A couple buddies and I are looking into a trip this year. I have lots of questions, but one I don't see addressed in the forum is whether or not to use a guide.

My initial thought was, of course, we need a guide. Never been in the area before. Haven't ever canoe camped, etc. The more I read, though, the less this seems necessary.

There will be, at least, three of us. We're all physically fit and have experience camping and backpacking. I'm familiar with map-reading and GPS. Looking at a 5 to 7 day trip and hoping to be away from crowds. Probably a late Aug/early Sept. trip. Will rely on an outfitter to equip us.

The main benefit I see to having a guide is making sure everything goes smoothly. I know they provide a lot more value than that, but I'm mostly thinking from a safety perspective. I don't want to have a bad trip or impact others because we made a poor decision.

What do you all think?

Any other advice for a bunch of rookies from California would be appreciated. I suspect this will be a one-time trip (too many places to go, not enough time, $$) so if there are any "don't miss" things to do, please chime in.

It is my own opinion that you only need a guide if you don't want to put in the time and effort of planning. A guide is nice if you want to just show up and not be burdened with figuring out routes, food, etc. I have never used a guide and I am not an expert. The first time I went to the bwca was with a buddy and we did everything wrong. Wrong canoe, not enough food, packed too much. But we still had a blast and created memories we will never forget. I have gone several times since and have learned from mistakes and have never had a bad time up there.

If it were me, I would put in the time to plan, ask a lot of questions on here, and go for it without the guide. If you're not familiar with paddling a canoe, do some practicing before you head out and read up. There are books that give canoeing tips.

I would say not necessary - most people don't. Canoe camping is basically like backpacking with a canoe, only more paddling, so you should be fine and basic navigation skills will do fine.

The main challenge will relate to canoeing experience and skills, which you didn't directly address.

As far as safety, not much different from backpacking, hiking, camping. Obviously you won't want to be in the middle of a big lake during a T-storm with lightning.

Impacting others - if you double portage, don't leave your stuff in the middle of the portage landing. Avoid being obnoxiously loud, etc.

Know the rules and regulations and follow the LNT guidelines. You can get a lot of information about that from the "Planning" tab at the top.

Click the "Outfitter" tab above, check out there websites, and pick an outfitter that serves the area where you want to go. Then contact them - you'll find them enormously helpful.

If you feel confident in your abilities in the wilderness and are adept at backpacking and camping it's more of an adventure on your own. My 13 year old son and I did 5 days in the summer of 17 it was a blast do your homework and it will be an adventure fail to plan and it'll be rough.

I don't think you will need a guide. The outfitters can also be a great value. They deal with people like you all the time. Have you decided on an outfitter yet? As mentioned above, this forum is a great source of information

First trip was 6 days with just me an an 8 year old son. No guide needed.

Nowhere you go will be so remote you won't see some other people once or twice a day, or when passing other campsites, so even if you got lost, you'd get set back on the right path.

This site can give you 99% of the information you'll need, and you'll find out planning is half the fun.

A good outfitter will get you all squared away so you won't need aguide. They'll make sure you have the right equipment and canoes and know how to use them. They'll help you plan a route and itinerary. They'll pack your food, help you get permits, Mark your maps, and transport you to the entry point. They'll answer any and all questions you have. Contact them early. Tomorrow is not too soon. If not tomorrow, as soon as you can.

My first trip started with a conversation in a bar in Biwabik one night. Borrowed some equipment form some locals and off we went the next day. I had a canoe. My friend Miller and I base camped on Horse Lake. Sure we made mistakes mainly with our gear choices. Had very limited navigation skills. We had a blast and learned a lot. My point is we had fun even though our planning was very minimal because the trip was on a whim. With some planning you'll do fine. No guild needed.

Most folks will say that you don't need a guide, but guess what some people do need a guide, are you one? Maybe not, maybe so. Look around this site, read through some trip reports, immerse yourself in what others have experienced then if you feel you want a guide contact an outfitter and they'll set you up with a contact it all depends on your comfort level and you alone know that.

Very few people use guides although I’m sure that they do a great job. A guide could help you with fishing success and pointing out flora and fauna. So there can be some benefits in addition to organizing the trip. I know one guide and he just loves sharing the wilderness with people. I’m sure others are the same.

Because you have wilderness experience, you should do fine without one. I would try to get in some paddling back at home in California. Before our first BWCA trip, we did a weekend on Tomales Bay (Point Reyes) and also a river day trip in Ohio during a trip to a family event. We were also pretty experienced at both canoeing and camping but had never combined them. We did go with friends who had several previous BWCA trips.

