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Dammfast
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07/16/2014 08:26PM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
Does anyone have any information on an 86 Wenonah Advantage? I just bought one for $300, guy says it is kevlar, but I have my doubts. I am looking for the information to help me identify what exactly I got. I have a few pictures not sure if they will work from my ipad but here goes.

Nope they won't load.
 
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07/16/2014 09:48PM  
if you can get the hull ID number...give Wenonah a call and they should be able to tell you what it is.
 
1stSatInMay
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07/17/2014 04:09AM  
Weigh the boat and we should be able to tell construction.
 
Dammfast
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07/17/2014 08:10AM  
Well wenonah couldn't tell me much about it. I guess I will have to find batteries to put into the bathroom scale. Does anyone have the catalog from 1986 with the weights? The boat I bought has a gel coat and has aluminum gunwales and hardware.
 
DeuceCoop
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07/17/2014 08:43AM  
Could be tufweave which is similar to kevlar but slightly heavier and I think somewhat tougher. I don't know much about Wenonahs but if you ask your question over on paddling.net you'll probably get a definitive answer.
 
Banksiana
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07/17/2014 10:36AM  
I have an 86 Advantage- since 86. Post some pictures, inside and out of the boat. They made a couple of different layups then, including a center rib and flex-core both of which added significant weight over the foam core.
 
Dammfast
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07/17/2014 12:30PM  
Only pics I have right now picking it up this afternoon.


 
07/17/2014 12:56PM  
the ribs tell me kevlar....possibly ultra-light. Did they make UL's in 86?
 
mr.barley
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07/17/2014 01:04PM  
I'm going with UL kevlar with a gel coat. I used to have a 1993 just like it in white. Around 37 lbs.
 
mr.barley
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07/17/2014 01:09PM  
300 bucks!?...You can't go wrong there. I'm looking forward to seeing some better pictures of it. I'm a sucker for the Advantage.
 
mr.barley
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07/17/2014 03:08PM  
I'd have to replace the diaper pin seat adjustment stop with the easier to use on the fly spring clamp. I put one on my Advantage and bought one for my old MN II. Not a fan of the diaper pin. 5 dollars plus a couple bucks shipping from Wenonah.
 
thebotanyguy
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07/17/2014 04:21PM  
The photo shows the ultra-light core construction, with the diamond shaped foam core and side ribs. It differs from the flex-core construction of that era in that the flex-core lacks the foam throughout the bottom of the canoe.

Is it kevlar or Tuf-weave? You will have to weigh the canoe to determine that. I don't have any Wenonah catalogs from that early date, but it is probably not dissimilar to the 1996 canoes. The listed weights from that catalog are kevlar=33 lbs, Tuf-weave=43 lbs.

Link from archive.org 1996 catalog
 
Dammfast
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07/17/2014 09:40PM  
So the canoe weighs 44.8# what does this mean? Kevlar with a gel coat? I paddled it for he first time tonight. This is my first time in a solo canoe so I don't have anything to compare it to, but I was impressed. I could maintain a fast pace with minimal effort even in the wind. I need to get it out with some weight in it to see what she is like. I got some pictures of each keel it looks golden under the gel coat. The picture upload has timed out twice. I will try to load the rest of my pictures when I am back on wifi.
 
Banksiana
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07/18/2014 01:02AM  
Color of the interior looks like fiber glass or rather their "tuff weave" lay up. Weight confirms it. Kevlar with gel would be in the low thirties. Nice boat......
 
07/18/2014 07:21AM  
If a bathroom scale was used I'd say nothing is confirmed, according to 1996 link above 44lbs would be on the heavy side for a Kevlar+gelcoat or on the light side for a Tuffweave+gelcoat. For what it's worth every composite canoe I've weighed has been a lb or two over what the MFG has stated, this is using a very expensive Ohaus floor scale.

quote Banksiana: "Color of the interior looks like fiber glass or rather their "tuff weave" lay up. Weight confirms it. Kevlar with gel would be in the low thirties. Nice boat......"

I don't think Kevlar with Colored Gelcoat would be in the low 30's, more like high 30's, 5-8lbs on top of whatever layup was used
 
Dammfast
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07/18/2014 08:12AM  
Well I called wenonah, the guy I got on the phone didn't know off the top of his head but after going to retrieve paperwork told me under 50 would probably be kevlar. He didn't seem overly confident in this statement however. The scale I used was the same scale used for wrestling weigh-ins so I am pretty sure that was very close. At this point I think I will not worry about it so much and go enjoy my 28 year old canoe. I now need to get a yoke figured out before July 26. Does anyone have the PDF of the 86 wenonah catalog?
 
mcimes
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07/18/2014 09:25AM  
My vote is the Tuff weave layup. I've seen a couple tuff weave boats with the diamond core and ribs, but this is generally an uncommon layup. The only boats I've seen it on were from this era when it seems like wenonah was phasing out their center rib and cross rib designs. I almost bought a 89' Jensen 18 in Tuff weave with the diamond core/foam ribs that looked very similar to your boat

Here's why I think its Tuff - The inside of the boat appears to be opaque, like a creamy greyish color. I have only seen this appearance on Tuff weave boats. All the Kevlar wenonah's I have seen (UL or flex core) have had clear resin on the interior of the boat so you can see the golden kevlar fabric.

