I am currently looking for a used Bell Northwind or Northstar, during my search a friend of mine suggested checking out the Hemlock Eagle. I'm not having a lot of luck finding reviews for this canoe. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this particular canoe and how it compares to a Bell Northwind and Northstar.

Thanks

Dave Curtis brings his fleet to the Solo Canoe Rendezvous (including the tandem Eagle) and Raystown.

I have another of Dave's boats and find the fit and finish overall quite good in the overall scheme of canoe makers..probably better than Bells. For sure if its a recent Bell the fit and finish of Hemlock is better.

Compares more to the Northstar.

Hemlock is not a mass builder. Its not surprising you haven't seen more in the Midwest. Easterners took em all.

Hemlocks are descendants of Curtis Canoe and Dave Curtis has been building for many many years.

quote searat1: "the Hemlock Eagle. I'm not having a lot of luck finding reviews for this canoe.

Thanks"

I trust you have looked online. If I couldn't find any reviews of a canoe before buying, I'd probably stop looking at that particular product and go back to Bell or some other alternative.

Not sure if I could paddle a craft named after something that could kill me.

Maybe already read this....but FYI.. reviews

quote fitgers1: "

quote searat1: "the Hemlock Eagle. I'm not having a lot of luck finding reviews for this canoe.


Thanks"

I trust you have looked online. If I couldn't find any reviews of a canoe before buying, I'd probably stop looking at that particular product and go back to Bell or some other alternative.

Not sure if I could paddle a craft named after something that could kill me. "

Sure I trust everything I read online..LOL. You really should not consider any boat you cannot test paddle. At this time Bell (as ORC had an unsustainable business plan) is not making boats. Dave is.

Reviews of non mass produced boats are sometimes hard to come by. I have three of the best and none have ever been reviewed on the Web.

The Eagle was designed by DY too so all three of the OP candidates are DY designs.

http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1131953

quote fitgers1: "

quote searat1: "the Hemlock Eagle. I'm not having a lot of luck finding reviews for this canoe.


Thanks"

I trust you have looked online. If I couldn't find any reviews of a canoe before buying, I'd probably stop looking at that particular product and go back to Bell or some other alternative.

Not sure if I could paddle a craft named after something that could kill me. "

That's pretty funny. You're more than welcome to paddle my Cyanide Hyena any time you want

The Hemlock Eagle started life as the Curtis NorthStar. It is a symmetrical 16'X 35" hull with 2" rocker at each end and significant tumblehome; 3" total, 1.5" each side at center. That tumblehome improves/narrows the paddling stations, inproving reach for smaller paddlers.

Hemlock has increased the stem layout 3" per end to bring overall length to 16'6".

Typical of Yost designs, NS/Eagle is dry and seakindly even if the bubble, rather than shouldered tumblehome carries some water over the rail.

The stern rocker increases maneuverability at the cost of tracking for those stern paddlers who insist on carrying the blade past their torsos.

Eagle is a solid core hull, all fabric w/o foam core. while that increases weight to ~50# it improves repair-ability. The NorthStar/Eagle has comparable volume to the Bell NorthStar, the Eagle being the better moving water boat.

Bell's NorthStar is special to me, as I wrote the design brief for it and was one of the group that came up with the Black/Gold laminate in the bar at the Madison Sheraton during Canocopis 1994. The Bell is faster and tracks better due to differential rocker and a higher length/width ratio. Unfortunately the mold sits on the Wisconsin shore of the Mississippi River unused. neat little boat, but no longer sold.

The issue is availability. Curtis NStars and Hemlock Eagles will always be scarce and they are terminal boats; nothing better to move up too. There were more Bell NStars made, but usually in lower quality laminates. In Black/Gold it's another terminal boat.

Swift's Keewaydin 16 is currently manufactured; 16'X 35"; same designer and same design brief, but lighter in weight with infused foam core and foam/composite rails,~33#; 6"shorter and 1/2" wider.
Another terminal boat and probably not available used, especially in the Carbon laminate.

Bell's NorthWind is a different hull, basically a cut down NorthWoods. I would know, I did the cutting and bondo work. A foot longer, an inch wider with more capacity but lacking the compact cruiser performance; ie not as quick as the shorter, narrower hulls but faster, better tracking and speced for larger paddlers and longer trips. The reason NorthWind exists is that we noticed the NWoods was too much boat for lots of folks who were too much paddler for NStar.

Interesting point, what are the dimensions of the OP and potential paddling partners? i.e. height and weight[s].

Not paddled one myself, but a friend had one 5+ years ago. He has passed on. He sold his only because the wife quit paddling and he found the Eaglet a better solo canoe. He compared it to a Bell Northwind that paddled "Sweeter." HE said glide was easier and it just felt more "Alive." I didn't say "Lively," because I didn't want to imply he and his wife felt it unstable. I'd snatch one up, Hemlocks will hold their value, unlike mass produced hulls. The two Hemlocks I've seen that belonged to friends were impeccably built. "Perfection" is the word that comes to mind. Only other boats comparably built that I've seen are Placid's and Colden's.

