What infrastructure would need to be in place for the Forest Service and Park Service to require both outboards and snowmobiles, even trucks on the mechanical portages to be electric powered? Would this be feasible by 2030?

I think the correct answer is zero. Even now, if one wants to use an electric outboard, one needs to be prepared with the number of batteries that might be needed. If an extended base camp were planned, then one should bring whatever one might need to recharge the batteries (and hope for sunny days, although "hope" is not a good plan).

Hard to see it happening from a political, operational, or financial standpoint. Although the thought of a Cybertruck on the prairie portage did make me laugh.

Although I do have a question. I avoid the motorized lakes and have never been through Prairie Portage. Do they have electrical power run there? Without that seems like a non-starter.

Jakthund: "Hard to see it happening from a political, operational, or financial standpoint. Although the thought of a Cybertruck on the prairie portage did make me laugh.

Although I do have a question. I avoid the motorized lakes and have never been through Prairie Portage. Do they have electrical power run there? Without that seems like a non-starter."

Give it 20 years and motors and ability will change so fast.

Pinetree: "

Jakthund: "Hard to see it happening from a political, operational, or financial standpoint. Although the thought of a Cybertruck on the prairie portage did make me laugh.



Although I do have a question. I avoid the motorized lakes and have never been through Prairie Portage. Do they have electrical power run there? Without that seems like a non-starter."

Give it 20 years and motors aand ability will change so fast."

Very possibly, but the question was 2030

tmccann: "What infrastructure would need to be in place for the Forest Service and Park Service to require both outboards and snowmobiles, even trucks on the mechanical portages to be electric powered? Would this be feasible by 2030?"

NPS plays zero role in the BWCA.

There would be no infrastructure required to enact such a law. They could do it tomorrow if they had the support.

Charging infrastructure in remote areas isn’t currently feasible in my opinion. And I wouldn’t want it. What are you gonna do, create charging stations on islands on Sag and Basswood? Could be worse than gas motors.

We do a trip every year on the Canadian side of sag with solar electricity at our resort. We use our gas outboard to get from spot to spot, but otherwise we use the trolling motor alllll day long. It needs to be plugged in every night or we’d be SOL after 1.5 days of use. A guy could bring several Lithium Ion batteries with no charger and swap them out as the week went on. Would only cost several thousand dollars for the batteries :)

I think for infrastructure that would take an act in Congress to amend and allow it per the Wilderness Act of 1978. I would not want to advocate for that in the current political environment. It was lucky it passed the first time.

Not a political expert but I am under the impression bringing the original act up for modification, would open everything up for modification. You could have more Motorized lakes, logging and mining…could have less motorized lakes more protection. The risk vs. reward isn’t worth it.

As far as requiring electric motors? I am not sure how that part plays out or if the FS has the authority? I don’t think it’d be a slam dunk.

T

They'd need to plant some currant bushes... (sorry)

:)

I have an EPropulsion Spirit 1.0. It is a 3hp equivalent outboard.
I it is very impressive technology in my opinion.
I could probably run it for 12 hours on one battery at paddling pace.

This is on a square stern royalex canoe.

Running at that pace, on even a cloudy summer day, it would basically maintain its charge level with a 200w solar panel.

I do hope the companies that tow people in BWCA lakes will voluntarily switch to electric power.

In my experience, the experience is so much more enjoyable in the boat under electric power. You can hear the water, smell the scents, hear the birds. It seems to be that most Q/BWCA folks are seeking this type of experience. It is also nicer for those the boats pass.

I agree if there is a switch to e-motors it will be better.

Also remember it isn’t just outfitter tows that use motors. There are cabins residents, home owners, business’s, day use motors that all have access to many of the Motorized lakes per the Wilderness compromise of 1978. They just can’t exceed pre 1978 numbers of motor boat usage. Currently motor use is already well under pre 1978 use.

T

I think a big stumbling block to this kind of requirement will be charging them. Using extension cords out on a dock is probably a non-starter, and the batteries are typically pretty cumbersome to transport. And expensive. From what I can find a battery for that EPropulsion motor brp mentions runs about $1100. And outfitters are going to want considerably more power that that one, because power reduces time on the water and time is money.

Though I love the idea of camping on some entry lakes without the drone of outboards at dawn, I think that's probably a ways off yet.

Yeah, it would be nice, but is likely a pipe dream if one does the calculations. Are people going to portage in thousands of pounds of batteries? Or monster solar panels? And for the tow boats, anything much less than 25hp would make the tows from the south unprofitable, and the amount of batteries for that kind of hp and the hours of use would be staggering and cost prohibitive. They operate on tiny margins mostly due to a short season. The tows from the east where 300hp motors are used and the tows are around 50 miles would be ridiculous. It might be possible on lakes not requiring portaging and for personal use, but would likely require a charging station.

mgraber: "Yeah, it would be nice, but is likely a pipe dream if one does the calculations. Are people going to portage in thousands of pounds of batteries? Or monster solar panels? And for the tow boats, anything much less than 25hp would make the tows from the south unprofitable, and the amount of batteries for that kind of hp and the hours of use would be staggering and cost prohibitive. They operate on tiny margins mostly due to a short season. The tows from the east where 300hp motors are used and the tows are around 50 miles would be ridiculous. It might be possible on lakes not requiring portaging and for personal use, but would likely require a charging station."

