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billconner
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01/23/2021 09:41AM  
Being on edge of Adirondacks, I'm tripping here some - canoe, on foot, maybe on snowshoes. The rules say no tents in lean-tos, and no tarps or plastic coverings - which clearly is done by blue tarps left.

Sleep in open lean-to or set up tent 150' or further away? I've always felt the critter protection of tents was more psychology than fact (insects exception) but psychology counts. In freezing and sub zero temps, different issues arise, though i have doubted a plain modern tent adds much warmth.

I've wondered uf a bivvy is considered a tent, or is it allowed.

Thoughts?
 
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01/23/2021 12:37PM  
Only thing I know of Adirondack lean-tos is hearsay concerning the vermin counts. They do sound familiar to trail-shelters in the Kettle Moraines and other places I have packed into in the mid-west. Personally I'll take a shelter and stay at the limits allowed. I do see hammock users setup inside local shelters. I think a bivy would be fine, but doesn't hurt to ask.

butthead
 
paddler1953
member (46)member
 
01/23/2021 01:25PM  
The use of a bivy sack is allowed in all NYS shelters (AKA: lean-tos) be they in the Adirondacks, Catskills or anywhere else in the state. The reasoning behind not allowing tents in lean-tos was explained to me as this: when you set up a tent in a lean-to, you're potentially taking shelter away from someone who is depending on the lean-to space for sleeping. Of course, I don't think anyone should ever "depend" on having a spot in a lean-to but if you fill them with a tent(s), there's no room left at the inn for latecomers. Hope that makes sense as I'm not sure I'm explaining it properly.

That's all for now. Take care and until next time...be well.

snapper





 
billconner
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01/23/2021 03:08PM  
it does make sense. Not sure if a bivvy adds and thermal benefit but seems possible. Oddly i think the no tent was enforced where shelter was reserved by me at a state park.

As far as vermin, I've heard that but the shelters I've seen around this corner seem very rarely used, and not infested.
 
Swampturtle
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01/24/2021 09:39AM  
paddler1953: "The use of a bivy sack is allowed in all NYS shelters (AKA: lean-tos) be they in the Adirondacks, Catskills or anywhere else in the state. The reasoning behind not allowing tents in lean-tos was explained to me as this: when you set up a tent in a lean-to, you're potentially taking shelter away from someone who is depending on the lean-to space for sleeping. Of course, I don't think anyone should ever "depend" on having a spot in a lean-to but if you fill them with a tent(s), there's no room left at the inn for latecomers. Hope that makes sense as I'm not sure I'm explaining it properly.


That's all for now. Take care and until next time...be well.


snapper
"


This is correct. You can use a bivy for the reasons stated, a bivy may raise the R value a few degrees depending on the make/style. Mine has helped me with the wind chill or when the temps dropped. Yes, the lean-to's with higher traffic may tend to have more critters (mice, {ants & flies in Summer}).

When I started out tripping, even though I carried a tent, I valued a lean-to for shelter especially when it would rain for a week or more. After more than a few incidents of mice running over my face or biting at my tears in the middle of a sleepless night, I shied away from them as a useful destination. Why do the smallest things make the greatest noise in the dark? Now, years later, my trips may be a blend of visiting both regular campsites & lean-tos if available.

I value the less traveled lean-to's that are not able to be accessed by hikers as some of their perches are truly magnificent. I have only encountered visitors thru hiking or asking to use the thunderbox. I have never had someone asking to share a lean-to I was already occupying. In the past, my thinking was if someone was in need, I would share...now that we are dealing with a pandemic, not so much..unless it was an emergency and since I always have a tent, I might just go elsewhere.

This site has a decent listing of lean-to's in NY.
what was that?
 
Swampturtle
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01/24/2021 10:20AM  
The site I had listed for lean tos was corrupted so I deleted it, holy cow. Let me see if I can find the site again.
 
Swampturtle
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01/24/2021 10:39AM  
Swampturtle: "The site I had listed for lean tos was corrupted so I deleted it, holy cow. Let me see if I can find the site again. "

Weird stuff attached to what was a nice interactive site for lean to's, so I won't share it. Here is another source.

There are pictures, locations & a lively discussion on this site:

ADK forum
 
billconner
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01/24/2021 11:25AM  
Thanks! It seems solo in winter with rarely used lean-tos that a bivy might be a good choice.