My friend was also going through Cancer tratment when he had dealings with the Curtis' (Owners and builders) and remarked how they had some nice long talks and what GOOD people they were. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of their boats if it fit my need! BTW, they also have demo and used boats on their website. Here's a link:
Hemlock Canoes

Compact Cruisers

All the compact cruisers, basically ACA short class downriver racers, are sweet paddling boats. This is mostly because they have less wetted surface than bigger boats, hence accelerate faster due to reduced skin friction and they turn more quickly because they are shorter. Further, if they aren't fairly stable and dry they won't finish their race[s].

There's a long list of these "sweet" little hulls, starting with Sawyer's Canadian, Mad River's Malecite, Sawyer's 190 Cruiser, Curtis' NorthStar, Swift's Algonquin and Kipiwa, Bell's NorthStar and Swift's Keewaydin 16. Old Town's Penobscot 16 and Dagger's Interlude are/were
rubber approximations.

Comparing any of them with a Bell NorthWind is analogous to comparing a Saab 9.3 Sport-Combi to a Buick Station wagon. Of course the smaller unit is sportier, it's lighter, shorter and turbo-charged, but it won't carry the tripper's burden.

I like my canoes as I like my beer. Made locally.

All this chatter of different crafts. How good this one is compared to that one and such. He makes 'em better than that guy which makes them better than that guy and so on.

The way I look at it IMDAHO is that it isn't the canoe. Unless one is a professional that is.
A canoe is a canoe is a canoe. Like a bowling ball on the rack at the local alley. Like a cue in the stand at the local bar. Like the rifle the hunter uses. It isn't the equipment, it's the end user. A good canoe can be a p.o.s. in the hands of the inexperienced or non-professional. A p.o.s. canoe can win a race in the hands of a well experienced professional.

If it looks good to you, hauls your gear, isn't too heavy for you, has two pointy ends and you like the color. Snatch it up I say!

quote CharlieWilson: "Compact Cruisers
All the compact cruisers, basically ACA short class downriver racers, are sweet paddling boats. This is mostly because they have less wetted surface than bigger boats, hence accelerate faster due to reduced skin friction and they turn more quickly because they are shorter. Further, if they aren't fairly stable and dry they won't finish their race[s].
There's a long list of these "sweet" little hulls, starting with Sawyer's Canadian, Mad River's Malecite, Sawyer's 190 Cruiser, Curtis' NorthStar, Swift's Algonquin and Kipiwa, Bell's NorthStar and Swift's Keewaydin 16. Old Town's Penobscot 16 and Dagger's Interlude are/were
rubber approximations.
Comparing any of them with a Bell NorthWind is analogous to comparing a Saab 9.3 Sport-Combi to a Buick Station wagon. Of course the smaller unit is sportier, it's lighter, shorter and turbo-charged, but it won't carry the tripper's burden. "

I WAS NOT COMPARING A NORTHWIND AND A HEMLOCK EAGLE. I failed to put quotation marks, but I was quoting an approximation of what a deceased friend said. It went something like this "It paddles kind of like a Northwind, but sweeter!" It was his opinion in describing to me how the Eagle "Felt" to him. He probably used this description because I had a Northwind, and LIKED my Northwind and could draw the connection.

quote fitgers1: "I like my canoes as I like my beer. Made locally.


All this chatter of different crafts. How good this one is compared to that one and such. He makes 'em better than that guy which makes them better than that guy and so on.


The way I look at it IMDAHO is that it isn't the canoe. Unless one is a professional that is.
A canoe is a canoe is a canoe. Like a bowling ball on the rack at the local alley. Like a cue in the stand at the local bar. Like the rifle the hunter uses. It isn't the equipment, it's the end user. A good canoe can be a p.o.s. in the hands of the inexperienced or non-professional. A p.o.s. canoe can win a race in the hands of a well experienced professional.


If it looks good to you, hauls your gear, isn't too heavy for you, has two pointy ends and you like the color. Snatch it up I say!
"

The OP asked a specific question. And was looking for a specific answer.

But how can you buy locally if ORC is not building? Lets hope that this winter changes things.

Sure all the boats are versatile and the trip is in the hands of the end user. But the OP was looking for distinctions.

Meanwhile I do agree, buy from the guy you can talk to about construction. And for me that eliminates some makers.

