I bought a Northstar Northwind 16 (tandem/solo) for my 2019 Quetico trip, but I sold it during the COVID fiasco. The 16 was a decent tandem and a decent solo, but it didn't do either really well, in my opinion. I really wanted a solo boat, but I wanted to make sure my normal tripping partner could go along. In the end, I made compromises, and I wasn't happy with my choice.

On my next trip to Quetico, I rented a three-person Wenonah, Seneca (I think), for our three-person outing. Outside of those canoe outings, I've done numerous recreational river trips with my roto-mold kayak and a few overnights on rivers with that same kayak. Now I'm looking for my next boat, a solo craft.

I've been enthralled with the Swift lineup but not enthralled with the price. Especially if I can make do VERY NICELY with something else. My original purpose with a new boat was for Quetico/BWCA-type trips. Then I started to think about how much fun doing rivers was, when I did them. Queue a few weeks of investigation looking for interesting river trips in a one-state circle in and around Ohio. There are many. So now, instead of looking for a flat water boat, I'm diving into ones that can do both. This adds a wrinkle. As I'm not the most experienced with canoes, I've performed a bunch of research. I think I have some valid thoughts, and I want to bring those thoughts to this fine group for input, critique, and alternative suggestions.

I will be in various rivers. Dragging will occur, I will go over submerged logs, and I will make mistakes in mid-class II rapids and below. The lakes I will be in will be the aforementioned Quetico/BWCA types. I have determined that I will be on 60% rivers, 40% lakes. Maybe 70/30 instead. I feel this split is necessary to know, as it is clear (is it?) to me that the bottom shape of the canoe is made for one or the other, and sometimes a bit of both.

I'm 6'2", 260 lbs, but should get to 240 lbs where my bodyfat is better for me and my knees. I'm 56 years old. I take two packs with me, an extra paddle, and a fishing pole. My second pack carries an Ursack (food), fishing tackle, and maybe something else if I want to distribute the load. I don't pack heavy, but neither is it light. I enjoy a double-portage, if one is needed. I use both a single-blade and a double-blade when paddling. Being first a kayaker, I want to still be able to use my double-blade if I choose, but I'm going to force myself to use a single-blade as much as I can to improve my use of it.

Using Northstar as a starting point, the choices are the Northwind Solo and the Phoenix. I've heard Bear, Northstar's General Manager, say that the Solo is for "lakes, and rivers", and the Phoenix is "rivers, and lakes". That should do it right there, but I have been watching reviews of both boats and the Phoenix seems to handle lakes well, according to those filming. For seat style, I'm up for a pack boat-style throne, but I'll probably go with a traditional style, lowered a bit.

So ... with what I've given for information, which may or may not be sufficient, do you have opinions on the Solo and Phoenix? How about other boats? Would you suggest alternatives, given my height, weight, and types of trips? I will investigate each and every one of the suggestions.
I will be going to Canoecopia this coming March (2025) and will get to lay hands on most of what is suggested, probably. Or probably not, what the heck do I know?

Based on you dragging boat over rocks in streams, I suggest looking at Esquif Echo with pack seat. It's heavy ish at 45 pounds but tough, stable, and neither fast nor slow. At 72, 6-10 and 225 pounds, it's my next canoe as I paddle more in Adirondack streams versus bwca lakes.

billconner: "Based on you dragging boat over rocks in streams, I suggest looking at Esquif Echo with pack seat. It's heavy ish at 45 pounds but tough, stable, and neither fast nor slow. At 72, 6-10 and 225 pounds, it's my next canoe as I paddle more in Adirondack streams versus bwca lakes."

I'll look at that. With my starting point canoes I mentioned above, they are 41 lbs based on the laminates I chose because of the rocks, moderate rapids, etc. 45 lbs is something I can handle. I'll go dive into them. I appreciate the suggestion.