The most serious mistake you could make is getting out on the water when it is too windy or wavy for your skills. Plan for layover days and don’t push under those conditions. Most likely it will be far nicer at sunrise the next morning. It wasn’t even dangerous but we were just tired of battling a fierce headwind and cut our second to last day short. The next day at dawn it the water was like glass and we were treated to a beaver family out and about. Karma. And we still got to the takeout at the right time that day. Note that outfitters (and the friends who were picking us up) understand that bad weather will delay people. They will wait and/or come back. Even changing airline tickets for the flights home is way cheaper than drowning.

Also wear your PFD at all times in the canoe.

The most likely thing that will be hard is portaging. Avoid loose items so that it is quick and easy to move from lake to portage and back again. Have the outfitter show you how to lift the canoes, carry them, and put them back down. When I take newcomers, I like to have them at our cabin for a day or two before a trip and do a day trip with some portaging. That’s not critical but don’t rush off so fast that you don’t get all the questions answered. We once met a couple at the end of their first day. After confirming that they were right where they thought (so kudos for their map skills), I told them they had their bent shaft paddles backwards, making them inefficient. They were probably just too rushed early that morning when the outfitter showed them the paddles.

Finally, I would get Cliff Jacobsen’s book on BWCA canoe camping. I think it lays out what a trip is like and the basic skills. Then ask lots of questions here.

You will have a great time. That’s a wonderful time of year.

If you are comfortable with your skills - ESPECIALLY navigating with a map and compass,

and....

If you are comfortable with the maturity of your tripmates

and....

if you are comfortable with your ability to judge water conditions before deciding to get into the boat,

and....

if you are comfortable with your ability to use this board as a means to do some research in the next 7 months

you'll be fine.

Find a lake, find an outfitter close to the lake, work with the outfitter. They cater to people like you every single day. They will rent you everything but your toothbrush for the trip. They will access you skills and choose a route for you. Have fun.

i would also say you don't necessarily need a guide. is this a one shot deal and only trip you'll ever do in the BWCA? then, maybe you would want a guide so you get the full experience and knowledge of someone who loves the place and loves to share and might just talk you into coming back!

honestly, i should have had a guide on my very first trip now that i look back on that experience. however, i just learned from that trip, and eventually got myself a job on the edge of the bwca, learned lots and then started sharing that info with lots of people who had never done anything like camping, canoeing....

now, i look forward to having a guide on future trips. maybe arthritis has set in, i don't know, but i can't do everything i could do just a few years ago. there are so many more places i'd like to travel and learn about in the bwca and quetico. i'm not too proud to hire a guide, just need to save enough money to pay for that service.

i say, figure out what your group wants out of your trip. California is a long way to travel and not have a good time.

Probably not, but maybe........

Here's why I went back, click link below........

Why I Went Back

Use this site to the max. Usually when we get to a lake, I know where every island, bay, and campsite are beforehand. I know depths of the lake - Research a lot. If you have a question about ANYTHING, chances are this site has several answers and opinions. You will learn much more without a guide and figure it out on your own. We are going to be doing our 6th trip this spring, and are still fine tuning things.

My response has been covered - you don't need a guide. Prepare via using this website and an outiffter - you'll learn what you need to learn, and have a great time.

My first trip was a 6-night trip with me and 4 other 17-year olds, going in with little to no clue of what we were doing, just wanted to be in the woods. If we could pull it off, you certainly can.

I would say no, do your research before hand and you will be fine.

I'm in the "no guide" camp as well. I was a very experienced backpacker before my first trips and *most* of the skills translate perfectly to the BWCA experience. The Leave No Trace Ethic is so key. Sounds like fitness wont be a liability. Being from California, I imagine you understand how to manage your campsite such that Black Bears will leave you alone (or not have the red carpet laid out for them). It sounds like you have the navigational skills to get from A to B without too much trouble. You may have a leg up on packing light for food, but the bonus of a canoe is you can bring a few extra food/beverage luxuries you may want as the ounces aren't on your back all day. My advice is to be conservative on your miles that you want to cover. To me that's you're biggest X factor.

Is fishing a priority? If so, you should be able to easily convince Quetico Mike to share his Grand Slam article he wrote that breaks down some simple but successful techniques for fishing the 4 common sport fish there. ;) I'm happy to help on that front but I'm by no means an expert.

I'd also be more than happy to share my packing list if you'd like. My email is in my profile, I'd suggest joining as a member here. I did last year and have thoroughly enjoyed my interactions with the folks on this site. I'm excited for your trip!

