Worst since 1961.Colorado-Alaska-Minnesota Dead trees coming

It’s important for campers to know and understand the spruce budworm outbreak as it is plainly visible everywhere now and substantially increases fire danger and intensity.

You will see swaths of dead balsam (Christmas trees) trees along the north shore and on your way to Ely, and while you camp. I’ve seen dying balsams from Quetico to northern Michigan.

I live on 25 acres with many thousands of dead balsams trees. I was hit hard but the outbreak is all about finished now at my place.
These is an upside to all of this though. Balsams are generally short lived, decompose quickly, and are fast growing.

The change we see in the forest is just a snapshot of its history and soon evidence of the outbreak will be gone. New growth, new trees, new species will take the place of the densely populated balsams and hopefully provide a more diverse forest.

Deer are one of the largest invasive species to the boreal forest up here. They were once very uncommon, rarely seen and had no impact on the forest. Today as we know, are so common place we don’t even give them a second look. They eat ALL the new white pine and cedar seedlings, leaving none to regenerate.

It still don’’t understand why the deer hunters want more deer and the DNR does what it can to grow the heard. Deer have decimated our forests more than humans. I’ve observed this first-hand on my 25 acre parcel.
Tom

Statement from the linked article- "as state and federal agencies, along with conservationists, are working to mitigate the issue"

What a typical stupid statement. Loggers and mills might be taking advantage of the current situation in a small way to salvage some of the timber, but government and conservationists aren't mitigating a dang thing. Mother nature will do her thing here and the rest of us have little say.

Much of it is not large enough size to log commercially.

tumblehome: "It’s important for campers to know and understand the spruce budworm outbreak as it is plainly visible everywhere now and substantially increases fire danger and intensity.


You will see swaths of dead balsam (Christmas trees) trees along the north shore and on your way to Ely, and while you camp. I’ve seen dying balsams from Quetico to northern Michigan.


I live on 25 acres with many thousands of dead balsams trees. I was hit hard but the outbreak is all about finished now at my place.
These is an upside to all of this though. Balsams are generally short lived, decompose quickly, and are fast growing.


The change we see in the forest is just a snapshot of its history and soon evidence of the outbreak will be gone. New growth, new trees, new species will take the place of the densely populated balsams and hopefully provide a more diverse forest.


Deer are one of the largest invasive species to the boreal forest up here. They were once very uncommon, rarely seen and had no impact on the forest. Today as we know, are so common place we don’t even give them a second look. They eat ALL the new white pine and cedar seedlings, leaving none to regenerate.


It still don’’t understand why the deer hunters want more deer and the DNR does what it can to grow the heard. Deer have decimated our forests more than humans. I’ve observed this first-hand on my 25 acre parcel.
Tom"

Well said! Thank you! Not to mention brain worm in moose from Whitetails.

The trees were easy to spot at our site on Horseshoe Lake.

woodsandwater: "

tumblehome: "It’s important for campers to know and understand the spruce budworm outbreak as it is plainly visible everywhere now and substantially increases fire danger and intensity.



You will see swaths of dead balsam (Christmas trees) trees along the north shore and on your way to Ely, and while you camp. I’ve seen dying balsams from Quetico to northern Michigan.



I live on 25 acres with many thousands of dead balsams trees. I was hit hard but the outbreak is all about finished now at my place.
These is an upside to all of this though. Balsams are generally short lived, decompose quickly, and are fast growing.



The change we see in the forest is just a snapshot of its history and soon evidence of the outbreak will be gone. New growth, new trees, new species will take the place of the densely populated balsams and hopefully provide a more diverse forest.



Deer are one of the largest invasive species to the boreal forest up here. They were once very uncommon, rarely seen and had no impact on the forest. Today as we know, are so common place we don’t even give them a second look. They eat ALL the new white pine and cedar seedlings, leaving none to regenerate.



It still don’’t understand why the deer hunters want more deer and the DNR does what it can to grow the heard. Deer have decimated our forests more than humans. I’ve observed this first-hand on my 25 acre parcel.
Tom"

Well said! Thank you! Not to mention brain worm in moose from Whitetails."