I purchased a Northstar Phoenix in iXP this fall and had it on the water a couple times. It felt real stable and handled good.
I also have a Wenonah wilderness in both royalex and Kevlar ultralight. The Royalex Wilderness is 51# and not as fast or responsive. The Royalex Wilderness will be sold next spring.
Would have liked to paddle the Phoenix more but do not paddle during hunting season and the water turning hard so that was it.
The ultralight Wilderness will be for BWCA fishing trips and the Phoenix for a local class 2 river and some BWCA trips.
Carl

RedLakePaddler: "I purchased a Northstar Phoenix in iXP this fall and had it on the water a couple times. It felt real stable and handled good.
I also have a Wenonah wilderness in both royalex and Kevlar ultralight. The Royalex Wilderness is 51# and not as fast or responsive. The Royalex Wilderness will be sold next spring.
Would have liked to paddle the Phoenix more but do not paddle during hunting season and the water turning hard so that was it.
The ultralight Wilderness will be for BWCA fishing trips and the Phoenix for a local class 2 river and some BWCA trips.
Carl"

Thanks for your input. I was confused for a moment on the Wilderness talk but then I slowed down and you have the canoe in two different layups. Ah-ha!

I'm about your height and just a little lighter and purchased an IXP Phoenix last winter. I live in a place where I spend a good amount of time on the river in rapids up to class 2. I have also taken the phoenix on a couple of boundary waters trips now and have a good amount of time in it on lake superior as well.

I think as long as you're not looking to run races or be able to keep up with a tandem tripping canoe the Phoenix does a perfectly adequate job on lakes like the bwca has to offer. Solo canoe trips aren't about going fast IMO everyday life has us going fast enough and the canoe is an excuse to slow things down a bit :).

I had mine made with whitewater eyelets and added air bags which I recommend for whitewater. Those eyelets are handy attachment points for other things as well. Found a big bonus to those air bags filling up the empty space in the ends is that paddling flat water they seem to help shed wind which is good for the phoenix as it's a bit deeper and has more rocker so it tends to catch wind. I am planning to order a spray deck as well which I've heard helps even more with the wind and I also want it for paddling superior and whitewater.

If you get the regular seats in the phoenix I doubt you'll need to drop them any lower. I kneel more than I sit so I actually opted for the kneeling drops (higher up) and for me it's stable enough to sit in and fish even with the raised seat.

Only gripe about the phoenix is that I wish it were just an inch or so deeper in the center. I feel like I take more water in around the center than I do at the ends when playing in whitewater. The Nova Craft Fox that it replaced was actually deeper in the center and it was built as a tripping canoe

Excellent! I was also thinking that a full deck can keep some heat in as well. Thank you for your input, it seems to match what I want to do.

keth0601: "I'm about your height and just a little lighter and purchased an IXP Phoenix last winter. I live in a place where I spend a good amount of time on the river in rapids up to class 2. I have also taken the phoenix on a couple of boundary waters trips now and have a good amount of time in it on lake superior as well.

.....

Only gripe about the phoenix is that I wish it were just an inch or so deeper in the center. I feel like I take more water in around the center than I do at the ends when playing in whitewater. The Nova Craft Fox that it replaced was actually deeper in the center and it was built as a tripping canoe"

A lot of others here have more expertise and experience in helping with these questions than me, but I thought I would mention that Bear/NorthStar have done several YouTube videos where he walks through each boat model’s pro’s and con’s and layup options in detail. I think these videos are very well done. Should be easy to find on YouTube.

Jaywalker: "A lot of others here have more expertise and experience in helping with these questions than me, but I thought I would mention that Bear/NorthStar have done several YouTube videos where he walks through each boat model’s pro’s and con’s and layup options in detail. I think these videos are very well done. Should be easy to find on YouTube. "

I have watched those videos, and they were very informative. I'm not just interested in those boats, though, but they are my starting point. What I thought I'd do is get people's personal experience with those boats, and others that should be brought into the mix.

Both of those Northstars are solid boats, although the Solo is too shallow for significant moving water and whitewater in my opinion. Other excellent canoes to consider that offer much more depth for whitewater and kneeling, and plenty of rocker in fully symmetrical designs that also offer excellent volume for solo tripping (very easy to paddle heeled or with a kayak/tandem blade paddle): Nova Craft Pal, Esquif Prospecteur 15, Nova Craft Prospector 14, Nova Craft Supernova, or Northstar Pearl. All but the NC Prospector 14 and Supernova can also be used as smaller tandems for day trips or short trips. I have paddled all of these (especially tons of time in the NC Pal as a primary boat) and like them all. I have not paddled the Nova Craft Prospector 15 or the Clipper Caribou S but both look like very capable higher volume solo options (the NC Prospector having a great following as a serious tripping river boat).