I would second everyone else’s suggestion that a guide is not needed. The only reason I would see for a guide is if you really wanted to get on the fish like crazy and that was your sole concern, then a fishing guide would help tons. With that being said, you certainly don’t need a guide to catch lots of fish, even without a ton of fishing background. I would consider myself a moderately experienced fisherman and I’ve always caught more than enough fish to feed the group.

Welcome to the group and don’t hesitate to ask questions as you plan out your trek. Lots of helpful people here with tons of experience to “guide” you in your planning.

Paddle On,

Tony

If you are going to use an outfitter, they can give you some good advise. In fact, some have an orientation, that will get you off to a good start. Just portaging and canoe camping you will likely do just fine. Catching fish is another thing all together. I have been tripping to the BWCA for over sixty years, once a week during the Summer. That is about all the fishing I do. I still find it necessary to use a Gunflint guide to have good fishing success. Unless you are an expert angler with north woods experience, it would not hurt to hire a guide to get you onto some good fishing.

Thanks to everyone for their response! This is a pretty amazing resource. I appreciate the different perspectives and will definitely use this site for further research.

Happy paddling to all of you!

Pat, nothing wrong with hiring a guide if you want to or it will make you more comfortable. But I don't know anyone who has ever hired one and honestly, people with absolutely no camping or canoeing experience go up there and do fine. Just do your homework and make good decisions.

Although you will likely see a few people, they are not always around if you should need them. Safety is paramount, make every step deliberate on the portages, don't take any chances and be aware. You will be fine.

The most common issues safety wise are people falling on portages, breaking bones or turning ankles, tipping in a canoe(some have drowned) because conditions are too windy for their safety, or mishaps with woodcutting. It is a wilderness like area, there are no first aid stations and may not even be a cell signal available. But many thousands of people go up there every year and there are few problems. As previously stated, the more prepared you are through research of routes, fishing and best practices, the smoother the trip will likely go and the more fun you will have.

There are so many entry points and routes to choose from, that will be a tough decision. But to mostly eliminate the wind issue, if that is a concern, you can easily do a route that has mostly small lakes and river like paddling, there are many of them available.

Ask questions about anything, we have all been in your shoes, love to talk about it and give our advice and opinions. When you have narrowed your route choices down you will find lots of information available including ratings of many campsites and portages and trip reports of others who have been in the same area.

One way to look at the guide question is that if you decide to save the money and not hire one, you could use that money to by yourself a nice piece of equipment that you would then not need to rent and will be useful on future camping trips of any kind...lightweight sleeping bag, pad, gravity water filtration system, etc.

I included a link to a trip report from several years ago if you are interested. There are hundreds of them here, some with less detail and some with more. Just an example of the information that is available.

sample trip report

Have a great trip.

Pat K: "...
...

... I suspect this will be a one-time trip (too many places to go, not enough time, $$) so if there are any "don't miss" things to do, please chime in.
"

Perhaps because this could be a one-time trip, a guide could provide a "Once-in-a-Lifetime" you wouldn't experience otherwise. Plus, I think there is a particular shortage of California dollars in northern Minnesota. So, if it were my decision, you should pay for a guide and enjoy the experience. I'd get one myself but both Ely and Grand Marais are flush with southern Minnesota dollars. ;)

Maybe if you are terrible at map reading, but probably not even then, most people figure it out. A lot of the adventure, and my fondest memories is "figuring it out". It is not supposed to be easy. Have a great trip!

no, outfit your self thru a bwca outfitter and make your own experience. you will talk about it the rest of your lives.

As most people have commented, it would appear that you could get along just fine without a guide, especially if you utilize the services of a quality outfitter.

But let me make a case for a guide. First of all, a guide will make sure that your first trip is a first class experience! They will make sure that you have all of the proper gear and the appropriate type and quantity of food for your trip. They will help your learning curve when it comes to navigating through the maze of islands, bays, and peninsulas that the BWCA is known. They will help you learn how to travel efficiently; both paddling and portaging. They will know where the best campsites are located, where to get away from other paddlers, they will know the local sites that you should be visiting (waterfalls, pictographs, etc.). And finally many of them are experts at teaching you to fish the canoe country and will help you enjoy a few fresh fish meals on your trip.

Yes, the guide is an extra expense, but I think it is worth it for a first trip. Spend the extra few dollars and ensure that your trip is everything you are hoping it will be, then when you come back in future years, you will be able to do the trips on your own.