Another thing to look at is the texture of the fabric on the inside of the boat. Kevlar fabric should be pretty much smooth. Tuff weave fabric will have more texture to it in the usual checker board pattern. Also, the weave size on tuff weave is bigger. Ill assume you've seen a Kevlar skin coat boat and know the standard size of Kevlar weave. The Tuff-weave weave is probably twice the size of the kevlar weave
 
Banksiana
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07/18/2014 10:43AM  
The color of the cloth is obviously tuff-weave. The seat is kevlar, note the difference.
 
mr.barley
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07/18/2014 10:46AM  
At 44 lbs I'd say tuffweave. My UL kevlar with a gelcoat weighed around 37.

Still, $300 is a deal.
 
Alan Gage
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07/20/2014 12:04AM  
Never seen Tuffweave have a foam core, but I haven't seen everything by a long shot. As others have said the interior color doesn't look like kevlar. The obvious answer, at least to me, would be a fiberglass layup. It was the same as the ultralight Kevlar with the foam bottom and ribs but was whitish inside and heavier than kevlar (but lighter than tuffweave).

Any way you cut it though you got a great buy!

Alan
 
Banksiana
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07/20/2014 12:47AM  
Tuff-weave is Wenonah's fiberglass layup.. Normally they paint the interior of the tuff-weave or fiberglass boats (or they did in the late 80's and 90's, but if they were foam core they left them un painted. A friend of mine had an early 90's 18 jensen done with foam and skin coat tuff-weave- the boat (except for the ribs and core) was damn near transparent.

Old style yoke on an 86 Advantage. The new yoke works with the 86 as well
 
Alan Gage
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07/20/2014 11:28AM  
quote Banksiana: "Tuff-weave is Wenonah's fiberglass layup..

I don't think they were the same thing. This is a quote from Wenonah's website:

"Tuf-weave Flex-core Wenonah’s Tuf-weave® material is an interwoven fabric made of 50% polyester and 50% fiberglass that out performs either material alone. The Tuf-weave® layup results in our most durable composite canoes. Tuf-weave® canoes offer improved impact resistance and are a great compromise between light weight, performance, and price."

I've owned both Tuf-weave and fiberglass boats from Wenonah and they didn't appear to be the same. The interior texture was different. Not to mention the only tuf-weave boats I've seen from Wenonah only have those big ribs running left and right with no foam core on the bottom of the hull. And other than really old hulls (late 70's/very early 80's) all the fiberglass boats I've seen from Wenonah have used the same layup as ultralight Kevlar with foam bottom and ribs. The old fiberglass hulls I own (Jensen WWC1) from Wenonah have a single rib running the length of the hull.

As far as I know the fiberglass layup is no longer available and never seemed to be really popular judging by the amount of them that come up on the used market.

Alan
 
Banksiana
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07/20/2014 04:08PM  
I believe Wenonah replaced fiberglass cloth with tuff weave. They did not manufacture both tuff weave and all glass boats during the same time period. The Tuff weave lay up was preferred by down river users- the center rib and ridge construction allowing the greater flex necessary for white water.
 
07/20/2014 07:17PM  
Advantage ad Piragis.
My Kevlar UL weighs 33 lbs (my scale), all wood trim, before I added things.

butthead
 
mr.barley
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07/20/2014 07:43PM  
quote Dammfast: Does anyone have the PDF of the 86 wenonah catalog?" Where's hansolo?
 
Dammfast
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07/20/2014 08:39PM  
I sent Mr. solo an email. He sent me message today he was out paddling. I think he is with the consensus that it is a tuff-weave. After having paddled it a few times now I am hooked. I am happy with the purchase, I wasn't sure I would keep it when I first bought it but now I think I might refurbish it. I built a yoke today, and it is working pretty good, I need to raise it up a little.

If anyone has the 1986 wenonah catalog in PDF form I would love to see it.

DammFast.
 
pblanc
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07/21/2014 09:24AM  
Your boat is definitely a Tuf-weave, PVC-Core Advantage. The manufacturer's listed weights for the PVC-Core Advantage with standard aluminum trim (which included gel coat, sliding Kevlar tractor seat, and aluminum footbrace) was 42 lbs for the Tuf-weave version and 31 lbs for the Kevlar version.