All the contenders will "do" for a trip. There is no disagreement there. But few have paddled them all. I might have and Charlie has. I say " I might" as when I get in Bell Tandems to demo them Canadian Style I get mixed up as to which "North.." I am paddling. I borrow them.

quote searat1: "I am currently looking for a used Bell Northwind or Northstar, during my search a friend of mine suggested checking out the Hemlock Eagle. I'm not having a lot of luck finding reviews for this canoe. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this particular canoe and how it compares to a Bell Northwind and Northstar.

Thanks"

The best advice I can give you searat1 is this.

If you want a boat for wilderness tripping, get one designed for that purpose. There is nothing wrong with "mass produced" hulls such as Bell, Wenonah, Souris River, etc. If you want a canoe for paddling the ocean or down river racing, get one designed for that. Its all about what YOU want the boat to do, and matching those needs to a design.

Good luck with your search and happy paddling.

searat1, I can not offer much help with your search or decision, just want to welcome you to this site and say "Enjoy the Ride!".

Canoes are made all over the country, folks will always have their preferred choices. One big difference though is the cost of transporting a new to you hull. Cross country shipping and handling can add a lot of $$$ to the cost. I bought a Wenonah Advantage in Madison WI last year. Could have purchased a Clipper Freedom. Difference in shipping handling and such got me all wood trim, optional seat, graphite bentshaft paddle, and other assorted sundries. It's your money, get the most from it.

butthead

PS; I wouldn't consider any hand laid composite canoe manufacturer as a "mass market supplier"! bh

Canoeing is a funny sorta sport. In most sports folks take great pains to fit their ski boots, select skis to fit their body size and snow conditions.

Fly fishers select rods to match line weight, and flies too. No-one buys a rod because it is impervious to being stepped on!

Shotgunners want over under guns for target, maybe side by sides for game, and are willing to pay whatever it takes to get the stock fitted. No-one selects a fine shotgun because it doesn't scratch and dent when thrown on rocks!

But many paddlers feel any canoe and paddle will do, and if they can be thrown off two story building; all the better. Hence LL Bean sells $10K shotguns and $1K fly rods and OT Discos and Dicks stocks even worse.

If we're ever to get canoeing to the point it becomes recognized as a skill intensive sport we need fit efficient watercraft to paddlers and their gear and the water conditions and fit efficient paddles to the paddlers' stance in the hull.

Any boat or paddle will not do, and even those to whom the canoe is just a transport system to better fishing can tell the difference.

Local saves on freight and facilitates repair and may or may not address local water conditions, but hand-laid Hemlock boats, wet-bagged Bells and Wenonahs and infused Coldens and Placids and Swifts and several others started with a real designer and performance criteria and then good materials and construction techniques to build excellent watercraft that deserve consideration from discerning paddlers.

"If we're ever to get canoeing to the point it becomes recognized as a skill intensive sport we need fit efficient watercraft to paddlers and their gear and the water conditions and fit efficient paddles to the paddlers' stance in the hull."

Just don't disregard those who think of canoes and paddling as a "Buick wagon" to get to their favorite pastimes.

butthead

Be cautious of purchasing specialized downriver and freestyle boats for wilderness tripping. These are great boats for their purpose and can be used for wilderness tripping for sure.

I come from the other end of the paddling spectrum as a whitewater boater who moved to MN a few years ago and found out I enjoyed wilderness tripping and I am getting too old and fat to swim class 5 rapids. I have a garage full of "real" whitewater boats. I paddle most of them better than my trippers because they fit me better. They have saddles, toe blocks, ankle blocks with thigh straps and are fully bagged. They move with every move I make and can be rolled. I have thigh straps in my trippers and while I enjoy them at times, they tend to be more of a PIA than not. Getting in and out of thigh straps for every portage is a pain. The point is that while whitewater boats can be used for tripping, they are not really that great for that purpose and they are heavy!! I would never advise anyone to use a true whitewater boat for tripping. With that said: The same goes for some true freestyle boats.

I also think it would be prudent to paddle any of the true freestyle boats prior to buying one for tripping. Some of them can have very poor initial stability and can be tough to paddle when loaded or run really wet in windblown waves. I am not an expert on this in any way and have only paddled a couple of them. Be careful of Internet experts!! The guy in a shop turning out 40 or 50 boats a year can create handmade works of art that are true to his original design and be 100% perfect for the task they designed them for. Mass produced designs more often than not will be somewhat of compromise which may be better for someone who uses their boat for wilderness paddling as different trips may mean different paddling conditions.

Contrary to some of inferences made in this thread, stuff made by Wenonah, Bell and Mad River can be just as good for wilderness tripping as the boats made in some designers garage. However these boats may not be as good for specialized uses such as freestyle or downriver racing.

Different areas of the country also have different thought on what a canoe should look like. Keep that in mind as well. I would also look at what the locals are paddling. They know what works in their area better than anyone else.

Do not overthink this. Get a good boat and enjoy paddling it.

