of one thing when you choose your cot and mattress: the mattress should fit BETWEEN the side poles of the cot, not ride on top of them. I had difficulty with the Megamat on top of the narrower Roll-a-Cot---the side poles pushed the mattress up along the edges. The Roll-a-Cot is fine---I don't think you need to spend a ton of money on a Helinox cot for your purposes---but it does sag a bit in the middle (I mean across the width), so subtract the width of the poles (maybe 3" to 4") from the cot width and make sure it's wide enough for the Megamat.

The reason the Roll-a-Cot sags is that the tension is provided only by the wingnuts on the screws that you insert in the legs. The Roll-a-Cot fabric will stretch over time if you sleep on it every night for months. I once slept on it for over a year during home renovations. I don't think that's a reason to not buy the Roll-a-Cot. I think it's a great cot for the money. The sag is not extreme, it's just more noticeable than on the Helinox cot, whose top surface is really drum tight. You can adjust the wingnuts on the Roll-a-Cot to get a tighter top, but make sure there's enough of the screw left in the hole to not compromise the strength of the screw. That probably doesn't make sense but if you look at the screw you'll see what I mean.

Also bring a couple of straps to attach the mattress to the cot; the mattress tends to slide around.

Getting back to sleeping bags, if weight is not an issue, I like the idea of two sleeping bags so you can adjust to a range of temperatures and not be too hot in a -20 bag if the temperature is only +20. In testing 35 + 20 bags, I estimated based on the result that I would have been OK down to about -15 since I was too hot at -5. That makes sense: 35 - 20 = -15. I put a semi-rectangular 35 inside a rectangular 20 to make sure the inner bag would fit.

For some reason I am unable to edit my OP, maybe too much time has elapsed?

1) I’ve decided to instead go with the Arctic Oven 12 with vestibule for my tent. I am torn between the Wilderness 5 & Alaskan stoves. The Wilderness 5 is heavier (more metal to radiate heat) than the Alaskan & has a larger fire box, which I assume will provide a longer burn time. Does anyone happen to have any comments to steer the decision?

2) Any recommendations for gloves? (in addition to choppers, I have those selected, & I own a pair of heavy leathers with removable wool liner)

Skis & accessories? (I figure since I’m on Moose Lake, they would be useful to travel the lake more quickly.)

Ski goggles?
Hat/balaclava?
Cooler?
Snow shovel?

3) Any other gear items/products to consider?

4) I am considering getting the Enlightened Equipment Itasca 0* down quilt & pairing this with my 30* EE Enigma if lower temp rating is needed. Any reason to not do this?
Also, I was considering an air mattress or memory foam mattress instead of a cot. Sleeping on a cot in the army was pretty uncomfortable for me & I’m thinking I’d sleep better on the ground. Should this not be done? If it is not I’ll advised, any recommendations in this department?

Thanks!

JohnGalt: "I was considering an air mattress or memory foam mattress instead of a cot. Sleeping on a cot in the army was pretty uncomfortable for me & I’m thinking I’d sleep better on the ground.

Cots and mattresses today are more comfortable than they used to be. A Camptime Roll-a-Cot paired with a highly insulated Exped mattress feels luxurious and offers several advantages over sleeping on the ground.

LilyPond: "

JohnGalt: "I was considering an air mattress or memory foam mattress instead of a cot. Sleeping on a cot in the army was pretty uncomfortable for me & I’m thinking I’d sleep better on the ground.

Cots and mattresses today are more comfortable than they used to be. A Camptime Roll-a-Cot paired with a highly insulated Exped mattress feels luxurious and offers several advantages over sleeping on the ground."

Roger that. I guess it would be better to get it & adjust fire if it isn’t comfortable. Thank you for the reassurance, was just having flashbacks of some of the worst sleep of my life haha.

Edit:
After mulling it over today, I’m leaning towards going with a megamat duo LW+ & building a cheap wooden frame to put under it. The roll-a-cot is ~$160, for less than that I can get a sheet of plywood & a 4x4 post + a couple of 2x4s & a box of screws. Come spring, I can burn it or see if outfitter has a dark hole I can hide it in until next winter.

OCDave: "

bobbernumber3: "I'd recommend a Roll-a-cot and an Exped down filled air mattress."

I'd avoid a cot for winter camping. Even with the down-filled mattress it would be far colder than the same mattress on the ground."

I usually pack an additional wool blanket that I then put my Exped on, plus it gives me a nice ground cover for my other items.

OCDave: "

bobbernumber3: "I'd recommend a Roll-a-cot and an Exped down filled air mattress."

I'd avoid a cot for winter camping. Even with the down-filled mattress it would be far colder than the same mattress on the ground."

I think cots will have a warmth advantage in a hot tent? Elevation will mean warmer temps, like in a sauna?

JohnGalt: "After mulling it over today, I’m leaning towards going with a megamat duo LW+ & building a cheap wooden frame to put under it. The roll-a-cot is ~$160, for less than that I can get a sheet of plywood & a 4x4 post + a couple of 2x4s & a box of screws. Come spring, I can burn it or see if outfitter has a dark hole I can hide it in until next winter."

That sounds like a great idea to me. Much sturdier than a cot.