Its been common to say deer are invasive species and much of the area, but were they really. The MN DNR has a book written covering from 1860-early 1900's. In 1895 its is documented in writing back than a individual at that time said its was very common for locals and native Americans to sell the abundant meat of deer and moose in the streets of Ely, even though it was illegal but nobody really enforced it. They were scared to enforce it for there was only like one game warden in that area and feared for his life if he did.
Also around 1890 in Walker, by leech. I believe it was a priest wrote that the native Americans that year killed around 200 deer and many moose for they were very abundant.

Also in the early 1900's a forester-logger by Ely was asked why you didn't replant white pine as you cut them. Answer it would cut into our time and profit margin(somethings have not changed).

It does sound like the extreme northeast-gunflint area lacked deer, except a rare one along lake superior.
I also wonder how did the deer if they were not present get so abundant over such a wide area in such a short time. I at least believe they were present in good numbers by Walker. Remember natural and fires set by Indians created much deer-moose habitat.
Yes the book talks about caribou trails in the swamps around 1880 north of Mille lacs.
Also deer almost became extinct in the TC area from over hunting in the late 1800's.

Its strange though and info lacking what the wolf population was like?

I know this is contrary to what people are saying but the documented cases way back than are hard to dismiss.

Northland news
EAGLES NEST — After Terry Anderson bought an undeveloped parcel of forestland in northeast Minnesota's Eagles Nest Township two decades ago, it didn’t take long to pick his building spot: a flat area midway up a hillside with a view of a little, pristine lake that looks like it belongs in the nearby Boundary Waters.

“There was this beautiful thicket of balsam fir. It looked like a Christmas tree farm, so that’s where I built,” said Anderson, who lives in his off-grid, no plumbing one-room cabin in all but the coldest months.

Over the last few years, Anderson’s enthusiasm for his balsam firs has been tempered by an unwelcome visitor. The eastern spruce budworm — a native insect that feasts on the aromatic, fast-growing, and short-lived conifers — has exploded throughout much of northeast Minnesota.
In the years since the outbreak started, Anderson’s firs have been shedding needles and dying at an alarming rate.
“At first, it was gradual,” he recalled. “You would notice the trees would get new, bright green buds in the spring. Then at a certain point they would all shrivel up and turn brown.” At mid-summer, he watched as the needle-eating caterpillars morphed into moths, forming dense clouds amid the defoliated treetops of his dying balsams.

In August 2021, a lightning strike ignited a wildfire about 50 miles away, near the community of Isabella. The Greenwood Fire consumed about 27,000 acres, burned down 14 buildings and took six weeks to extinguish. The ferocity of the inferno was attributed to both severe drought and large stands of extremely flammable dead and dying balsam fir.

For Anderson, the scale of destruction drove home the point: He needed to get more of the dead trees off his land.

Since then, he has lost count of how many he’s felled. “If you include the little spindly ones, like eight feet tall, probably hundreds and hundreds,” he said. “I took down one stand near the lake that was about 50 feet by 50 feet. It was pure balsam.”

He is hardly alone in this Sisyphean struggle.
According to the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources annual Forest Health Report, the current spruce budworm outbreak is the worst Minnesota has experienced since 1961.

Over the past four years, it has impacted over 2,000 square miles — or roughly 1.3 million acres — mainly in northeast Minnesota. That is roughly the equivalent of the surface area of Upper and Lower Red Lake, Mille Lacs, and Leech Lake combined. Last year alone, an estimated 712,000 acres were defoliated by the budworm.

Growing forest fire risk
The resulting death of balsam fir (and, to a lesser degree, white spruce) has many in the region worried about growing wildfire risk.

Last year, the Lessard Sams Outdoor Heritage Council doled out $900,000 to the DNR to diversify and regenerate budworm-impacted lands. In December, it recommended that the Legislature provide a $3.5 million grant to the nonprofit Nature Conservancy, which is spearheading planting and clearing programs to promote forest health across northern Minnesota.