CrookedPaddler1: "
But let me make a case for a guide. First of all, a guide will make sure that your first trip is a first class experience! They will make sure that you have all of the proper gear and the appropriate type and quantity of food for your trip. They will help your learning curve when it comes to navigating through the maze of islands, bays, and peninsulas that the BWCA is known. They will help you learn how to travel efficiently; both paddling and portaging. They will know where the best campsites are located, where to get away from other paddlers, they will know the local sites that you should be visiting (waterfalls, pictographs, etc.). And finally many of them are experts at teaching you to fish the canoe country and will help you enjoy a few fresh fish meals on your trip.

Yes, the guide is an extra expense, but I think it is worth it for a first trip. Spend the extra few dollars and ensure that your trip is everything you are hoping it will be, then when you come back in future years, you will be able to do the trips on your own."

I was thinking the same thing. Also, he mentions that it might be one and done because of other choices and places to visit. I would get a good guide recommendation and if you can afford to do that then by all means do it. It will be a far richer experience IMO.

If you only have three guys, I would recommend you try to get four (me). Look for a guy who has been on a few trips (me) and has experience leading a group (me). Also, look for a guy who can do meal planning (me) and cooking (me). Basic skills of map reading, fishing expertise, and a positive attitude (me, me, me) all would help.

I'm not sure where you would find a guy of this caliber to go with you as a guide...

GickFirk22: "I'm in the "no guide" camp as well. I was a very experienced backpacker before my first trips and *most* of the skills translate perfectly to the BWCA experience. The Leave No Trace Ethic is so key. Sounds like fitness wont be a liability. Being from California, I imagine you understand how to manage your campsite such that Black Bears will leave you alone (or not have the red carpet laid out for them). It sounds like you have the navigational skills to get from A to B without too much trouble. You may have a leg up on packing light for food, but the bonus of a canoe is you can bring a few extra food/beverage luxuries you may want as the ounces aren't on your back all day. My advice is to be conservative on your miles that you want to cover. To me that's you're biggest X factor.


Is fishing a priority? If so, you should be able to easily convince Quetico Mike to share his Grand Slam article he wrote that breaks down some simple but successful techniques for fishing the 4 common sport fish there. ;) I'm happy to help on that front but I'm by no means an expert.


I'd also be more than happy to share my packing list if you'd like. My email is in my profile, I'd suggest joining as a member here. I did last year and have thoroughly enjoyed my interactions with the folks on this site. I'm excited for your trip!


"

If you want to read my article on Grand Slam Lures just send me an email - queticomike@yahoo.com - if you like fishing for smallmouth I have 4 other articles I am willing to share, all you have to do is ask. Good luck on your trip!

bobbernumber3: "If you only have three guys, I would recommend you try to get four (me). Look for a guy who has been on a few trips (me) and has experience leading a group (me). Also, look for a guy who can do meal planning (me) and cooking (me). Basic skills of map reading, fishing expertise, and a positive attitude (me, me, me) all would help.

I'm not sure where you would find a guy of this caliber to go with you as a guide..."

You (you) forgot to include the price the guide (you) would demand for the guide's (your) services.....

nooneuno: You (you) forgot to include the price the guide (you) would demand for the guide's (your) services....."

Who? Me?? I might do it for free for some appreciative new-comers to Canoe Country...

You dont need a guide. My 1st trip ever I was 24, the head chaperone of a group with 3- 13 year old girls, 3-13 year old boys and a woman chaperone that had no experience (and was crazy). It was a trip through the school where I had taught science for a couple years. They did 6 different groups and I was the most experienced chaperone with NO real experience. I had NO canoe country experience. Lots of camping a local parks, a little fishing experience. They usually sent 1 experienced chaperone with each group but had a real tough time finding chaperones that year.
It was my only trip in the west side of the BWaters. Boy did I learn a lot on that trip about everything in canoe country. Caught my 1st 10 SBass ever. Caught my 1st pike over 28". Had a girl catch a loon on a stick bait from camp...that thing burst out of the water like a rocket. Got yelled at by the other chaperone for coming back after dark because she was so worried (we were getting fun pike in the shadows where the sun was still hitting). The camp stove sopped working on day 2 so we had 4 days with cooking ONLY over the fire.

We had a great time.
Since then I have done 14 trips and loved every second of it.

Sounds like you have A LOT less to deal with than I did on my 1st trip. You will do great and love it.
An outfitter will get all the gear together for u, of what you still need.
I recommend Tuscarora Outfitters. They are great and have access to lots of entry points.
A guide will cost you a lot more $ but I promise you will catch more fish with one. I didnt really start to catch good numbers of fish till my 4th or 5th trip and I still have some rough days...but also some incredible ones.