Technically the tows from Crane are outside the FS jurisdiction. They are either in SNF or Canada. Neither the SNF nor Canadian side of Loon and Lac La Croix are part of the Wilderness Act of 1978. Legally you could operate any size vessel/motor right up to Bottle portage if you stay in the right waters. So no way that area will change anytime soon.

T

I remeber when the first 4 stroke outboards came out. they were huge and super heavy. Nobody wanted them. Honda came out with some excellent 4 stroke and soon mercury followed.
Have a friend who has one of those big bass boats and fishes tournaments, they never had enough gas. Now they all switched to lighter 4 stroke and their gas mileage is double at least.
I believe in 10 years batteries and distance will improve so much. Just seen this week they found away to make electric batteries without lithium and longevity of charge is superior.

I don't get it. It is supposed to be a wilderness area.
Are you expecting a congressional act to repeal such designation?

inspector13: "I don't get it. It is supposed to be a wilderness area. Are you expecting a congressional act to repeal such designation?
"

I’ve been pretty adamant that the Wilderness Act of 1978 shouldn’t be messed with, but I think the OP was just talking about the motorized areas. Making them electric instead of gas outboard engines. Not removing the Wilderness designation. Maybe I read into it wrong though?

T

timatkn: "

inspector13: "I don't get it. It is supposed to be a wilderness area. Are you expecting a congressional act to repeal such designation?
"

I’ve been pretty adamant that the Wilderness Act of 1978 shouldn’t be messed with, but I think the OP was just talking about the motorized areas. Making them electric instead of gas outboard engines. Not removing the Wilderness designation. Maybe I read into it wrong though?
T"

Yes, rereading I have to agree with you. I guess I am just sensitive to those that want to roll everything back without thinking of the consequences.

inspector13: "

timatkn: "

inspector13: "I don't get it. It is supposed to be a wilderness area. Are you expecting a congressional act to repeal such designation?
"

I’ve been pretty adamant that the Wilderness Act of 1978 shouldn’t be messed with, but I think the OP was just talking about the motorized areas. Making them electric instead of gas outboard engines. Not removing the Wilderness designation. Maybe I read into it wrong though?
T"

Yes, rereading I have to agree with you. I guess I am just sensitive to those that want to roll everything back without thinking of the consequences.
"

not me, leave as is or make more restrict. I definitely think it is time outboards should be 4 stroke. I hate the smell from outboards heading up from Moose.

Pinetree: "

inspector13: "

timatkn: "

inspector13: "I don't get it. It is supposed to be a wilderness area. Are you expecting a congressional act to repeal such designation?
"

I’ve been pretty adamant that the Wilderness Act of 1978 shouldn’t be messed with, but I think the OP was just talking about the motorized areas. Making them electric instead of gas outboard engines. Not removing the Wilderness designation. Maybe I read into it wrong though?
T"

Yes, rereading I have to agree with you. I guess I am just sensitive to those that want to roll everything back without thinking of the consequences.
"

not me, leave as is or make more restrict. I definitely think it is time outboards should be 4 stroke. I hate the smell from outboards heading up from Moose."

I agree…no expansion of motors for sure. But that is already a done deal with the original Wilderness Act. The only way to reduce is to open that act up in Congress and that would also add potential to expand motors, mining, logging, or reducing the size of the BWCAW. Not worth it! Leave it alone…the creation of the BWCAW was a political miracle to begin with.

T

Pinetree: "I remeber when the first 4 stroke outboards came out. they were huge and super heavy. Nobody wanted them. Honda came out with some excellent 4 stroke and soon mercury followed.
Have a friend who has one of those big bass boats and fishes tournaments, they never had enough gas. Now they all switched to lighter 4 stroke and their gas mileage is double at least.
I believe in 10 years batteries and distance will improve so much. Just seen this week they found away to make electric batteries without lithium and longevity of charge is superior.
"

4 stroke outboards have been mass market for a few decades now, and I believe the last 2 strokes were discontinued 5 years ago, yet the 4 strokes are still not cost efficient enough for many if not most up there to switch to them. Electric boats may not be the norm in our lifetimes.

Please no.

Mike

Any advancement in battery technology is going to require mining…lots of mining! I’m not sayin’, I’m just sayin’

GunflintTrailAngler: "Any advancement in battery technology is going to require mining…lots of mining! I’m not sayin’, I’m just sayin’"

Haha this is exactly what was going through my head as I read my way down the thread. Also people do realize 60% of our current electricity comes from burning fossil fuels don't they?

Few people consider all the trade-offs. It is the same with recycling, not that it is bad by any means, but few consider the pollution created in the recycling process. There are often angles that are never considered.

Interesting.

About a week before this thread came out I told the wifey we should get an electric motor to replace our 4hp Evinrude which needs work. I already have a 200 ah LiPo battery, just need an electric motor to puts around smaller lakes.

Gadfly: "

GunflintTrailAngler: "Any advancement in battery technology is going to require mining…lots of mining! I’m not sayin’, I’m just sayin’"

Haha this is exactly what was going through my head as I read my way down the thread. Also people do realize 60% of our current electricity comes from burning fossil fuels don't they? "

Minnesota is 33% renewable and 20% Nuclear and 47% fossil fuels.. Minnesota is creating a high voltage line to Canada's huge new dam. Much of summer electricity will come from that.

what determines if an electric motor is ok to use in the bwca? obviously things like trolling motors and battery augers are not allowed while a vexilar (which has a brushless motor in it) and an electric toothbrush seem to be ok? seems like a gray area.