On the north side of Hwy 1 and just east of the Knotted Pine bar in Isabella is an old airstrip a few thousand feet long. When I worked at the Isabella Work Station the older salty foresters told me the Superior NF used this airstrip to spray for Spruce Budworms in the 1950's, I remember them telling me that Ford Tri Motors were used. This airstrip is still there but it is getting pretty grown in now.

tumblehome

It still don’’t understand why the deer hunters want more deer and the DNR does what it can to grow the heard. Deer have decimated our forests more than humans. I’ve observed this first-hand on my 25 acre parcel.
Tom"

Agreed Tumblehome.

There are too many of those Timber Rats running around the woods of Minnesota.

It could be that a warming climate is allowing deer to spread to areas further north because of more forage and conditions. Without predators they will overpopulate.

Moonpath: "It could be that a warming climate is allowing deer to spread to areas further north because of more forage and conditions. Without predators they will overpopulate."

Yes mild winters are beneficial to deer but right now deer populations across most of northeast Minnesota are lower than almost all years since 1960.
Last year MN DNR wildlife said around the Isabella area deer population is only 1-2 deer per sq.mile and even less in the BWCA. Almost absent.

I remember in 1969 deer were extremely abundant in ELY area-to international falls.
For a deer hunter it was the best in Minnesota with success as high as 80%. That same time period I went camping in the winter up by knife lake, deer were everywhere. The winter of 1969 we had huge amounts of snow and the next decade were hard winters and deer declined.

Talking about White Pine, I wish it would have been allowed to aerial seed white pine seeds over the pagmi(sp) fire and now the Greenwood fire. Deer are so low in those areas now. Probably 100-year lows if you look at the records.
Not an expert on success of white pine seeding by aerial drops?
When white pine logging took place, most operations left zero seed trees.
I know a area even by Longville now a couple of white pines were spared. This past few years quite a few new trees are coming up.
Also I have seen large clear cuttings now when trees do come back it is 100% aspen and crowding out oaks and other trees once there.

Before, you could not see the lake, from my cabin.... 40 dead trees later, it's wide open.

Pinetree: "

Moonpath: "

Talking about White Pine, I wish it would have been allowed to aerial seed white pine seeds over the pagmi(sp) fire and now the Greenwood fire. Deer are so low in those areas now. Probably 100-year lows if you look at the records.

Oh man, the forest is thriving in those burn zones. I spend time in the Pagami Creek fire area and visit other burn areas in the BWCA annually. I can say that the forest is coming back in a most amazing way. Young trees of all species. Jack pine, cedar, white pine, birch, and aspen. Nature is making a new beautiful forest.
Exciting!
Tom

tumblehome: "

Pinetree: "

Moonpath: "


Talking about White Pine, I wish it would have been allowed to aerial seed white pine seeds over the pagmi(sp) fire and now the Greenwood fire. Deer are so low in those areas now. Probably 100-year lows if you look at the records.

Oh man, the forest is thriving in those burn zones. I spend time in the Pagami Creek fire area and visit other burn areas in the BWCA annually. I can say that the forest is coming back in a most amazing way. Young trees of all species. Jack pine, cedar, white pine, birch, and aspen. Nature is making a new beautiful forest.
Exciting!
Tom

"

I hope the white pine come back, I know the jack pine is. They talked about aerial seeding of white pine seeds.

BeaV: "Statement from the linked article- "as state and federal agencies, along with conservationists, are working to mitigate the issue"


What a typical stupid statement. Loggers and mills might be taking advantage of the current situation in a small way to salvage some of the timber, but government and conservationists aren't mitigating a dang thing. Mother nature will do her thing here and the rest of us have little say."

Agree 100%. Climates and Ecosystems are in a constant state of change. There is no such thing as normal, only averages.

Pinetree:”Its been common to say deer are invasive species and much of the area, but were they really. The MN DNR has a book written covering from 1860-early 1900's. In 1895 its is documented in writing back than a individual at that time said its was very common for locals and native Americans to sell the abundant meat of deer and moose in the streets of Ely, even though it was illegal but nobody really enforced it. They were scared to enforce it for there was only like one game warden in that area and feared for his life if he did."

Please provide the title of the referenced book. The assertion is contradicted by everything I have read on the subject, including the DNR’s own website:

“At the time of European settlement, white-tailed deer in Minnesota existed throughout the wooded river valleys and woodlands of central and southern Minnesota.
“In northern Minnesota, where the forest habitat was much different than it is today, deer were absent or rare. Moose and woodland caribou were the most abundant members of the deer family.
“ As European settlement cleared forests for lumber and agriculture, deer habitat quality improved through the creation of new openings.”