Good Luck on your quest and welcome to the board!

quote butthead: ""If we're ever to get canoeing to the point it becomes recognized as a skill intensive sport we need fit efficient watercraft to paddlers and their gear and the water conditions and fit efficient paddles to the paddlers' stance in the hull."


Just don't disregard those who think of canoes and paddling as a "Buick wagon" to get to their favorite pastimes.


butthead
"

No we get that but I obsess over canoes the way others do about fishing rigs. You would laugh at my questions over on a fishing forum. And I would be so quickly over my head so to speak.
Some need to fish every day. Some need to canoe every day.

I'm unsure how to address an individual who has taken such a pejorative as an internet handle, but;

I wasn't suggesting anyone select a FreeStyle hull as a tourer. Arguably, there are no FreeStyle hulls, but good moving water boats do well for FreeStyle technique

Bell made three Moving Water/FreeStyle solo hulls for a while, but mostly focused in tripping hulls. Placid had, now Colden has those molds, but Colden also offer DragonFly, Nomad and soon, Vagabond, definitely tripping bottoms not ideal for FS. But, Colden does not make a tandem germain to this thread.

Hemlock has a solo stripper that may be a workable FreeStyle hull, but they currently build five hulls that are not. Hemlock's Eagle is a Yost designed tandem under consideration.

Placid made a couple moving water, kneeling solos for a couple years, Colden now with those molds, but remaines focused on sit low - use a double blade paddle - fast trippers. Their Ohneka is a narrower, sit low tandem not appropriate to this thread.

Swift has never made a solo appropriate for FreeStyle. They do make a fine hull similar to Bell's NorthStar.

Wenonah built the Galt designed Egret and considered offering his Caper solo, but demurred; sticking to touring/tripping hulls.

These, among other builders, make top quality hulls, starting with focused design, top shelf materials and modern manufacturing techniques. There are others.

To take an alternate tack, FS hulls are mostly moving water boats for intermediate to advanced paddlers who can control a hull with rocker at both ends. Basically advanced Whitewater technique on qualudes. But I never meant to suggest they were everyman's hulls.

This thread concerns comparing the Yost designed Curtis NorthStar/ Hemlock Eagle with Bell's Yost designed NorthStar and, we can assume, similar and more readily available alternatives which would include the Yost designed Swift Keewaydin 16. All three hulls have significant tumblehome which fits more compact paddlers well and improves solo paddling from a kneeling thwart. The Swift Kee 16 and Bell 'Star are very similar compact cruisers. The Eagle is in family, but, with symmetrical rocker, more attuned to rivers and more advanced paddlers.

All are/were well built boats, the Curtis/Hemlock as top drawer as a hand laminate gets and the Bell a fine example of wet bagging. Swifts infused hulls are lighter and stronger still, and include the option of integral synthetic rails to further reduce weight.

I agree everyone should pursue the best hull for their purposes they can afford, along with better paddles than they intended to buy, and PFDs that are comfortable to wear. Then strive to enjoy canoeing, a truly wonderful and skill intensive sport.

Thanks for all the info; I sure learned a lot more than I thought I would. You guys have a wealth of knowledge on this site. It seems that the Hemlock Eagle is definitely an option. If I'm understanding everything that's been said, the Hemlock Eagle would do slightly better on my river trips, and the Bell Northstar would do slightly better on my Boundary Waters trips. As to load carrying ability, my initial thought (when I started my canoe search) was that if I could carry two weeks worth of gear backpacking, I should be able to fit two weeks of gear in either of these canoes. My only concern now(and this goes for the Bell Northstar as well) is if I could fit two weeks of gear in these canoes for my longer trips. Especially since, over the past few years, I've been averaging two 10-14 day trips per year.

Lastly, one of the reasons I am looking for a used canoe is that I would rather buy a handcrafted canoe from a smaller outfit (if I had the cash I would just buy new from a smaller company, but that's not an option right now) than a new canoe from a larger manufacturer. Nothing against the larger operation, its just personal preference. So I understand where some of you are coming from when talking about certain canoe brands.

"I'm unsure how to address an individual who has taken such a pejorative as an internet handle, but;"

That's ok, I've been refered to as butt-- something or other for longer than you have worked for Colden Canoes (or is that a different C. Wilson).

butthead

To the designer folks: What boat was the old perception HD 1 whitewater boat based on?

quote butthead: ""I'm unsure how to address an individual who has taken such a pejorative as an internet handle, but;"


That's ok, I've been refered to as butt-- something or other for longer than you have worked for Colden Canoes (or is that a different C. Wilson).


butthead
"

Paul Meyer is Colden Canoe. He has some friends helping build. That is a fine example of a shop in the USA that I am happy to support. Hemlock is another as well as Placid

Its not too shabby when a former principal at Bell (prior to ORC dsys) and a consultant to several(not just one) manufacturers is willing to share expertise.

