Good morning all,

I had always rented a Grumman Aluminum canoe for our trips until 2022 when my son and I rented a MN II for more gear space, (we were doing an exploratory trip with different gear, hammocks and tent, chairs, etc. for future trips with Grandkids). The MN II was nice and worked well but I found my knees to be way higher than the seat and I found it really caused some cramps in my thighs. Never had an issue in the Aluminum. Are the seats in an Aluminum THAT much higher? I last used one in 2020 so I am not THAT much older!!! LOL.

I try to look at specs for different canoes and do not seem to be able to find anything on the seat height or how much of the sidewalls sit above waterline, (but maybe I am not looking well enough?). I know I can sit on a cushion, which will help, but that also moves my center of gravity higher. It was recommended that we rent a Northwind B-19 and I love the weight capacity but pictures show it sits low in the water and I see canoeists knees higher than the seats.

This year we are taking the Grandson, (age 7) and will not be doing mega portages, mostly fishing, exploring, camping, etc. to introduce him slowly to the B-Dub.

Thanks in advance!!!

Low slung bucket seats are a hallmark of Wenonah canoes, and your knees will be at or above your waist depending on your sitting style and whether you're bow or stern. These types of seats are slung noticeably lower than bench seats.

The MN II is notorious for small footspace for the bow paddler which can exacerbate the problem.

Thanks, that is good information.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a canoe to rent given this info?

MN II is one of the most uncomfortable canoes out there for bow paddlers (unless you're tiny). I even feel cramped in the stern. Wenonah in general...aren't a fit for me. Great canoes, and alot of people love them. I've never been comfortable in them. Rent a Northstar Northwind or Northstar Polaris (my favorite tandem) next time and you'll be in love with the boat. Technically should be a little slower than the MN II, but in mixed canoe groups, they always keep up. I think the the more comfortable seats and better mix of primary and secondary stability allow for easier power transfer when paddling.

We rented a Northwind 18 last year for 3 people and I really liked it. But I wouldn't say the seats are higher, seemed pretty typical compared to other Kevlar canoes I've been in. Northwind seats dip down so they may actually be lower than some. I didn't notice one way or the other but looking back at my pictures the Northwind seats do seem to be a little lower than my Nighthawk Leo seats. But hard to tell.

At 6'3" every canoe seat is too low as far as I'm concerned. So as long as I have good legroom I usually don't notice.

I'd rent the Northwind over the MNII regardless. Roomier, more seaworthy, more maneuverable while still being pretty fast. Well worth the tradeoff in tracking and pure speed, IMO.

Mo63021: "Good morning all,

I had always rented a Grumman Aluminum canoe for our trips until 2022 when my son and I rented a MN II for more gear space, (we were doing an exploratory trip with different gear, hammocks and tent, chairs, etc. for future trips with Grandkids). The MN II was nice and worked well but I found my knees to be way higher than the seat and I found it really caused some cramps in my thighs. Never had an issue in the Aluminum. Are the seats in an Aluminum THAT much higher? I last used one in 2020 so I am not THAT much older!!! LOL.

I try to look at specs for different canoes and do not seem to be able to find anything on the seat height or how much of the sidewalls sit above waterline, (but maybe I am not looking well enough?). I know I can sit on a cushion, which will help, but that also moves my center of gravity higher. It was recommended that we rent a Northwind B-19 and I love the weight capacity but pictures show it sits low in the water and I see canoeists knees higher than the seats.

This year we are taking the Grandson, (age 7) and will not be doing mega portages, mostly fishing, exploring, camping, etc. to introduce him slowly to the B-Dub.

Thanks in advance!!!

"

Hi Mo,

The Wenonah mounts the seats lower in almost all their canoes for increased stability. The exception is the Basswood series, which is quite wide and has the seats mounted about where they are in an aluminum canoe.

The key to comfort in a canoe with low seats is to use the footbrace and front end tank as a footrest. With your feet on the footrest or end tank you can sit up comfortably. Without a footrest the lower seat position may be less comfortable. Unfortunately, some outfitters prefer to order Wenonah canoes without sliding seats or footbraces. We believe these components are an essential part of the outfitting of our canoes and strongly encourage their use.

The Minnesota II has a narrow bow. Most bow paddlers will have to alternate feet on the end tank with the other foot on the floor closer to the seat. For this and other reasons, many of us here at Wenonah prefer the Champlain to the Minnesota II as a wilderness tripper. It's nearly as quick, more stable, more seaworthy and holds more gear. Personally, it is my go-to tandem.

The following article goes into detail about the rationale behind how we outfit the seating in our canoes. Our experience in long distance paddling informs our preference for bucket seats, sliding seats and footbraces along with ultralight elbow paddles.

https://kitchi-gami.com/2021/11/02/bent-shafts-and-bucket-seats/

If your planning on attending the Canoecopia show in Madison next month, please stop by the Wenonah booth. We're happy to show you the best seating adjustment for comfort in our canoes.

Brian from Wenonah

Speckled: "MN II is one of the most uncomfortable canoes out there for bow paddlers (unless you're tiny). I even feel cramped in the stern. Wenonah in general...aren't a fit for me. Great canoes, and alot of people love them. I've never been comfortable in them. Rent a Northstar Northwind or Northstar Polaris (my favorite tandem) next time and you'll be in love with the boat. Technically should be a little slower than the MN II, but in mixed canoe groups, they always keep up. I think the the more comfortable seats and better mix of primary and secondary stability allow for easier power transfer when paddling."

Thanks Mike, all good info. We will not be worrying about speed, more middle seat for Grandson and load and comfort. We will be base camping with side trips from camp, and fishing.

