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      Lightweight day paddler     

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wingnut
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03/29/2019 06:35AM
Didn't want to hijack the thread on the four person boat design so I thought I would start another. Jim, What are your thoughts on modifying an existing plan to come up with a lightweight day paddler. I'm set on a boat similar to the DY designed, Vagabond, Kestrel and sommersong. I've tried contacting DY but no luck. I have modified plans for a "Magic like" boat with fair results so I'm open to trying to modify a set of plans for A lighter, hopefully faster day use design.
 
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sedges
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03/29/2019 08:37AM
Both Bear Mountain Boatworks and Green Valley Boatworks have a variety of solo plans. Some are very fast like the BMB 17' Solo Tripper and the GVB Barricuda. Others are more DY-like. BNB Freedom Solo and GVB Osprey, Kite and Shearwater.

Modifying symmetrical hulls is pretty straight forward. Modifying assymetrical hulls, like all of those above, gets into some issues too complicated for me. Both Steve Killing and John Winters are serious designers.
 
wingnut
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03/29/2019 11:12AM
I'd like to stay in the 15' range and keep the weight down. I've read reviews where the Kite, Osprey were thought to be nice boats but that you would not win any races with them. I think if I could get down to the 27.5" Max beam 25.5 waterline range where the boats I mentioned are I would have an easy paddling boat. I'm by no means a racer. I don't remember the specs for the Shearwater, I'll have to look it up. I agree that Winters and Killing are respected designers but I don't think either has the boat I'm looking for.
My first attempt at modification was crude at best. Stretching and redrawing the existing plans to change the shear height, rocker and tumblehome to come up with "Magic like" specs.
 
Arcola
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03/29/2019 08:07PM
Wingnut. I have just the boat. Its a DY inspired 15' solo. Faster than the magic. PM me.
 
1JimD
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03/30/2019 09:40PM
I'd take Arcola's offer !

I've paddled a nice solo he's designed, and built. Yes that's it !
Easy to paddle at a good pace !
Depending on your size, a 15' would be good, but anything up to 16' should be a good choice !
 
1JimD
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03/30/2019 09:48PM
One other hull to look into, is the JW Barracuda !
One fast hull !

Jim
 
wingnut
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03/31/2019 04:23PM
I apologize for the slow response. Just got back from the Maple syrup Festival weekend. Thanks for the offer Arcola. I'll send you an Email soon.
Jim, how does your Pearl match up to the Vagabond, Kestrel, Summersong or the solo Arcola designed? Weight could be a factor as I weigh in at 215 Lbs but as I said It's not for tripping just for day trips, no gear. The only Barracuda canoe I can think of is a boat designed for racing. Is that the one?
 
1JimD
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03/31/2019 04:45PM
I'm on the Spot ! I really like my Pearl ! I'm in the 230 # + range, and so it fits me well !
Arcola is quite a bit lighter ! I will reserve my opinion, but offer Arcola his account, as we both Swapped boats for a short time up on Lake Nokomis (Mpls Minn) !

I'm 68, and two years ago, I had the chance to compare my Pearl to a well built JW Kite. I and Alan Gage ( The owner of the Kite) had an impromptu race on a little Lake in NW Iowa. My Pearl is definitely Faster ! At 15'11", it should be !

Jim

 
1JimD
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03/31/2019 04:59PM
Yes, The JW Barracuda is the Corvette of the bunch !

Jim
 
Arcola
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03/31/2019 09:25PM
Jim's Pearl is a nice boat to be sure. I guess it's like buying shoes; try'em on before you buy them. Any solo stripper will be in the upper 30's to low 40's weight wise.
 
1JimD
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03/31/2019 09:52PM
Arcola

It would be fun to meet up and paddle again !

Maybe Wingnut could join us, and test for himself ?

Jim
 
Arcola
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04/01/2019 06:03AM
That would be good. Dan's having the first Nokomis paddle in April sometime. Wingnut is in Mich. Bit of a drive to test a boat I think.
 
wingnut
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04/01/2019 06:09AM
I sent a message to Arcola about his solo. Looking forward to seeing the specs on his boat. What are the specs on your pearl Jim. It seems every one who builds canoes is trying to make a lighter boat. That's why I'm trying to stay close to 15' and keep the boat as sleek as possible, lowering the seat to gain stability. My plan is to strip it with 3/16" strips covered with 4 oz S glass and use Laminated cedar in place of traditional Ash gunnels, thwarts and even the seat frame. I was really shocked on my last build on a 16 footer, when before Installing the ash gunnels I weighed them at 15# Shaped but not trimmed to length. So It looks like a good opportunity to shave some weight in that area. My goal in to have a finished weight of 35#. 4 oz S glass alone would be too light for a tripper But I'd be willing to chance it for a day paddler. My 1/4" thick 6oz E glass boats seem rock solid to me and I saw a comparison of S glass to carbon fiber where the S glass looked very Impressive.
 
1JimD
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04/01/2019 07:52AM
Arcola . Yes, I see Dan is having a paddle in April at Nokomis, I'll see !

Wingnut. Yes on the S-glass, in and out ! I know Ash trim adds a Lot of weight, but it's durable, It can easily add 10 - 15# to a solo !
I'll try and stop by the shop and get dimensions of Pearl. It is a symmetrical hull, with some flare on the ends, turning to tumblehome, in the middle. It will lift over waves, instead of cutting through. No rocker, but the stems are rounded. Again, it is a 15'11" hull as I built it. Originally it was designed at 15'6". I stretched it, as I hate to cut 16" strips, and throw the pieces away, when they can be a boat !