BTW there is no such thing as a FreeStyle boat. FreeStyle is a set of techniques that arose from maneuvering tripping canoes in close quarters such as the approaches and exits from portages.

quote yellowcanoe: "

quote butthead: ""If we're ever to get canoeing to the point it becomes recognized as a skill intensive sport we need fit efficient watercraft to paddlers and their gear and the water conditions and fit efficient paddles to the paddlers' stance in the hull."



Just don't disregard those who think of canoes and paddling as a "Buick wagon" to get to their favorite pastimes.



butthead
"

No we get that but I obsess over canoes the way others do about fishing rigs. You would laugh at my questions over on a fishing forum. And I would be so quickly over my head so to speak.
Some need to fish every day. Some need to canoe every day."

Dont diss what you've not used for BW/Q tripping. You are stepping on the toes of many highly experienced trippers. Lose the attitude and join us.

How do you know I have not been there and don't trip? I go to Quetico..not the BWCA. More likely I am found in Woodland Caribou or Wabakimi.

I guess you mean I am not in the clique and I accept that. I solo. 70 days a year. Over 15 years.

im not a name dropper (name dropping is so 1900's) and i dont worship anyone. i just load my canoe and gear, drive north and enjoy.

and i dont brag....*much. unlike you....

do you post like that just to get a rise out of people or do you post like that because youre totally oblivious of how people will view you? cause you dont come across real well...IMO.

quote kanoes: "im not a name dropper (name dropping is so 1900's) and i dont worship anyone. i just load my canoe and gear, drive north and enjoy."

That's the whole purpose of getting out there. I have had the happy fortune to meddle in a bunch of boat shops and make more than an acquaintance with David Yost and Charlie plus many others..but not to bore you. If you would rather I go away that is fine with me. I have learned alot from others and just passing along information. Seems like too much info is unwanted by those here.

I hope all have the opportunity to pass along what they have learned. Otherwise canoe tripping has an abysmal future.

read my edited post...and yet more name dropping.

let ME name drop....i know adam, trent, tim, dan, kyle, rich, brad, vance, ken, pat, ken, kendra, terri, diana, mark, gary, joel, kim, joe, greg, greg, lisa, brad, steve, rob, steve, debbie, mike, lin, dave, greg, chuck, chuck, liz, PHIL, phil, pete, pete, kristy, stephen, andy, marsha, brian, sheryl, bonnie, jeff, jeff, dianne, kent, erin, ed, ed, andrew, nathan, eric...and more that i missed (sorry).

those names are more inportant to me than any "canoe guru" name.

sorry for the hijack searat.

I don't get it? The guy asked about a few specific hulls and all this? Just shaking my head. I'm getting set to fight cancer for a second time and doggoneit life is way to short to get "Pi$$y" with each other over minor stuff like this!

I admit, I too was a bit offended when someone made sure my friend's comparison of an Eagle and a Northwind were foolish, but I should have just shut up and not typed what I did.

And, you know, if I rubbed shoulders with some of those canoe design guys, I might mention their names too? Heck, if I ever meet Becky Mason, I KNOW I'll tell every paddler I meet about THAT (LOL)! I'm certain Yellowcanoe DID NOT mean to rub her friends names "In your face," or in an arrogant manner. I've had the pleasure of meeting and paddling with her. She's not like that.

As for the Hemlock Eagle, I tried to relay a mini "Review" of that particular boat given to me by a deceased friend. He used it for tripping and was quite happy with it. It wasn't a "Raceing" boat and it wasn't a "Freestyle" boat, it was a "Tripper." I mentioned they were well made and the fact that the Curtis' are good folks. He told me they were not just interested in selling him a boat, but took the time to talk with my friend about his cancer treatment and religion. Hey, if someone is "Nice," and gives excellent customer service and makes a good product I'm gonna "Toot their horn!" I don't think such statements are an affront to Wenonah, Mad River, et al! Heck, I've "Tooted" Wenonah's, Mad River's, Bell's, and Souris' horns on this forum too!

C'mon you'all, let's not puff our chests out and start acting like a bunch of banty roosters over a few boat hulls and builders! Life is just too short!

Wow so much to catch up on here!
Do I understand all of this correctly?
We have a very knowledgeable guy selling boats and a lady that is trying to turn this website into paddlenewengland.com

I think that there has been a lot of good knowledge shared above, however, I really have to say that some of it seems to be coming across kind of snobbishly. I know that isn't a mid-western, southern or western way to be. In the immortal words of Australia's greatest rock and roll band of all time, "Who could it be now"...

Can I drop a name as well. Jan. That's a pretty rootin' tootin' good name that carries some weight in my book.

I still wouldn't buy a canoe named after a poisonous tree. Not a good selling point.

