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Pack Rat
senior member (63)senior membersenior member
  
06/27/2023 11:27AM  
Does anyone know the legality of this scenario? A group of 5 goes in on a permit and the permit lists 8 people. 3 days later, a group of 3 go in on a day permit to catch up with the initial 5 to stay at the same base camp. Is this an issue that could be fined or would be illegal? Just asking because there are no remaining overnight permits for the group of 3.
 
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06/27/2023 11:49AM  
I would go meet the new three campers with two in a canoe. Take the permit with you. The two would stay on the water so as not to exit the BWCA if your entry to lake is also the entry to BWCA. Otherwise, meet them at the actual entry point. In this event it would make sense for the new three to have a day permit if traveling over BWCA water to meet you.

For me, this may be a gray area where common sense should come into play and I would not feel bad about having the later arrivals join the main group. I would actually not obtain a permit for the three even should one come available since I kinda read into your issue a desire to have a total of eight in the basecamp. Some group will appreciate getting that permit.
06/27/2023 11:52AM  
That is really interesting. I'm thinking and looking at some stuff and I think you are in the clear.
iCallitMaize
distinguished member (205)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/27/2023 01:17PM  
I wouldn’t take issue with this. Legality of it, I don’t know.

However, what would stop someone from getting a permit for a day they can nab then going in later within their designated window? No one would blink on some the high quota entry points but the ones that are one per day or every other day, someone might not like it.
06/27/2023 01:29PM  
iCallitMaize: "I wouldn’t take issue with this. Legality of it, I don’t know.


However, what would stop someone from getting a permit for a day they can nab then going in later within their designated window? No one would blink on some the high quota entry points but the ones that are one per day or every other day, someone might not like it. "


Well dang if you go that route then you could technically go in 2 months later. There is no limit to how long you can be in there.
06/27/2023 01:39PM  
the first permit would need to be issued for the total number of people (including the ones coming in on a day pass to join them for the duration of the trip).

user fees must be paid for all participants....

a day pass can not spend the night overnight. if site is checked and permit is for only 5 but there is 8 then there'd be some s'plaining to do.

this is just my opinion.
06/27/2023 02:00PM  
That is what he is talking about Mocha. Purchase for 8 but only 5 go in the day of. 3 come in at a later date but all 8 are paid for.
iCallitMaize
distinguished member (205)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/27/2023 03:27PM  
x2jmorris: "
iCallitMaize: "I wouldn’t take issue with this. Legality of it, I don’t know.



However, what would stop someone from getting a permit for a day they can nab then going in later within their designated window? No one would blink on some the high quota entry points but the ones that are one per day or every other day, someone might not like it. "



Well dang if you go that route then you could technically go in 2 months later. There is no limit to how long you can be in there. "


Yeah that’s it…say you want to go June 12 into LISN…there’s no permits but there is one on May 29. Just book May 29 permit stating you will be there through June 19. I’m sure it happens.

pleflar
senior member (71)senior membersenior member
  
06/27/2023 03:41PM  
iCallitMaize: "
x2jmorris: "
iCallitMaize: "I wouldn’t take issue with this. Legality of it, I don’t know.



However, what would stop someone from getting a permit for a day they can nab then going in later within their designated window? No one would blink on some the high quota entry points but the ones that are one per day or every other day, someone might not like it. "




Well dang if you go that route then you could technically go in 2 months later. There is no limit to how long you can be in there. "



Yeah that’s it…say you want to go June 12 into LISN…there’s no permits but there is one on May 29. Just book May 29 permit stating you will be there through June 19. I’m sure it happens.


"


Just gotta make sure that you pick up the permit on May 28 or 29, in that case.
iCallitMaize
distinguished member (205)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/27/2023 03:55PM  
Yup…difficult for an out of towner but totally doable for someone who lives close.
06/27/2023 03:58PM  
Lots of comments already but I will add the following...