A link to my build thread. Pearl
 
1JimD
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04/01/2019 04:18PM
Dug out the forms for Pearl.
11" deep. 26 1/2" at the shear, and 29" at the bilge.




Jim
 
wingnut
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04/01/2019 06:36PM
Thanks for the specs on the Pearl, Jim but It's probably not the boat I'm looking for. It does look like a sleek craft but I'd like to downsize it a bit more on length, width and add some rocker. Arcolas boat sounds Interesting the way he took an already narrow boat and stretched It. What was your Impression for stability and ease of paddling when you paddled It? I'm guessing the weight ratings for the 3 and 4 " waterline went up as the boat was stretched. That would be a good thing for me because my weight alone would be at or slightly over the recommended weight ratings for the Kestrel and vagabond.
 
tumblehome
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04/02/2019 09:57AM
Wingnut, use white cedar instead of red cedar to shave ounces off the boat. It's generally lighter in weight. Certainly more flexible.

Of course you need to hand pick your boards since weight varies.
Laminated cedar will work for the gunwales but there are two downsides. 1. you will ding the heck out of them with general use and they won't last too long. Two, you will have a queazy feeling when you see your canoe flex under stress such as on top of a car. There is something to be said about ash gunwales. They really help stiffen and strengthen the boat.

Just make them as thin as you can feel comfortable getting away with.

Use only one layer of epoxy on the inside and squeegie off the extra. You will have a textured finish but it will easily save 2 pounds or more.

You might get away with using 3/16" thick strips as opposed to the usual 1/4".

But...as you lose the weight here and there you will lose strength here and there. It's all a trade.

-T
 
1JimD
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04/02/2019 10:12AM
Wing nut ! I wouldn't hesitate on Arcola's canoe !
It is a fine design !

My Pearl leans more towards tripping, and a larger paddler.

Jim
 
sedges
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04/02/2019 01:50PM
I have started using cedar for gunnels. I have some clear red cedar boards left over from my busy building days. I epoxy the cedar to the hull. The outwale is pared down a bunch. I still have a 3/4 inwale because I still hang my seats. To add strength I cap that with 1/8th inch of fine grained, quarter-sawn yellow pine. Its plenty strong enough to hang seats from and is hard enough to take a beating on the racks.


It will not take the entire curve of the gunnel. The stock is 1 1/2 inches wide. I run it from the stem toward the middle as far as it will go without a struggle and let it run out. I fill in the center section with a triangular piece carefully cut to fit.
 
1JimD
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04/02/2019 06:01PM
Sedges ! I'm hard on my gunnels, and so I use Ash ! Laminting, two different woods is a good idea, I may try that !

Jim
 
sedges
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04/02/2019 08:28PM
I have been using dense grain structural grade yellow pine on my boats since the beginning in mid 1980s. Its usually shortleaf pine or very old loblolly. Strength-wise its equal to oak or ash. Its very resinous and stands up to abrasion pretty good, especially if quarter-sawn. Its used down here in GA for flooring pretty often. It doesn't seem to have the black mildew issues that ash gets. Cheap, too. The last I got, its been a decade or more, was perfectly straight grain 20' 2x8 for about $28.00. Probably a little more now.

The cedar with the cap is stiffer than regular ash gunnels. The only time I screw on gunnels any more is on a royalex boat. Saves some weight in bronze, too.

The cap is tricky as it won't take the vertical AND horizontal bend. I managed to clamp it down flat in one piece on an 18'+ boat, but it was a struggle with the epoxy going off. Shorter boats require three pieces and that was a lot easier to do.

The dense-grain structural grade is hard to find. Mill works that make specialty moulding know about it even if they don't have it on hand.
 
wingnut
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04/03/2019 06:41AM
Arcolas boat could be the one I've been looking for. My thanks goes out to Arcola for sharing. I've had this in my head for a couple years ever since seeing a pic of a Vagabond for sale when I had one of those stop and stare moments. Had the same thing happen seeing a pic of a Bruce Kunze Wabash valley Merlin. Beautiful looking boats IMO. Many good Ideas for shaving weight and laminating in two directions is one I had not considered. I like the looks of ash on a cedar stripped boat and had thought of laminating an ash strip on the outside and inside for looks and better wear. Capping the top I think is a great idea. Taking care of the joint fitting problem when the inner and outer come together to look like one piece. A strip on top should add strength from the grain running horizontal instead of vertical also.
 
Grizzlyman
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04/06/2019 09:50PM
sedges: "I have started using cedar for gunnels. I have some clear red cedar boards left over from my busy building days. I epoxy the cedar to the hull. The outwale is pared down a bunch. I still have a 3/4 inwale because I still hang my seats. To add strength I cap that with 1/8th inch of fine grained, quarter-sawn yellow pine. Its plenty strong enough to hang seats from and is hard enough to take a beating on the racks.



It will not take the entire curve of the gunnel. The stock is 1 1/2 inches wide. I run it from the stem toward the middle as far as it will go without a struggle and let it run out. I fill in the center section with a triangular piece carefully cut to fit."


Very cool and interesting sedges. curious- what's the largest boat you've done this with? Do you think this method would work on a 17/18 fter?
 
sedges
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04/06/2019 11:33PM
Yes, the first attempt at this was on a 18'2"x39"(35"LWL) boat I call the Yonah. As I said above, I managed to get the cap on in one piece. It did not want to bend in two direction at all. It was a huge struggle that I will not repeat. It works great to use two or three pieces to create the cap.

It is essentially a box beam and is very stiff and strong. Pretty, too with the dark cedar and light pine.
 
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