Welcome to the board searat1!

remember...two pointy ends!

yech, i buy good boats i can find cheap on craigs list, or ebay. i don't need to drop big names, i could. my newest canoe is a 1982 old town canadienne, blew off a persons car, mangled, another big name i will not mention, in a storm. it may not be the best canoe ever made but i am sure it will be excellent for my needs. sig olson. sorry. carl ketter. and so on.

the nice thing about canoeing is that it is a sport that can be enjoyed by the 99%. a lot of people really could give a crap about who designed their freaking canoe, does it work for what i want? and fitting a canoe for paddlers? seriously? jenson.

fitgers1, you posted just as i did. i really try to not sound nasty, even though i would like too, it's a midwestern thing. any canoe that floats and makes the paddler happy is cool with me. trying to find pine tar for skis that were obsolete in 1970 strikes me as a bit off though. i do keep some of those nasty opinions to myself. along those line of thought, there was a recent post by a guy who was considering a 12 foot plastic old town for a bwca trip. my initial thought was outrage! YOU will die. then i thought, he probably won't, shut up and let him have fun.

quote ozarkpaddler: "......Yellowcanoe DID NOT mean to rub her friends names "In your face," or in an arrogant manner. I've had the pleasure of meeting and paddling with her. She's not like that."

really? its happened about ten times here already. accidental? :)

kanoes, of 15000 plus posts. same as above. i don't know who you may be referring to. remember we are kind and humble midwesterners, we are meek and always are ready to hear others opinions. somewhere in this post is a bit of truth, and maybe knowledge. my sister in law is from new jersey, but she pretends that she is from maine. i don't get it.

Whooeee, didn't mean to be offensive!!!!

Shared knowledge is good. Superior attitude and arrogance, not so good.
I do find it disingenuous to sing the praises of a product without mentioning any relationship with the producer. CharlieWilson, if I offended you by making that assumption, I humbly apologize. I have referred to myself as "butthead" for more than 30 years. If you are "unsure how to address an individual who has taken such a pejorative as an internet handle", just call me Ken.

butthead

quote ozarkpaddler: "I don't get it? The guy asked about a few specific hulls and all this? Just shaking my head. I'm getting set to fight cancer for a second time and doggoneit life is way to short to get "Pi$$y" with each other over minor stuff like this! ... C'mon you'all, let's not puff our chests out and start acting like a bunch of banty roosters over a few boat hulls and builders! Life is just too short!"

+1!!!!!!!!!

I am relatively new to this board but I come here to relax after listening to my 3 boys bicker all day.

Amazing how we can go from saying prayers for people to this...

I had beers with Jedediah Smith last night, man the stories we swapped.

quote bumabu: "I had beers with Jedediah Smith last night, man the stories we swapped."

Wow! The tall tales that are coming out. Jedediah Smith is a practicing Methodist, he would never drink alcohol.

I know nothing about a Hemlock Eagle, but I do own a Bell NorthStar in the BlackGold Layup. It is a Very nice tripping canoe. It has fairly fast and effecient to paddle, and has good stability loaded.
Not near as stable unloaded, but has good secondary stability. I like the weight of the canoe for a tandem, I love the layup, and she handle's well. I like this boat a lot. I even took the seats out and put a solo seat in it, and took it up to Canada on my first solo.
I since put it back to "Stock", but it is one nice canoe.
So don't be afraid of the NorthStar, you will like that boat also.
SunCatcher

I appreciate the information, the experience, and expertise that has been shared here and do not have the same perception of it as some. Thanks. I hope you continue to post it and that others do the same and keep it to the point. I don't know much about canoes or paddling, but enjoy learning.

Hemlock trees are not poisonous. The unrelated herb, poison hemlock, is the plant we associate with Socrates.

quote Jeriatric: "Hemlock trees are not poisonous. The unrelated herb, poison hemlock, is the plant we associate with Socrates."

Thank-you for correcting me.
I still wouldn't buy a poisonous name.:)

Guys;

This is way out of hand. Ozark Paddler is right!

Poison Hemlock, Conium maculatum, of Phylum Spermatophyta, Class Dicotyledonea, Order Umbellas, is an herb imported from Europe. It grows from Nova Scotia to Mexico, never over five feet high and usually in swampy terrain. Yeah, the fruit is very poisonous.

The Eastern Hemlock tree, Tsuga canadensis, also a Spermatophyte, Div Gymnospermae, Order Coniferalis, is an important component in the speciation of the "Frigg'n North Woods" where we all enjoy paddling. It grows over a hundred feet tall in upland soils, ranging from Nova Scotia down to Tennessee but not Mexico. It's bark was formerly used in tanning leather and it's small evergreen leaves make a potable tea for stranded and challenged paddlers.

Please note, same phylum, different Class, different Order, Genus and species. Not the same plant!