Firstly, I don't believe there is a limit to the number of self-issue day use permits. You fill these out at the EP.

Secondly, and more importantly, the maximum number of canoes is 4 and people is 9 for a permit. Thus, if what's being asked about is allowed there can be only 4 canoes total between the initial group of 5 and the following group of 3.

Lastly, if it were me, I'd contact one of the Ranger stations and ask about the scenario. They should have the definitive answer. And if it's NO, I'm not sure that saying someone on bwca.com said it was ok will prove of any value if you encounter a USFS ranger, however unlikely that may be.

To the last item, I just sent an email to the Kawishiwi Ranger Station asking the OP's question. Will post their response if I receive one.
AlexanderSupertramp
distinguished member (399)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/27/2023 03:58PM  
iCallitMaize:
Yeah that’s it…say you want to go June 12 into LISN…there’s no permits but there is one on May 29. Just book May 29 permit stating you will be there through June 19. I’m sure it happens.
"


The only way I could see this backfiring is if a ranger watched you walk your canoe from your vehicle, load it up, and shove off from the entry point, then immediately checked your permit, while you also did NOT have day-paddle permit with you. Might have a tough time explaining that one. Otherwise I suppose without them physically witnessing you enter the BWCA, they have to assume it was the day on the permit.

iCallitMaize
distinguished member (205)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/27/2023 04:10PM  
Just to be clear…I’m not advocating this.

It was just the first thing I thought of when OP asked their question.
Pack Rat
senior member (63)senior membersenior member
  
06/27/2023 04:43PM  
Hi everyone,

Thank you for your thoughts and comments. I am not trying to circumnavigate the rules. I just ran into a situation where a dad and his 2 sons were delayed and can't make our original entry. His secondary plan was to get a separate overnight permit and meet us. However there are no more permits for his entry date. I guess it is a case of the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. Thanks for your comments.

Pack Rat
06/27/2023 05:29PM  
Pack Rat: "Hi everyone,


Thank you for your thoughts and comments. I am not trying to circumnavigate the rules. I just ran into a situation where a dad and his 2 sons were delayed and can't make our original entry. His secondary plan was to get a separate overnight permit and meet us. However there are no more permits for his entry date. I guess it is a case of the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. Thanks for your comments.


Pack Rat"


Like another said PackRat. It is almost better you do it with one permit. Everyone is on it still and everyone is still paying and everyone is still using one site. If they bought another permit then it takes away from someone who might be trying to get a last minute one.
06/27/2023 05:38PM  
x2jmorris: "That is what he is talking about Mocha. Purchase for 8 but only 5 go in the day of. 3 come in at a later date but all 8 are paid for."


Sorry, missed that detail. In this case, could u leave one of the stubs that has his name on it at the outfitter so he could pick it up and paddle in?
06/27/2023 05:39PM  
bobbernumber3: "
x2jmorris: "That is what he is talking about Mocha. Purchase for 8 but only 5 go in the day of. 3 come in at a later date but all 8 are paid for."



Yep... gotta read the post."


Chill man, I have old eyes!
billconner
distinguished member(8662)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
  
06/27/2023 06:04PM  
I believe the rules require that people listed on the permit must enter on the entry date. Pretty sure not allowed. Likely you'd never be caught.
AluminumBarge
member (49)member
  
06/27/2023 09:22PM  
I had a similar situation a number of years ago. We had 7 people and three canoes. 5 of us in two canoes drove up the day before entry so we could get to Fourtown early to get a site. Two others had a scheduling conflict and couldn’t drive up until the day of entry. So they weren’t able to hit Fourtown until the evening. We had a permit for 7 and 3 canoes. Listed one of the two driving up as an alternate leader. We left one of the permit tabs in our car for them to carry on their way in. We all entered on they same day, so it’s a little different than the OP. Personally, I wouldn’t have an issue if they used our method as long as they could reach the other party in one day, though that may not be the letter of the law. I wouldn’t suggest it if it took more than a day and they needed to set up camp elsewhere.
tumblehome
distinguished member(2978)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/28/2023 07:19AM  
Crickey, 8 people on a campsite to base camp. That’s gotta be hell on the campsite.
I camp alone and still notice the impact I have.
Hammertime
distinguished member (279)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/28/2023 09:24AM  
Go for it!
Bjfinnegan
senior member (77)senior membersenior member
  