I can't comment on those lay-ups but to say this: (1) I bought a versatile solo canoe (Bell Wildfire) to do both rivers and lakes. What you need to know is that a versatile canoe will likely get a C+ grade at everything and be OK with that. I can't keep up with tandems on flat water lakes, and I have to be careful in whitewater. I love my canoe, and if a person can only afford one boat, we just need to know that that boat likely won't get an "A" in the two different conditions (lake v fast water river); (2) pay attention to the seat; in my canoe my legs tuck under the seat so I am always in a semi-kneeling position. This was no big deal for many years. Now that I'm older and my knees are trashed, getting in, and especially out, is not fun, and I'm in pain most of the time I'm paddling.

RoundRiver: "Both of those Northstars are solid boats, although the Solo is too shallow for significant moving water and whitewater in my opinion. Other excellent canoes to consider that offer much more depth for whitewater and kneeling, and plenty of rocker in fully symmetrical designs that also offer excellent volume for solo tripping (very easy to paddle heeled or with a kayak/tandem blade paddle): Nova Craft Pal, Esquif Prospecteur 15, Nova Craft Prospector 14, Nova Craft Supernova, or Northstar Pearl. All but the NC Prospector 14 and Supernova can also be used as smaller tandems for day trips or short trips. I have paddled all of these (especially tons of time in the NC Pal as a primary boat) and like them all. I have not paddled the Nova Craft Prospector 15 or the Clipper Caribou S but both look like very capable higher volume solo options (the NC Prospector having a great following as a serious tripping river boat)."

Thanks for that. I've looked at some that you have listed and are on my list to put my hands on at Canoecopia to help narrow down testing on the water, and the others I'll look at right now.

chessie: "I can't comment on those lay-ups but to say this: (1) I bought a versatile solo canoe (Bell Wildfire) to do both rivers and lakes. What you need to know is that a versatile canoe will likely get a C+ grade at everything and be OK with that. I can't keep up with tandems on flat water lakes, and I have to be careful in whitewater. I love my canoe, and if a person can only afford one boat, we just need to know that that boat likely won't get an "A" in the two different conditions (lake v fast water river); (2) pay attention to the seat; in my canoe my legs tuck under the seat so I am always in a semi-kneeling position. This was no big deal for many years. Now that I'm older and my knees are trashed, getting in, and especially out, is not fun, and I'm in pain most of the time I'm paddling. "

My first canoe was a solo/tandem, and you are right; it was great at neither. I am looking for one that is the "least terrible" at both flat and river, knowing that it won't be awesome at either. The alternative is to get two boats, or just one that is good at what I will do most, and then rent from an outfitter for the other. I've considered doing just that, and still argue with myself on which way to go.

I have the tuff-weave Wilderness…I am unable to compare it to the other boats mentioned. However, I am very happy with the performance. It handles moving water quite well. I haven’t been in any sticky river situations but non-technical 1+ stuff I don’t blink. It’s not super fast in the lake but a good balance of mobility, fish-ability and payload capacity.

iCallitMaize: "I have the tuff-weave Wilderness…I am unable to compare it to the other boats mentioned. However, I am very happy with the performance. It handles moving water quite well. I haven’t been in any sticky river situations but non-technical 1+ stuff I don’t blink. It’s not super fast in the lake but a good balance of mobility, fish-ability and payload capacity. "

That's also on my list, as others have mentioned it. The top is squeezed in quite a bit by looking at it. That's great for paddling, especially double-paddling, but how is it for getting things like a food barrel or a portage pack into the canoe?

You mention wanting a lower seat, do you use a double bladed paddle? Do you sit? sit and switch? kneel and heel? As others have hinted at, I believe you would be happiest with one beat-around, royalex river boat with some rocker for your local trips and a second lightweight, straight-tracking flat water boat for trips to the Canadian shield.