Natural history of deer in Minnesota

gravelroad: "

Pinetree:”Its been common to say deer are invasive species and much of the area, but were they really. The MN DNR has a book written covering from 1860-early 1900's. In 1895 its is documented in writing back than a individual at that time said its was very common for locals and native Americans to sell the abundant meat of deer and moose in the streets of Ely, even though it was illegal but nobody really enforced it. They were scared to enforce it for there was only like one game warden in that area and feared for his life if he did."

Please provide the title of the referenced book. The assertion is contradicted by everything I have read on the subject, including the DNR’s own website:


“At the time of European settlement, white-tailed deer in Minnesota existed throughout the wooded river valleys and woodlands of central and southern Minnesota.
“In northern Minnesota, where the forest habitat was much different than it is today, deer were absent or rare. Moose and woodland caribou were the most abundant members of the deer family.
“ As European settlement cleared forests for lumber and agriculture, deer habitat quality improved through the creation of new openings.”


Natural history of deer in Minnesota "

I agree with you, that was what I heard in the past, but, than I also started looking at how fast deer came real abundant almost instantly when logging started. Almost impossible to increase and spread over the entire northern part of state so fast. Remember also natures forest fires were uncontrolled than and Native Americans lit fires to drive animals and also create habitat.
It just adds puzzlement to what was the real truth. I think there was spots deer became abundant when fires created openings? Who knows-not much written info pre-1900.

Book: The use and Conservation of Minnesota Wildlife 1850-1900 by Evadine Swanson First Printing 2007. by Mn DNR
"In 1891 near Ely the Game Warden could see no use for one man risking his life in the woods arresting Indians and others who kill moose and deer to white people when the town people won't stop it. He reported that game was so plentiful around Ely, officials saw no need for protection. People were seen selling meat on the streets. Venison sold like 8-9 cents a pound".

J.A. Gillian a Missionary at leech lake in the 1890's observed at Leech and Cass lake 1500 deer and 45 Moose were harvested. Park Rapids had 600 deer marketed in 1893.

It talks about caribou trails in the bogs north of Mille lacs and lot of moose shot down there.
"Even in 1860 the northern woods was not a a pure stand of Pine". Now lot of teh Pine was already removed by 1880's in much of the Northwoods and lot of forest fires than">
Now that does leave a 10 year gap between documented deer sold and logging-fires?

Now Ontario is a big providence so where present-
Ontario gov. "Historical Presence: Deer populations have existed in Ontario for thousands of years, primarily consisting of white-tailed deer.
Decline in Numbers: In the late 1800s, overhunting and habitat loss led to a significant decline in deer populations".

Such a neat topic and one I have really become passionate about. On the spruce budworm side of things, as others have said. It's a cycle. We have a lot of balsam fir stemming back from the big blowdowns in the past decades. A big fire is coming for us eventually. Hopefully some of the management plans can help mitigate the risk so we never have to experience a town-destroying fire like California has had the past few years. Our forest makeup is different, but Pagami, Ham Lake, and Greenwood gave glimpses into what fire can be capable of here.

On the deer side of things, I can't help roll my eyes. The amount of constant ire here in Ely is rediculous. It's usually directed at how "out of control" the wolf population is with stories about how the big bad wolf stole their pets or murdered all of the deer. On my side of things, I just want to grow white pines and cedars while taking Boundary Waters Canoe trips where I can encounter wild Caribou. Is that too much to ask? Haha. Seriously though, there are quite a few things that the DNR still does that make zero scientific sense: they are only done to please users that spend money. That's important of course, our current political climate is a good reminder that conservation doesn't fund itself. But there are plenty of current programs from the DNR and others that demonstrate how the era of "carry smallmouth in by bucket" is not as far gone as it seems. Stocking rainbows and brown trout in streams.... Stocking salmon in superior.... brook trout in BWCAW lakes.... Keeping deer populations quite high in parts of the state (especially where predators are not)..... Live bait still being legal when the bait species is invasive.... Pheasants.... And on and on!