06/28/2023 10:59AM  
Two issues stand out to me:

Number of tabs given at permit issuance. You're only given copies or tabs of the permit per boat. Our issuing outfitter retains any of the extras.

On our Mudro entry this year we came across 2 Rangers on the second portage, had some friendly conversation, and per usual they asked to check our permits. I imagine they would question why we had packs of gear if we were only on a day permit such as your case.
06/28/2023 11:52AM  
Bjfinnegan: "Two issues stand out to me:


Number of tabs given at permit issuance. You're only given copies or tabs of the permit per boat. Our issuing outfitter retains any of the extras.


On our Mudro entry this year we came across 2 Rangers on the second portage, had some friendly conversation, and per usual they asked to check our permits. I imagine they would question why we had packs of gear if we were only on a day permit such as your case. "


That second issue would be hard to explain lol.
06/28/2023 12:11PM  
You could be doing a resupply for someone. That happens throughout the summer
Pack Rat
senior member (63)senior membersenior member
  
06/28/2023 02:26PM  
Thank you all for the great ideas. Mocha, I will try to find a way to leave a stub for my buddy and his kids. Finnegan and Morris, do you think the rangers would believe it if they say there wasn't a good hanging tree and felt they needed to keep all their gear with them to keep it away from bears?? Tumblehome, I will trip with you so you don't have to camp alone all the time.?? We promise to tread lightly!
Again, thanks for all of the input from you all


Pack Rat
06/28/2023 02:38PM  
if they have an overnight stub from the original permi they dont need an excuse to have gear.

the entering a day late though, is question for someone in the know.
Hockhocking
senior member (93)senior membersenior member
  
06/28/2023 04:35PM  
Right, one time I have been asked for a permit, the backcountry ranger was hanging out in the main traffic lane just around the point from the actual entry, checking groups coming and going. I got the impression they were particularly interested in stopping the basecamped folks who were going back to their vehicles and making a town run for ice and beer. Enforcing the one entry on the specified date rule. Two other times I have had my permit checked, we just happened to meet a ranger on patrol.
06/28/2023 06:56PM  
While it feels ok ethically, I'm not sure the law would agree. Seems a gray area that should be explored through a Forest Service station.
Bjfinnegan
senior member (77)senior membersenior member
  
06/28/2023 09:54PM  
Pack Rat: "Thank you all for the great ideas. Mocha, I will try to find a way to leave a stub for my buddy and his kids. Finnegan and Morris, do you think the rangers would believe it if they say there wasn't a good hanging tree and felt they needed to keep all their gear with them to keep it away from bears?? Tumblehome, I will trip with you so you don't have to camp alone all the time.?? We promise to tread lightly!
Again, thanks for all of the input from you all



Pack Rat"


Clearly this is a test of friendship requiring day 1 boats to carry in the majority of gear and bags of the day 2 boats so that the day 2 boats are only carrying "day use" quantities in case they are stopped.
billconner
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06/29/2023 05:56AM  
Look for another permit close enough to catch up, or another entry where there are permits available for both days.

Maybe plander will get a reply from USFS.
gravelroad
distinguished member(1026)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
06/29/2023 07:47AM  
Here’s what the USFS will tell you, whether you call them first or watch as they hand out the citations to the offending individuals:

You can’t join an overnight party when you are not listed on the overnight permit. You can’t enter and stay overnight unless you are actually with the other people listed on the overnight permit when they enter.

Do anything else at your own risk.