The maps that the DEC publishes are pretty good at indicating lean-tos, and on line as pdfs. And there are a lot.
 
ockycamper
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01/24/2021 02:30PM  
I have done sections one and two of the Northern Forest Canoe Trail several times and stayed at sites with lean to's. We brought hammocks to sleep in and used the lean to in place of a tarp to keep our gear, cook in and sit in when eating. Really liked them. Never thought about putting a tent or hammock in the lean to. We have rain flys on our hammocks and tents all ready. Putting them in the lean to would be redundant.
 
R1verrunner
member (10)member
 
01/24/2021 04:08PM  
There is some data that tents do give some advantage/protection from large predator attacks.

It is a slim barrier but laying out in the open does seem to embolden predatory black bears and others.

Do predators attack people in tents yes.

But there are plenty of cases of where people sleeping out in the open have been attack.

If one looks at the way a predatory black bear attacks laying out in the open gives them a better chance to prey test.

Then someone laying in a tent.

I have slept in the open, leans , tents snow caves and other places.

I prefer a modern tent.
 
Swampturtle
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01/25/2021 06:46AM  
billconner: "Thanks! It seems solo in winter with rarely used lean-tos that a bivy might be a good choice.


The maps that the DEC publishes are pretty good at indicating lean-tos, and on line as pdfs. And there are a lot. "


They are decent, but I feel they are not as updated as I'd like in a timely manner as I know of newer lean tos not listed.

A breathable style bivy is preferred as otherwise you end up with lots of moisture around you.

Not supposed to cook in a lean to either...but people do it.

I call shenanigans on black bears attacking people out here in the open for whatever reason, what is this thread about? Enjoy your safe snow cave, sounds like a den to me.
 
billconner
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01/25/2021 09:44AM  
There is the issue of tenting and DEC rules saying at least 150' from water, lean-tos (which are usually right on the water if any), and trails. Silent on hanging near (or in) lean-tos, best I can tell.

I suspect winter where there is little use, the 150 is not often enforced.

Was looking at diy tyvek bivys, and agree on venting moisture.

Will probably take tent but try to sleep in lean with a thin blanket over my head, like I do in tent, and assume (wish?) no wildlife. Perhaps hang food a ways from lean-to.
 
ockycamper
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01/25/2021 10:49AM  
I think you are over thinking this one. We have canoed/hiked in and stayed in lean twos from Old Forge NY all the way into Saranac River. Some lean tos were first come first serve, others you could reserve. Most people we met just put their sleeping bags and mats in the lean to and slept in there. We brought hammocks and used the lean tos to cook in and store our gear.

Practice leave no trace and all is good.

We kept the food in bear vaults and put trash back in the bear vaults when done with the food so critters were not an issue.

 
Swampturtle
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01/25/2021 06:59PM  
billconner: "There is the issue of tenting and DEC rules saying at least 150' from water, lean-tos (which are usually right on the water if any), and trails. Silent on hanging near (or in) lean-tos, best I can tell.


I suspect winter where there is little use, the 150 is not often enforced.


Was looking at diy tyvek bivys, and agree on venting moisture.


Will probably take tent but try to sleep in lean with a thin blanket over my head, like I do in tent, and assume (wish?) no wildlife. Perhaps hang food a ways from lean-to."


The 150' rule is fairly new compared to how long these sites have been in use. As they are retiring campsites that are over used, they are starting to move new campsites farther back into the woods and applying the rule. The existing campsites were "grandfathered in" & like you mentioned right on the water. Around the same time, Lean-to's weren't going to be replaced once they fell into disrepair due to budget cuts. There was an outcry & teams of volunteers have come together to be the stewards in tandem with the State.

ADK Lean-to info

Natural atlas
 
01/25/2021 07:02PM  
In general the ADK lean tos are also pretty small and can't fit a full tent in them. BIVYs are really no larger than a normal bag and just fine. That said, the Lean tos are hard wood so you may consider setting up a tent in the woods. Additionally, most trails warenting a Lean to are highly traveled so the tent off the trail may not improve much at all.

All this said, most of the ADKs 100Ft off a trail is extremely primative and you will have it to yourself.
 
billconner
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01/26/2021 05:54AM  
A lot of variation area to area I suspect. My recent experience has been at Wolf Lake Forest Preserve and Five Ponds Wilderness. The log books in the lean-tos I stopped at suggest a visitor every other week. All not 25' or so from water.

Very different from Ice Age Trail at Kettle Moraine North - heavily used.

 
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