Stocking brook trout in the BWCA and is only a handful of lakes. In reality humans are the biggest exotic in northern Minnesota, how far back do you go. At one time no humans were present at the time of the glacial ice age.
Yes aerial drops of smallmouth in the 1940's has raised havoc, especially on lake trout.
Humans are the biggest factor in fish populations and yea climate change will be the ultimate game changer and moose will probably disappear entirely.
So do we stop fishing, the answer is no. Over time things change and nature really never is in balance. But we have to try to preserve it to the best of nature and I guess humans better shape up.
The White pine by the BWCA and superior when logged there was zero attempt at the time of the pine logging area to replant or leave any seed trees. Finally in the mid 1900's they planted red pine in plantations but that is so unnatural in itself.

Right now from Mille lacs north deer populations are the lowest in 70 years at least.
Isabella lake and BWCA is like 1-2 deer per sq mile as of 2024 MN DNR report. They are not suppressing white pine or cedar in that area now.

I truly like moderation, and right now deer are getting blamed for everything and more blame could be put on human manipulation of the forests. I have seen natural stands of conifer replaced after cutting with thick aspen and white pine just doesn't grow in too shaded of condition.

Fires use to control much of our problems, but now people live everywhere. Fires once were quite frequent and large in the BWCA area in the 1800's. Great for pine growth getting rid of competition.

They said when during the big logging era the pine forest are so huge there will be pine forever, just like the buffalo I guess.
Love talking about ecosystems.

I've lost all the Spruce on my Shagawa Lake property. I'm only puzzled by the biggest White Pine dying .

Stumpy: "I've lost all the Spruce on my Shagawa Lake property. I'm only puzzled by the biggest White Pine dying . "

Further south in the Brainerd area we had aa fungus this last decade killing a lot of our Black Spruce.

Ernest Brown journals early 1890's

Observations from northern MN that provide awesome info as Ernest explored and collected specimens.

Marten: " Ernest Brown journals early 1890's


Observations from northern MN that provide awesome info as Ernest explored and collected specimens. "

THANKS VERY INTERESTING

Stumpy: "I've lost all the Spruce on my Shagawa Lake property. I'm only puzzled by the biggest White Pine dying . "

We’ve got the Southern pine beetle on the East coast, they are taking all the pines. The emerald ash borer already came thru & took all the ash trees. Now it’s oak wilt…I can hardly keep up.

Swampturtle: "

Stumpy: "I've lost all the Spruce on my Shagawa Lake property. I'm only puzzled by the biggest White Pine dying . "

We’ve got the Southern pine beetle on the East coast, they are taking all the pines. The emerald ash borer already came thru & took all the ash trees. Now it’s oak wilt…I can hardly keep up."

It seems were being attacked on multiple fronts at once. In Brainerd were just on the south end of oak Wilt-it is advancing northward.
Oak wilt really scares me my brother has about 80 acres of beautiful oak-some old as 250 years old and extremely healthy.

My Spruce are OK. I have lots of firs dead and dying.

They have hit my Red Pine in Isabella area, I haven't looked at the trees in the last few years but they were not happy at that time.

LindenTree: "They have hit my Red Pine in Isabella area, I haven't looked at the trees in the last few years but they were not happy at that time."

wow,I didn't know they would hit red pine also, I got like a 100 big ones in my yard.

Just having the “name” Pinetree I’d be nervous.

Only the Balsam Firs have been affected on my land.
The White and Black Spruce are surviving.
I have lots to do because of this problem.

Oops I forgot I already replied.

Pinetree: "

LindenTree: "They have hit my Red Pine in Isabella area, I haven't looked at the trees in the last few years but they were not happy at that time."

wow,I didn't know they would hit red pine also, I got like a 100 big ones in my yard."

My Red pine are less than 20 feet tall.

Eagles nest township here - at least 50% of our balsams over 20 feet tall are dead. Younger trees seem unaffected. No red or white pines seem affected. That would be a sad day as we have many very large red pines which I estimate to be 75 years or more. I have family with property in whiteface reservoir area and they have even more balsams and even more dead. It feels like a big tinder box there.