(The situation would be different if both parties had overnight permits. There is nothing in the regulations or Forest Supervisor's Orders that bars two parties from occupying the same campsite and travelling together so long as the four boat/nine people rule is observed.)
06/29/2023 01:34PM  
plander: "Lots of comments already but I will add the following...


Firstly, I don't believe there is a limit to the number of self-issue day use permits. You fill these out at the EP.


Secondly, and more importantly, the maximum number of canoes is 4 and people is 9 for a permit. Thus, if what's being asked about is allowed there can be only 4 canoes total between the initial group of 5 and the following group of 3.


Lastly, if it were me, I'd contact one of the Ranger stations and ask about the scenario. They should have the definitive answer. And if it's NO, I'm not sure that saying someone on bwca.com said it was ok will prove of any value if you encounter a USFS ranger, however unlikely that may be.


To the last item, I just sent an email to the Kawishiwi Ranger Station asking the OP's question. Will post their response if I receive one."


Ok, got a response from the USFS Kawishiwi Ranger Station. Unfortunately the response doesn't directly answer my question... but I shouldn't be surprised as this is consistent with my past experience with the Superior Ranger Stations. A simple yes or no would have sufficed, and definitely would have been more clear/helpful.

As an aside, when I communicate with Trevor Gibb of Quetico Park, I always receive thoughtful responses with a more considerate tone (see the second image below for an unrelated question I asked Trevor today).

Tone is everything.

Gotta love the Canadians.



billconner
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06/29/2023 05:59PM  
Seems clear to me. You can only enter on the date of your permit.
06/29/2023 07:38PM  
That response just brings us back to square one with one exception. If they did get a separate permit then that bans them from staying at the same site since its technically combining permits?

And yes the group cannot enter at a later date on the initial permit

BUT

It doesn't address the self issued day permit being used to meet the original permit. Which I think most of us agree is probably against the rules but it really isn't clear. I also think its ok to do as the spirit of maintaining the rules is trying to be followed imo.
06/29/2023 11:19PM  
x2jmorris: "That response just brings us back to square one with one exception. If they did get a separate permit then that bans them from staying at the same site since its technically combining permits?


And yes the group cannot enter at a later date on the initial permit


BUT


It doesn't address the self issued day permit being used to meet the original permit. Which I think most of us agree is probably against the rules but it really isn't clear. I also think its ok to do as the spirit of maintaining the rules is trying to be followed imo."


I agree i think its ok due to the good spirit mentioned. Would I do it? You bet. Would I advise you to, no.
billconner
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06/30/2023 06:08AM  
x2jmorris: "That response just brings us back to square one with one exception. If they did get a separate permit then that bans them from staying at the same site since its technically combining permits?


And yes the group cannot enter at a later date on the initial permit


BUT


It doesn't address the self issued day permit being used to meet the original permit. Which I think most of us agree is probably against the rules but it really isn't clear. I also think its ok to do as the spirit of maintaining the rules is trying to be followed imo."


I don't believe there is any regulation that prohibits two groups with separate permits staying at same site. 9 people and 4 canoes is only limit.

And I believe it's been established that it's fine and legal for part of a group to join the permit holding group with a day permit as long as they enter same day and sane entry permit.

It's all about the quota system. Only so many overnighters can enter on any one day at any one entry point.

Pack Rat
senior member (63)senior membersenior member
  
07/17/2023 07:23PM  
Just wanted to update on my question and our group's resolution. I ended up watching the Recreation.gov daily every couple of hours. It took a couple weeks but we snagged a permit for my buddy and his kids on the day he needed so we we don't have to do the day permit thing.
YetiJedi
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07/17/2023 10:05PM  
Pack Rat: "Just wanted to update on my question and our group's resolution. I ended up watching the Recreation.gov daily every couple of hours. It took a couple weeks but we snagged a permit for my buddy and his kids on the day he needed so we we don't have to do the day permit thing."


Hurray! Have an awesome trip!
 
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