WonderMonkey: "

iCallitMaize: "I have the tuff-weave Wilderness…I am unable to compare it to the other boats mentioned. However, I am very happy with the performance. It handles moving water quite well. I haven’t been in any sticky river situations but non-technical 1+ stuff I don’t blink. It’s not super fast in the lake but a good balance of mobility, fish-ability and payload capacity. "

That's also on my list, as others have mentioned it. The top is squeezed in quite a bit by looking at it. That's great for paddling, especially double-paddling, but how is it for getting things like a food barrel or a portage pack into the canoe?"

It is enough boat to handle a 60L barrel in the back. A 55lb German Shepherd in the front. Daypack between the legs. Barrel fits in snug. I take a single and double bladed paddle.

Z4K: "You mention wanting a lower seat, do you use a double bladed paddle? Do you sit? sit and switch? kneel and heel? As others have hinted at, I believe you would be happiest with one beat-around, royalex river boat with some rocker for your local trips and a second lightweight, straight-tracking flat water boat for trips to the Canadian shield. "

When in a canoe I use both a single and a double-bladed paddle, but I desire to improve my use of a single blade. I do want the ability to sit lower, but also higher. This may be through changing the hanging brackets between trips. Currently, I don't kneel, as I've not practiced that. It's another thing I want to practice under non-stressed situations.

I can't argue with what you are agreeing with. A used river boat and then the lighter one for flatwater and portage.

WonderMonkey: "

chessie: "I can't comment on those lay-ups but to say this: (1) I bought a versatile solo canoe (Bell Wildfire) to do both rivers and lakes. What you need to know is that a versatile canoe will likely get a C+ grade at everything and be OK with that. I can't keep up with tandems on flat water lakes, and I have to be careful in whitewater. I love my canoe, and if a person can only afford one boat, we just need to know that that boat likely won't get an "A" in the two different conditions (lake v fast water river); (2) pay attention to the seat; in my canoe my legs tuck under the seat so I am always in a semi-kneeling position. This was no big deal for many years. Now that I'm older and my knees are trashed, getting in, and especially out, is not fun, and I'm in pain most of the time I'm paddling. "

My first canoe was a solo/tandem, and you are right; it was great at neither. I am looking for one that is the "least terrible" at both flat and river, knowing that it won't be awesome at either. The alternative is to get two boats, or just one that is good at what I will do most, and then rent from an outfitter for the other. I've considered doing just that, and still argue with myself on which way to go."

If you're going to be approaching 70% rivers versus 30% flat water. Maybe buying a dedicated river boat and renting from an outfitter for flatwater trips is the right way to go. Or buy your ideal river boat and in a couple years pick up a used flat water boat...

Sunburn: "

WonderMonkey: "

chessie: "I can't comment on those lay-ups but to say this: (1) I bought a versatile solo canoe (Bell Wildfire) to do both rivers and lakes. What you need to know is that a versatile canoe will likely get a C+ grade at everything and be OK with that. I can't keep up with tandems on flat water lakes, and I have to be careful in whitewater. I love my canoe, and if a person can only afford one boat, we just need to know that that boat likely won't get an "A" in the two different conditions (lake v fast water river); (2) pay attention to the seat; in my canoe my legs tuck under the seat so I am always in a semi-kneeling position. This was no big deal for many years. Now that I'm older and my knees are trashed, getting in, and especially out, is not fun, and I'm in pain most of the time I'm paddling. "

My first canoe was a solo/tandem, and you are right; it was great at neither. I am looking for one that is the "least terrible" at both flat and river, knowing that it won't be awesome at either. The alternative is to get two boats, or just one that is good at what I will do most, and then rent from an outfitter for the other. I've considered doing just that, and still argue with myself on which way to go."

If you're going to be approaching 70% rivers versus 30% flat water. Maybe buying a dedicated river boat and renting from an outfitter for flatwater trips is the right way to go. Or buy your ideal river boat and in a couple years pick up a used flat water boat... "

Strong possibility in what you are suggesting. I'm laying out what I think my trips will be for the next few years to try and get a reality check on my mix.