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LittoralZone
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01/23/2021 08:23AM  
Planning a BWCAW trip this year with a couple friends and they can only do 7 days, and I'm thinking of doing 14 or more days. I'm thinking we can enter on 1 permit, trip together, loop back to the entry/exit lake (or 1 portage short) and they can head out, and I'll continue on my trip solo.

On the recreation.gov site it states under the BWCAW Quota Permit Requirements - "Permit holder must stay with group for the duration of the trip, permit is void if permit holder exits before group."

So, as long as I (the permit holder) stays in the park we're ok if they leave and I stay? Is this thinking correct or would we need 2 permits? Anyone have experience with this sort of trip planning? I do know in the Q we would need 2 permits.

Thanks for any and all advice,
LT
 
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01/23/2021 08:37AM  
It would make sense to me that you are right, but I am not sure if they would be sticklers about you being with them for that exit portage?
thegildedgopher
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01/23/2021 08:50AM  
I think following the letter of the law would mean staying with the group all the way back for the EP. otherwise If they get stopped on that last bit they don’t have a permit with a valid group leader present.
schweady
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01/23/2021 08:55AM  
On one trip, as we exited, we were checked at the parking lot, an area outside the wilderness boundary. The FS official meeting us would not dismiss the group until she saw the permit and spoke with the group leader identified on that permit (me). We were all leaving that day, but looking back at it now, I got the feeling that if I were to assume that I could re-enter on that same permit, she would have had a differing opinion on the matter.
snakecharmer
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01/23/2021 09:28AM  
Just be sure that one of those exiting are listed on the permit as an alternate group leader and has a copy of the permit with them. That's my understanding...that groups can split up for travel/fishing, just need to camp together.
billconner
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01/23/2021 09:31AM  
I believe it is acceptable. Not sure the leader has to return to EP. Ive never used it but I think permits have a tear off part so people on same permit can daytrip separately. I would think that is all that is needed. Indeed the EP parking area and perhaps some of the portage to the landing and in a few cases the first part of paddling is outside the BWCAW. If your in leader paddled back to say Moose Lake landing, he or she would have "left the wilderness" and oermit would be invalid.

The folks leaving could also take a day permit and fill it out on last day. I do that coming from Q through PP to be permitted on Moose.
bottomtothetap
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01/23/2021 10:41AM  
snakecharmer: "Just be sure that one of those exiting are listed on the permit as an alternate group leader and has a copy of the permit with them. That's my understanding...that groups can split up for travel/fishing, just need to camp together."

My understanding was that groups can indeed split up but each "split" does not have to include a leader or alternate. It's just that each canoe should have at least a stub of the permit showing that a leader or alternate somewhere does have a full permit. We've had four canoes each go different directions at once on day trips or fishing--not enough "leaders" to go around for each canoe to have a leader or alternate.

This would seem to make the OP's plan just fine even if those exiting were not being accompanied on their exit by a leader or alternate. They should just have that stub.
adam
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01/24/2021 07:58AM  
bottomtothetap: "snakecharmer: "Just be sure that one of those exiting are listed on the permit as an alternate group leader and has a copy of the permit with them. That's my understanding...that groups can split up for travel/fishing, just need to camp together."


My understanding was that groups can indeed split up but each "split" does not have to include a leader or alternate. It's just that each canoe should have at least a stub of the permit showing that a leader or alternate somewhere does have a full permit. We've had four canoes each go different directions at once on day trips or fishing--not enough "leaders" to go around for each canoe to have a leader or alternate.


This would seem to make the OP's plan just fine even if those exiting were not being accompanied on their exit by a leader or alternate. They should just have that stub. "


Groups need to stay together while in the wilderness. You can't enter with a group of 8 and have 4 go one way and 4 go another. Likewise, you can't have two different groups of 4 go into the wilderness and then meet up and camp with each other.

Call the forest service if you want an official ruling. The general consensus is part of the group can leave early as long as it is not the leader, and they can get out in 1 day.

bottomtothetap
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01/24/2021 10:50AM  
adam: "bottomtothetap: "snakecharmer: "Just be sure that one of those exiting are listed on the permit as an alternate group leader and has a copy of the permit with them. That's my understanding...that groups can split up for travel/fishing, just need to camp together."



My understanding was that groups can indeed split up but each "split" does not have to include a leader or alternate. It's just that each canoe should have at least a stub of the permit showing that a leader or alternate somewhere does have a full permit. We've had four canoes each go different directions at once on day trips or fishing--not enough "leaders" to go around for each canoe to have a leader or alternate.



This would seem to make the OP's plan just fine even if those exiting were not being accompanied on their exit by a leader or alternate. They should just have that stub. "



Groups need to stay together while in the wilderness. You can't enter with a group of 8 and have 4 go one way and 4 go another. Likewise, you can have two different groups of 4 go into the wilderness and then meet up and camp with each other.


Call the forest service if you want an official ruling. The general consensus is part of the group can leave early as long as it is not the leader, and they can get out in 1 day.


"


Oh boy, if groups need to stay together while in the wilderness, we've been doing it wrong quite often. For example, on a recent group that I was leader--permit was in my name--we had four canoes and we came in from Ima to camp on Jordon. The next day, two of the guys wanted to check out the fishing on Three Eagle Lake, while I was content to stay on Jordon to go after some northerns in the narrows from Ima, so two of us--the "alternate" and me--did that (I did get a 33-incher!). The rest of our group didn't fish much so they decided to go look at Cattyman Falls but two of them had already seen it on a previous trip so they decided to just stay at camp and play cards (they're loss--the fishing was good!).

So there we were: all different directions and not even on the same lakes. We made sure that each canoe had one of the tear-off stubs so in case we were checked by the Forest Service, we could show proof of permit. In fact, I thought--and have been instructed so by outfitters--that these situations are exactly what those stubs are for. If not, I stand corrected!
billconner
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01/24/2021 11:32AM  
Bottom - you're fine. Maybe I misunderstood Adam but you have to all stay at same campsite, but during days can all split up. 4 could go off in canoes, four hike separately, and one stay in camp. Not sure there are that many tabs but rules permit that. I think you get one tab to tear off per canoe in your group.
andym
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01/24/2021 01:04PM  
The stubs are there so each canoe can have one and have some ability to split up during days. That is how the FS rangers have explained them to us. Not everyone wants to do the same fishing or day trips from base camp. We’ve used that for a day trip being for some of the people to leave. That seems to be the logical extension of the permit being valid until the leader exits. Just remember that it doesn’t allow you to camp separately and so I agree that the exit must be doable in one day.
LittoralZone
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01/24/2021 02:23PM  
Thanks y'all for the replies. I will clarify with a Ranger.

Thanks again,
LT
adam
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01/24/2021 05:57PM  
Sorry for the confusion, yes of course during the day you can do whatever you want. But you can't have a group enter under one permit and then camp on different sites (and go on different routes).

It is a good idea to have copies of the permit with each member or canoe to make sure that if they are checked that they have it.

 
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