Pinetree: "

Its been common to say deer are invasive species and much of the area, but were they really. The MN DNR has a book written covering from 1860-early 1900's. In 1895 its is documented in writing back than a individual at that time said its was very common for locals and native Americans to sell the abundant meat of deer and moose in the streets of Ely, even though it was illegal but nobody really enforced it. They were scared to enforce it for there was only like one game warden in that area and feared for his life if he did.
Also around 1890 in Walker, by leech. I believe it was a priest wrote that the native Americans that year killed around 200 deer and many moose for they were very abundant.


Also in the early 1900's a forester-logger by Ely was asked why you didn't replant white pine as you cut them. Answer it would cut into our time and profit margin(somethings have not changed).


It does sound like the extreme northeast-gunflint area lacked deer, except a rare one along lake superior.
I also wonder how did the deer if they were not present get so abundant over such a wide area in such a short time. I at least believe they were present in good numbers by Walker. Remember natural and fires set by Indians created much deer-moose habitat.
Yes the book talks about caribou trails in the swamps around 1880 north of Mille lacs.
Also deer almost became extinct in the TC area from over hunting in the late 1800's.
Its strange though and info lacking what the wolf population was like?
I know this is contrary to what people are saying but the documented cases way back than are hard to dismiss."

Here in the Arrowhead/North Shore deer were nearly or completely absent before the historical logging and subsequent slash fires across the region. It was moose and caribou country.

The second growth forest that replaced the old pines/cedars was largely aspen/birch/brush which allowed deer to populate the area from the SW, while caribou disappeared from lack of habitat, over-hunting, increased wolf predation, and brain-worm.

Even in ideal woodland caribou habitat, their population density is very low (one caribou for every several square miles vs deer, which typically have 5 to 20 per square mile), so wolf populations are very low in caribou country. Wolf numbers probably exploded once deer populated the area.

From what I've read there were probably WAY more wolves in southern Minnesota than in the North in the pre-settlment days.

Arctic, that is one thing I always wondered, if wolf populations were much lower in the 1800's.
It seems like caribou are very vulnerable to wolf predation.
Also in many area roads, snowmobile trails have made mobility of wolves so much greater. They don't have to use valuable energy going thru deep snow to find prey. They use the packed trails and roads to travel many miles.
The late 1960's and early 70's moose populations exploded and were seen as far south as Brainerd and even had a season by Detroit lakes. They receded just as fast. Lot of theories what happened in the retreat, but no concrete conclusion. It just wasn't one thing.

Love talking ecology and natural resource issues.

Pinetree: "Love talking ecology and natural resource issues."

I do too, Pinetree. Wolves definitely hit roads and snowmobile trails hard when the snow gets deep. Amazing how their numbers crash, along with the deer after a severe winter though.

At age 63 I've seen plenty of change over the years lol

arctic: "

Pinetree: "Love talking ecology and natural resource issues."

I do too, Pinetree. Wolves definitely hit roads and snowmobile trails hard when the snow gets deep. Amazing how their numbers crash, along with the deer after a severe winter though.


At age 63 I've seen plenty of change over the years lol


"

I worked with the head of Tamarac National Wildlife Refuge for many years.
He told me the reason we have so many wolves around his refuge was because of all the timber harvesting around the area. Deer love the young aspen shoots of new cuttings and increase in numbers, making the apex predator increase in numbers.

From the MinnPost: Spruce budworm defoliation and mortality in 2024. Credit: Minnesota Department of Natural Resources

LindenTree: "

arctic: "

Pinetree: "Love talking ecology and natural resource issues."

I do too, Pinetree. Wolves definitely hit roads and snowmobile trails hard when the snow gets deep. Amazing how their numbers crash, along with the deer after a severe winter though.



At age 63 I've seen plenty of change over the years lol



"

I worked with the head of Tamarac National Wildlife Refuge for many years.
He told me the reason we have so many wolves around his refuge was because of all the timber harvesting around the area. Deer love the young aspen shoots of new cuttings and increase in numbers, making the apex predator increase in numbers."

Very true. The places with the most recent logging activity seem to have the most deer/moose, which allow wolves to increase too.