The Kevlar Wenonah Advantage with center-rib construction weighed 44 lbs with standard equipment, but your pictures clearly show that the boat is not a center-rib model. Further, as others have indicated, Wenonah painted the interior of their Tuf-weave models and left the Kevlar models clear.

As with most manufacturers, the listed weights for Wenonah boats are typically optimistic by up to 10% so a weight of up to 46 lbs or so is very consistent with a PVC-Core, Tuf-weave Advantage.

The Advantage is a wonderful boat and Tuf-weave construction is very tough. The only disadvantage relative to Kevlar is the 11 pound weight penalty. As for strength, I suspect Tuf-weave is actually stronger. Getting a boat like that in decent condition for $300 is a real score. Let me know when you want to sell it.
 
Dammfast
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07/21/2014 02:44PM  





I have had a bunch of people asking for some pictures. I am not sure what you all wanted pictures of but here you go. I will not be selling it any time soon. My brother gets first crack at it if I decide to sell it. Hope these help but I can take some more if need be.
 
mr.barley
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07/21/2014 03:42PM  
Advantages even look fast on grass.
 
07/21/2014 04:14PM  

quote mr.barley: "quote Dammfast: Does anyone have the PDF of the 86 wenonah catalog?" Where's hansolo?"

Hans Solo just got back from a 7-day Quetico Solo trip last night, so I have some catching up to do.

Here's some additional information on the 1986 Wenonah Advantage.The spec sheet and catalog description is from a 1986 Wenonah Catalog. The price sheet is a 1989 price sheet. Although I have a 1986 price, it's a Dealer price sheet. Nevertheless, the weights and specs for the Advantage are the same for 1986 and 1989.

Maybe my eyes are deceiving me, but I had a hard time deciphering if the hull was a Kevlar PVC Ultra-light lay-up or the "Tuf-weave" PVC Ultra-light lay-up. Even looking at the pictures now, it was difficult to tell if the interior was painted the standard beige or if it was just brown, aged Kevlar.

Even in the 80's, Wenonah would sometimes leave the Tuf-weave Ultra-light lay-ups natural, (i.e., unpainted). But at other times, they'd paint the interior brown, just as they do with all their other Tuf-weave/non-Kevlar lay-ups.

Due to the fact it has a gel-coat, it's most likely a Tuf-weave PVC core Ultra-light. The only way a Kevlar Ultra-light would have a pigmented gel-coat is if someone special ordered it that way. As most of us cane-heads know, Wenonah's Kevlar Ultra-light lay-ups come standard with a "skin-coat", (i.e., no gel-coat).

Hans Solo

 
07/21/2014 05:58PM  
I have two advantages. Barleys old one in kevlar with white gell coat and the other is tuffweave.
Id have to check but if I remember right the tuffweave weighed 58 lbs
 
Turlock
 
08/02/2014 11:59AM  
I just picked up this 1983 Advantage yesterday. It is kevlar and weighs 33 lbs.









 
08/02/2014 12:31PM  

Nice boat Turlock, but it appears to be the Tufweave/fiberglass ultra-light lay-up. If it was all Kevlar, you wouldn't be able to see the brown color of the PVC core and ribs. There's clearly Kevlar reinforcing in the bow and stern though.

Also, in 1983 I'm not sure Wenonah had transitioned to their Tuf-weave lay-up yet, but it was around that time period. It just might be a composite fiberglass lay-up. Regardless, it's still a good build IMHO.

I'd also question the 33 pound weight. The PVC stiffened ultra-light Tufweave/fiberglass lay-up is listed at 42-pounds.

These are not criticisms just observations, because it's still a great solo canoe, albeit a little heavier than you might have figured.

Hans Solo
 
Turlock
 
08/02/2014 01:19PM  
Ah, I was not even aware they made an ultralight fiber glass model. That may very well be what it is. I weighed it this morning on bath scale and came up with 33lbs. Here is the hull number DK1031083.
 
08/02/2014 03:22PM  

quote Turlock: "Ah, I was not even aware they made an ultralight fiber glass model. That may very well be what it is. I weighed it this morning on bath scale and came up with 33lbs. Here is the hull number DK1031083. "

I'm amazed it's that light for a Fiberglass ultra-light lay-up. Then again, yours has more of a thin clear gel-coat versus a pigmented gel-coat. That most likely shaved several pounds off of the hull's weight, but 33-pounds would be an exceptionally light fiberglass ultra-light.

Those listed weights are approximations based on production averages. Usually canoe manufacturers will list the best case scenario weight. But environmental conditions can vary the canoe's final hull weight considerably, even during the same production run. It's possible you got a light one! :-)

Hans Solo

(1989 Wenonah list prices and canoe weights listed below)

 
yellowcanoe
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08/02/2014 04:37PM  
Hans did you ever do a write up about various Wenonah layups in the last 30 years?