BrianDay: "

Mo63021: "Good morning all,


I had always rented a Grumman Aluminum canoe for our trips until 2022 when my son and I rented a MN II for more gear space, (we were doing an exploratory trip with different gear, hammocks and tent, chairs, etc. for future trips with Grandkids). The MN II was nice and worked well but I found my knees to be way higher than the seat and I found it really caused some cramps in my thighs. Never had an issue in the Aluminum. Are the seats in an Aluminum THAT much higher? I last used one in 2020 so I am not THAT much older!!! LOL.


I try to look at specs for different canoes and do not seem to be able to find anything on the seat height or how much of the sidewalls sit above waterline, (but maybe I am not looking well enough?). I know I can sit on a cushion, which will help, but that also moves my center of gravity higher. It was recommended that we rent a Northwind B-19 and I love the weight capacity but pictures show it sits low in the water and I see canoeists knees higher than the seats.


This year we are taking the Grandson, (age 7) and will not be doing mega portages, mostly fishing, exploring, camping, etc. to introduce him slowly to the B-Dub.


Thanks in advance!!!


"

Hi Mo,


The Wenonah mounts the seats lower in almost all their canoes for increased stability. The exception is the Basswood series, which is quite wide and has the seats mounted about where they are in an aluminum canoe.


The key to comfort in a canoe with low seats is to use the footbrace and front end tank as a footrest. With your feet on the footrest or end tank you can sit up comfortably. Without a footrest the lower seat position may be less comfortable. Unfortunately, some outfitters prefer to order Wenonah canoes without sliding seats or footbraces. We believe these components are an essential part of the outfitting of our canoes and strongly encourage their use.


The Minnesota II has a narrow bow. Most bow paddlers will have to alternate feet on the end tank with the other foot on the floor closer to the seat. For this and other reasons, many of us here at Wenonah prefer the Champlain to the Minnesota II as a wilderness tripper. It's nearly as quick, more stable, more seaworthy and holds more gear. Personally, it is my go-to tandem.


The following article goes into detail about the rationale behind how we outfit the seating in our canoes. Our experience in long distance paddling informs our preference for bucket seats, sliding seats and footbraces along with ultralight elbow paddles.


https://kitchi-gami.com/2021/11/02/bent-shafts-and-bucket-seats/


If your planning on attending the Canoecopia show in Madison next month, please stop by the Wenonah booth. We're happy to show you the best seating adjustment for comfort in our canoes.


Brian from Wenonah"

Thanks Brian, good info to have from a builders side. Will NOT be attending the Canoecopia this year but hopefully another time.

Doug

I even added a middle seat to our Champlain, my son and two of his friends use it, they are all 150-200lbs. They are doing a granite river trip with it this year.

I love my Wenonah Champlain. Wider, deeper, more comfortable than the MN II. Not as sleek and as fast, but very stable with plenty of room for gear.

I don't understand why your knees would be above your seat. Couldn't you just extend you feet further out? If I paddle with my knees up high, my butt would be hurting in no time. For me, I extend my legs out as far as I can but leave just a little bit of bend left in my knees. But almost as important, I'll want something to brace against with my feet. Either a built in brace or up against the bow (like BrianDay stated). If the boat doesn't have braces, I'll try to put a pack in a location that allows me to push against it.

Maybe your aluminum boat had a raised rib in a location that allowed you to brace against it and you didn't realize that that is what you were doing?

And I agree on the Champlain as a better boat for your future trip than the MN2. I like MN2's for my use but a Champlain is better for what your describing. Just make sure whoever you rent from has an adjustable sliding seat in the bow and adjustable foot braces in the stern.

BeaV: "I don't understand why your knees would be above your seat. Couldn't you just extend you feet further out? If I paddle with my knees up high, my butt would be hurting in no time. For me, I extend my legs out as far as I can but leave just a little bit of bend left in my knees. But almost as important, I'll want something to brace against with my feet. Either a built in brace or up against the bow (like BrianDay stated). If the boat doesn't have braces, I'll try to put a pack in a location that allows me to push against it.


Maybe your aluminum boat had a raised rib in a location that allowed you to brace against it and you didn't realize that that is what you were doing?


And I agree on the Champlain as a better boat for your future trip than the MN2. I like MN2's for my use but a Champlain is better for what your describing. Just make sure whoever you rent from has an adjustable sliding seat in the bow and adjustable foot braces in the stern."

Thanks for your thoughts. I guess I do paddle with my legs in various positions, mostly crossed but also stretched in front and also bent to under the seat which was possible in the Aluminum. When I was in the front of the MN II there did not seem to be as much room to stretch out and no way for me to get my feet back under the seat. It was a great canoe, but I did not fit it. Having always been in an Aluminum and always being younger, (ha-ha) and then jumping into the MNII was just a difference. I was also PROBABLY not in the best shape, and therefore most of this is on me, not the canoe, so I will own that part.

I will look into the Champlain, sounds like a good fit.

Additional information, I am 66, I have been going since 1972 but we do not get to the B-Dub every year, (even though we would if we could) and therefore not as seasoned as we would like. Going roughly every other third year makes conditioning more on us before getting there and as I get older even more so. The trip this year is set for September and I have been on my routine regiment for 4 weeks, lost 12 pounds already and slowly getting my body to stretch the way I would like. Walking farther each day helps, and I have even built a bench that is apx. 9 inches high to imitate a canoe seat. I use light weights instead of a paddle to strengthen my arms and back as simulating paddling.

Thanks to everyone who gave me input. I LOVE this site as I know I always have the best place to go for answers!