Hemlock NY is named for the latter, not the former, and Dave Curtis's canoe shop is located just South of Hemlock NY. While poisonous things are used in his VE resin, VE resin did not kill Socrates. Nor did/does anybody else's PE, VE or epoxy resin; poisonous all until catalyzed.

Please, let's not discriminate against Dave Curtis, one of the pioneers of our little group of skill oriented paddlers, for false taxonomy!

While his boats are poisonous until the resin sets, so are every other composite builders!

In summary, of the three very similar volume and tumblehomed hulls, the Curtis NorthStar/ Hemlock Eagle, 16'X35" has more stern rocker which helps in moving water. The Bell NorthStar is the sleekest of the batch, 16.6 X34.5" and has differential rocker. Neither are very available used because they are absolute top of the line canoes within their burden niche. Swifts Keewaydin 16 is Eagles size, 16'X35" but has differential rocker, so performs between it's sisters, which is an excellent place,and has the advantage of being readily available to the public.

One should probably not that most paddlers could note discern performance differentials between these boats in a rough chop.

Jeesh, this is too funny. A poster asks about three specific boats and a couple of people can actually speak with knowledge about them and do. How has this ruffled feathers? Because they come across as know-it-alls? Charlie Wilson may not know it all but I am pretty certain he knows more about canoes than anyone posting on this thread. And how on earth is posting intelligently about canoe design "stepping on the toes" of anyone?

quote Merlin: "Jeesh, this is too funny. A poster asks about three specific boats and a couple of people can actually speak with knowledge about them and do. How has this ruffled feathers? Because they come across as know-it-alls? Charlie Wilson may not know it all but I am pretty certain he knows more about canoes than anyone posting on this thread. And how on earth is posting intelligently about canoe design "stepping on the toes" of anyone?"

Good point Merlin. I asked Charlie once to tell me his thoughts on my Mad River Borealis. His explaniation was short and concise, noting there was a flaw in the design, but I still like it for tandem trips with a lower stern seat and sliding seat in bow. I like his straight forwardness and glad he joined the board.

quote kanoes: "sorry for the hijack searat."

Kanoes,
No worries here, I'm truly grateful for all the opinions, advise, and boat specific info. This thread answered my questions and then some. I learned about how this boat and others handle, how its built, a little about who designed the boat, and a little about the boat's history. Additionally, I've looked up most of the other boats mentioned on this thread which has enlightened me some more. So, no harm done here.
As for the other posts, no offense taken on this end. There is a lot of personal preference in buying a boat. For me, I find value in (and am willing to pay extra for) a boat built/crafted in a small shop. For others, my view may sound ridiculous, and see no need in paying a premium for a "small shop" boat when other boats perform and are constructed equally as well. Each view is correct, no right or wrong in my opinion. One thing is for certain however, as mentioned by fitgers1, 2 pointy ends is a must.

Thanks again,
Searat

Socrate's tea was likely an infusion made from Conium leaves but his tormentors could have used any part of the plant....stem, seed, roots, etc. All parts of poison hemlock and water hemlock are poisonous.
Sorry about my lack of canoe input. I must defer (which I have done) to others when it comes to canoe design. I know plants better.

Part of the reason I visit these boards is to learn from people that have knowledge or experience in areas that I don't. I've read many posts from both Charlie and yellowcanoe here as well as on other forums that I personally have found helpful and hope that they will continue to contribute.

charlie has nothing to to with what im about to type. take a guess who does? :)

i dont have an issue with the information delivered, i do(and im not alone, believe me) have an issue about HOW its delivered.

i dont think anyone likes being talked DOWN TO (something you seem to be an expert at), and thats how you are viewed by MANY here.

I am going to speak plainly as well then... what I have been noticing is a vendetta against someone that you have clearly taken a dislike to, that you don't like their tone.

I will like to bring the Curtis thread in to reference...

I found the information in that thread very informative as I am currently looking to purchase a solo canoe. You lashed out and several members pointed out YOUR harsh tone in the thread.

I guess what I am saying is that your tone has been just as grating and I am surprised because you were one of the friendliest people I met at Wing Night!

I am sure I probably bug the crap out of many people on this board, but at least they are kind enough to let it slide and chalk it up to different strokes.

I just think we can be better than this...

quote luft: "I am going to speak plainly as well then... what I have been noticing is a vendetta against someone that you have clearly taken a dislike to, that you don't like their tone.


I will like to bring the Curtis thread in to reference...


I found the information in that thread very informative as I am currently looking to purchase a solo canoe. You lashed out and several members pointed out YOUR harsh tone in the thread.


I guess what I am saying is that your tone has been just as grating and I am surprised because you were one of the friendliest people I met at Wing Night!


I am sure I probably bug the crap out of many people on this board, but at least they are kind enough to let it slide and chalk it up to different strokes.