And then a long, severe winter hits...

Much of the timber were talking about has little market value. various spruce and balsam. true at times there is, but with huge expense of logging equipment now, many loggers don't want to mess with marginal profit.
Get further south in the Brainerd area,just about every mature tree on public land has been logged in the last 20 years. The county has run out of good timber for loggers. Now their cutting oaks which range from 80-250 years old and very viable and used heavy by wildlife. Like white pine they won't be coming back, they have been replaced with ironwood, ash and aspen. The oak stands are the only thing left. Actually, most of area deer have been declining in the cut areas. As Retired DNR wildlife manager at Ely said and others agree. After 8 years where aspen takes over there is less food value than before the cutting. Many cuts now are 40–80-acre clear cuts. Too much at one time.

Some of the timber sales up here don't even get bid on. Difficult access, poor-quality timber, or timber with little or no market value.

I'm not a fan at all of cutting old oaks or maples, unless they are diseased or in a severe state of decline. I'd like to see all old growth, long-lived trees protected, because there isn't much left anyway.

arctic: "Some of the timber sales up here don't even get bid on. Difficult access, poor-quality timber, or timber with little or no market value.


I'm not a fan at all of cutting old oaks or maples, unless they are diseased or in a severe state of decline. I'd like to see all old growth, long-lived trees protected, because there isn't much left anyway."

Wow, I guess I am fortunate. in 2020 I sold 7 acres of Aspen with access off State Hwy 113 north of Detroit Lakes for $20,000. I have 80 acres there that have been managed in a select cutting rotation , mostly Aspen dating back to the late 1960's. The DNR set up the sale for me through their Private Forest Management program, and SFIA/Sustainable Forest Incentive Act, where I get a money for not developing it.

Does this affect the dead and down rule? If we see infected or dying trees, should we take them down?

There should be plenty on the ground or close to it.

I would also think that burning that dead stuff would help keep the wilderness safer.

arctic: "Some of the timber sales up here don't even get bid on. Difficult access, poor-quality timber, or timber with little or no market value.


I'm not a fan at all of cutting old oaks or maples, unless they are diseased or in a severe state of decline. I'd like to see all old growth, long-lived trees protected, because there isn't much left anyway."

Thanks, down here I get tears my eyes on are shrinking of our oak forest. Some were here before the declaration of independence. They are very viable still but if they have a little rot in the middle or a little crooked I seen one cutting there was close to 800 cords or more cut in a pile and left to rot, they cut everything but only took the best logs. I measured it and the pile was like 250 feet long and very wide and high. The deer population declined immediately because it was once a very productive oak. Now iron wood, ash and aspen and down here many cuttings we get the invasive species Buckthorn move in on cuttings. Stand. The oak with individual trees producing like 100 pounds of acorns. Also it was a fisher heaven, they love mature trees.
I did some logging in my younger years and still get out with a chainsaw trying to manage for wildlife.
Logging is a very important and viable industry and should continue but done right and people got to realize some timber areas there is not much economic value in a cutting for loggers.

Yeah. I hate seeing the old oaks cut. Plus, in some areas they're getting killed by oak wilt disease. The oak woods I frequented as a Boy Scout in the 1970s west of Elk River are utterly decimated by a combination of oak wilt and buckthorn.

The state and local governments are negligent, in my opinion, by not placing buckthorn eradication as a top priority, considering what it does to woodlands.

arctic: "Yeah. I hate seeing the old oaks cut. Plus, in some areas they're getting killed by oak wilt disease. The oak woods I frequented as a Boy Scout in the 1970s west of Elk River are utterly decimated by a combination of oak wilt and buckthorn.


The state and local governments are negligent, in my opinion, by not placing buckthorn eradication as a top priority, considering what it does to woodlands."

Yes oak wilt is moving north, I think in my area it is still south of us like 40 miles. Getting too close. Seems like so many diseases now hitting all tree types. Things are changing.

Pinetree: "Like white pine they won't be coming back, they have been replaced with ironwood, ash and aspen."

Ash trees are next on the list. Once the Emerald Ash Borer arrives, it will be a matter of a few years.
I've been planting red oak and black cherry trees for a few years now north of Two Harbors.