-Good luck

Since you mentioned California and navigation, I will give you a caveat. I learned most of my back country navigation skills in the SE Arizona mountains while backpacking. With a compass and a topo map, I could look around, read the mountains, and know right where I was at. Never owned a GPS in AZ. Navigating in BWCA is very different, especially in the western part of the park, which has less topography. When you are sitting in a canoe, the entire shoreline can look the same sometimes when it is just trees meeting the water. Difficult to tell what is an island vs a peninsula, etc.

Also takes awhile to start to “see” the campsites, portages, etc. I’m good with it now (did a loop through Crooked last year without turning on the GPS). Took several trips to get accustomed to the different navigation skills. Not saying you need a guide, but just don’t get flustered if it is harder than the mountain navigation you’ve done before and don’t be afraid to use the GPS if you have one.

Not necessarily...but I'm available LOL
I have guided for Gunflint Outfitters the past few years. Mostly youth groups (16 years old city girls/ with chaperones)
Looking back on my first trip in 1985, my brother and I certainly needed direction, so a guide may have been a good idea....however, we had a pretty good knowledge of camping and canoeing that we weren't totally without experience.... and we have returned every year since.
There has been some great advise given in this thread that if followed, will point you in the right direction.

Abbey: "Since you mentioned California and navigation, I will give you a caveat. I learned most of my back country navigation skills in the SE Arizona mountains while backpacking. With a compass and a topo map, I could look around, read the mountains, and know right where I was at. Never owned a GPS in AZ. Navigating in BWCA is very different, especially in the western part of the park, which has less topography. When you are sitting in a canoe, the entire shoreline can look the same sometimes when it is just trees meeting the water. Difficult to tell what is an island vs a peninsula, etc.


Also takes awhile to start to “see” the campsites, portages, etc. I’m good with it now (did a loop through Crooked last year without turning on the GPS). Took several trips to get accustomed to the different navigation skills. Not saying you need a guide, but just don’t get flustered if it is harder than the mountain navigation you’ve done before and don’t be afraid to use the GPS if you have one. "

Abbey has a good point about topography in Calif. and Minnesota. Being from Calif. myself and learning most of my map reading skills in the mountains, I will give you a hint that really helped me. Stay found. As I am paddling, the map is in front of me and orientated to north. As I pass a island, point, or campsite, I put a dot on the map. The more experience you get the less you will have to do this. My very first trip was from Calif. Did a 45 mile loop. Using this method never had a problem. Good luck. Oh, by the way, if you like camping or backpacking, you will be back!!!! I'm working on my 14 trip this summer.

I have found guides and first mates to be interesting people and an intangible asset for more than logistical efforts.

I have several friends who are guides and they will provide more than just getting you from point A to point B. Most guides are also good "people" persons can can add much positive vibes to group dynamics while making your trip less stressful.

Of course much depends on your finances.......a good guide won't come cheaply. But if you have the dough why not? A good guide will also be an excellent instructor and will pass along much knowledge in an abbreviated time frame. Why make all the mistakes yourself when you can learn from others?

I went with a bunch of high rollers on an offshore 3 day fishing trip. They insisted on hiring a first mate to help with various tasks. I had previously never had a mate on the trip but enjoyed the addition immensely and we became fast friends.

A good guide will add to group dynamics and get you around in fine style. You will come off the trip far more educated than you might be otherwise.

I agree with others that you probably don't need a guide. I made my first trip in 1999 with my 14 year-old son along with a classmate of my son and his father. We had no experience and very limited knowledge to plan our trip. A friend or mine recommended that I contact Mark Zup at Zup's Resort (www.zupsresort.com or 888-602-2277) to outfit us and plan the trip. It was one of the best decisions I have ever made. Mark helped plan almost every detail of our trip. This year will make my 20th trip and every one has made through Zup's Resort.

Let Mark know what you are interested in and he will help with initial planning and give you lots of suggestions before your trip. He will meet with you at the resort the night before you begin your canoe trip to mark up maps and help with the final detail plans for your adventure. Zup's is on the western end of the Quetico / BWCA. After a good nights sleep at the resort, they will motor you directly to your entry point by 8:00 AM so you can maximize your trip time. All equipment and food is first class.

Also you might want to check out the Boundary Waters Journal (www.boundarywatersjournal.com). Lots of good articles and recommendations for your trip.