I just think we can be better than this...


"

im sorry you cant see what so many do. the condescending attitude she has isnt restricted to this thread alone. read around. we are midwestern idiots to her.

condescending attitude or not, their are a few folks on this site that are clearly very expert in their knowledge of canoe design and history. etc. for that we should be thankful and take advantage of this expertise. it's just a web site, one about canoeing. this shouldn't be that difficult. OK, so now i have made my peace offering i would like to take advantage of them, see what they know. i am mentioning this only because earlier on in the thread, buried amongst miscellaneous canoe related trivia a CharlieWilson mentioned something about a Yost designed Swift Keewaydin 16.

this question is off topic, but not that far off. my buddy had received as a high school graduation, 1977, a gift from his parents, a canoe, one that i will state flat out mystified the both of us. it was nothing like the canoes we were used to, and seemed to be a fluke of a design. anyways if this canoe is of a good design, yost even. than i would consider doing the restoration work on it that it may deserve.

so, you canoe gurus, here are several photos,


could this be a yost designed canoe? until last night i have never given this canoe a second thought. but if anybody recognizes the significance of this canoe i will start restoring it tomorrow.

Just popped in to see how things were going here. Can I just say that this is the reason i try to stay out of the tent threads. And those don't get any where near what this one has become! Excuse me while I sit back and laugh a while................
I still will not buy a boat named after something that could possibly kill me anymore than this thread already has.

Point.
Counterpoint.

This is better than a game of Stratego. I love Stratego!

quote searat1: "

quote kanoes: "sorry for the hijack searat."

I learned about how this boat and others handle, how its built, a little about who designed the boat, and a little about the boat's history.
Thanks again,
Searat"

You've also learned how well a tight-knit internet family gets along during the holidays when we can't get out and paddle those two pointy ends!

Ha! Point-Counter Point... love it.

Since my internet "brother", Kanoes and I are tussling, maybe that means I won't have to argue with my non-internet family at Christmas dinner this year :-)

Jan, you know I luv ya!

Keewaydin Canoes:

There were two, a Canadian made wood canvas Keewaydin canoe built by Chestnut Canoe in New Brunswick, 1926-1979 and an American Co. in Stowe Vermont in the mid 70s.

The Keewaydin Canoe Company in Stowe started as a joint venture between Mad River Canoe and Tubbs Snowshoe. Remember the year Mad River has rawhide seats? That partnership broke up after ~ a year leaving a building in Stowe. Dave Wellington built a series of molds based on a shortened MRC TW Special and others off a Canadian Wood-Canvas canoe that may have been a Chestnut Keewaydin.?? They did mold a DY designed C-1 racer. He had the mold already. He did not design other hulls for them. They did not paid him for use of the C-1 mold.

The canoe pictured has large composite racing end caps typical of early Mad Rivers, so it's probably one of the Stowe made units. The large logo on the side probably wouldn't have been applied to a wood-canvas Chestnut and the type font reminds of the Mad River logo of the day. Everyone looks for the adjacent accessible, why not Tubbs too? It's tough to figure length from the image but the bow station looks TW-like. Keewaydin used a brittle resin; certainly they were more fragile than their Mad River counterparts of the day.

The name is another question, There is a Keewaydin Island on Florida's gulf coast, Keewaydin Lakes in Maine and Michigan and a Camp Keewaydin that features canoe tripping on Lake Temagami in Ontario. 'Tough to guess which of these the various Keewaydin canoes and canoe company were named for.

cwilson, thanks for the info. i kind of had the feeling you could point me in the right direction. the bottom line is even if this canoe was handcrafted by elves i don't believe it would be worth the effort to restore. it is very wide and flat bottomed, maybe fine for pond canoeing, but a poor choice for the larger lakes in the BWCA.

Please.....

"im sorry you cant see what so many do. the condescending attitude she has isnt restricted to this thread alone. read around. we are midwestern idiots to her."


You don't really get together with "many" others and talk about who you like and who you don' t like on this board, do you? I get the feeling if I check your profile I'll see a picture of a twelve year old girl.

quote Merlin: "

"im sorry you cant see what so many do. the condescending attitude she has isnt restricted to this thread alone. read around. we are midwestern idiots to her."



You don't really get together with "many" others and talk about who you like and who you don' t like on this board, do you? I get the feeling if I check your profile I'll see a picture of a twelve year old girl. "

OMG, you ARE right!!!

butthead

quote Merlin: "

"im sorry you cant see what so many do. the condescending attitude she has isnt restricted to this thread alone. read around. we are midwestern idiots to her."



You don't really get together with "many" others and talk about who you like and who you don' t like on this board, do you? I get the feeling if I check your profile I'll see a picture of a twelve year old girl. "



OMG, you ARE right!!!

butthead

THAT's funny