I know jacksquat about them and find material history kind of interesting. I have Charlies info on Bell but that's about it.

Sorry for the hijack..
 
Banksiana
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08/02/2014 09:59PM  
Hans-

If it's an 83 might it be one of the original "racing" advantages which were somewhat narrower? I have to say that I don not remember seeing a glass/core or tuff weave/core boat that early.
 
08/02/2014 10:08PM  

quote Banksiana: "Hans-

If it's an 83 might it be one of the original "racing" advantages which were somewhat narrower? I have to say that I don not remember seeing a glass/core or tuff weave/core boat that early."


I think you might be referring to the Advantage XL Banksiana. It may not be Tuf-weave, but I'm quite sure it's not an Advantage XL. The Advantage XL had much harder chines and a very discernible mold flash line that ran up the sides of the hull. I'm not seeing those features in the photos.

If it is in fact an 83', it's definitely an early version, because the Advantage was first released around 1982. I remember talking to Dave Kruger at a trade show in the early 80's about the Advantage XL, which he had on display in the Wenonah booth. The Advantage XL really peaked my interest, because sit & switch solo canoes of that ilk are what I like to paddle.

In the early 80's, Wenonah cataloged the "standard" Advantage, which was a "de-tuned" Advantage XL and featured the more gradual tumblehome that I'm seeing in Turlock's photos.

From what I remember, "Tuf-weave" wasn't really promoted until about 1985, although it was in the works for a few years before that.

Hans Solo
 
Turlock
 
08/04/2014 11:02AM  
I just spoke to Wenonah. It is a fiberglass ultralight.
 
BrianDay
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11/05/2020 03:08PM  
HansSolo: "
quote Banksiana: "Hans-

If it's an 83 might it be one of the original "racing" advantages which were somewhat narrower? I have to say that I don not remember seeing a glass/core or tuff weave/core boat that early."


I think you might be referring to the Advantage XL Banksiana. It may not be Tuf-weave, but I'm quite sure it's not an Advantage XL. The Advantage XL had much harder chines and a very discernible mold flash line that ran up the sides of the hull. I'm not seeing those features in the photos.

If it is in fact an 83', it's definitely an early version, because the Advantage was first released around 1982. I remember talking to Dave Kruger at a trade show in the early 80's about the Advantage XL, which he had on display in the Wenonah booth. The Advantage XL really peaked my interest, because sit & switch solo canoes of that ilk are what I like to paddle.

In the early 80's, Wenonah cataloged the "standard" Advantage, which was a "de-tuned" Advantage XL and featured the more gradual tumblehome that I'm seeing in Turlock's photos.

From what I remember, "Tuf-weave" wasn't really promoted until about 1985, although it was in the works for a few years before that.

Hans Solo"


Resurrecting this long dead thread. Been researching the Advantage lineage here at Wenonah. This is the information we have from our historic serial number files.

Original Advantage was a stock class racer. 16'8" long. Serial number prefix DC or DK. Produced 1982-1984.

Advantage XL was a faster, lower volume version. 16'10" long. Serial number prefix DL. Produced 1983-1984.

In '83 the original Advantage was shifted from the race category to the cruiser category in Wenonah's catalog. The Advantage XL took over as the race boat.

Current Advantage. 16'6" long. Deeper, rounder bow stem and altered tumblehome from original. Better suited to tripping. Serial Number prefix DK. Produced 1984-present.

As you can see, there was some overlap between original and current Advantage in the 1984 model year.

Best way to tell which version Advantage you might have is measuring length combined with model year shown in last two digits of the serial number.

--Brian from Wenonah
 
MReid
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11/05/2020 05:00PM  
Thanks Brian. I remember the XL, but never come across anyone familiar with it.
 
BrianDay
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11/06/2020 08:03AM  
MReid: "Thanks Brian. I remember the XL, but never come across anyone familiar with it."

You're welcome. The XL is one of many historic models that doesn't seem to have much information available. Fun to dig through old newsletters and workbooks and learn a thing or two about these boats.
 
mjmkjun
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11/09/2020 05:51PM  
bobbwca: "I have two advantages. Barleys old one in kevlar with white gell coat and the other is tuffweave.
Id have to check but if I remember right the tuffweave weighed 58 lbs"

Agree. I had an '87 Advantage that now has a new owner/home in Duluth/Detroit Lakes, MN. That canoe in tuffweave layup weighed 54 lbs +/- pound. It came with the old style yoke and a quickie red paint job which developed spider cracks a few years later. Glide is smooth and is fast when you want it to be.
 
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