Chat Rooms (0 Chatting)  |  Search  |   Login/Join
* For the benefit of the community, commercial posting is not allowed.
Boundary Waters Quetico Forum
   Listening Point - General Discussion
      Winch for steep portages     

Author

Text

AmarilloJim
distinguished member(2226)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/08/2020 11:23AM
Have any of you soloists devised a simple winch to help get your canoes up (or down) steep wet surfaces like Yum Yum, Burt or Louisa?
 
      Print Top Bottom Previous Next
Bushpilot
distinguished member(880)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/08/2020 12:13PM
I would think pulley system with 2 pullies and a rope one would pull. It would be easy to make or I am sure you could buy one. However it would be illegal in the bwca. It is a mechanical device take give you an advantage. Personally I could care less if someone used one.
 
MReid
distinguished member (227)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/08/2020 12:40PM
If necessary, a 3:1 z-pulley could be used identical to that used in crevasse rescue. All it takes is two pulleys, a couple of carabiners, and a prussik loop. For down, just throw your rope around a tree, hip belay or an unwitting partner and lower away.
 
01/08/2020 02:36PM
I feel a single pulley will do and the most I have used was a carbiner instead of a pulley.
Honestly I just pulled the canoe up belaying it in case of a slip.

butthead
 
AmarilloJim
distinguished member(2226)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/08/2020 03:05PM
butthead: "I feel a single pulley will do and the most I have used was a carbiner instead of a pulley.
Honestly I just pulled the canoe up belaying it in case of a slip.


butthead"


Thanks
That's what I was thinking of doing
 
01/08/2020 05:36PM
Bushpilot: "I would think pulley system with 2 pullies and a rope one would pull. It would be easy to make or I am sure you could buy one. However it would be illegal in the bwca. It is a mechanical device take give you an advantage. Personally I could care less if someone used one."

Oh, No!! I've been using pulleys for years, usually in a 2:1 configuration, for my bear bag system. Please don't turn me in!

TZ
 
MReid
distinguished member (227)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/08/2020 06:37PM
Werner Herzog's "Fitzcarraldo" might provide some other options about boats and hills. Tough portage
 
mutz
distinguished member(1233)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/08/2020 07:12PM
TrailZen: "Bushpilot: "I would think pulley system with 2 pullies and a rope one would pull. It would be easy to make or I am sure you could buy one. However it would be illegal in the bwca. It is a mechanical device take give you an advantage. Personally I could care less if someone used one."


Oh, No!! I've been using pulleys for years, usually in a 2:1 configuration, for my bear bag system. Please don't turn me in!


TZ"



So have hundreds of others, we were checked by rangers while we were hanging our food using a pulley system and nothing was said.
 
RunningFox
senior member (61)senior membersenior member
 
01/08/2020 07:39PM
Yes, his name is Stu. :)
 
01/08/2020 09:04PM
mutz: "TrailZen: "Bushpilot: "I would think pulley system with 2 pullies and a rope one would pull. It would be easy to make or I am sure you could buy one. However it would be illegal in the bwca. It is a mechanical device take give you an advantage. Personally I could care less if someone used one."



Oh, No!! I've been using pulleys for years, usually in a 2:1 configuration, for my bear bag system. Please don't turn me in!



TZ"




So have hundreds of others, we were checked by rangers while we were hanging our food using a pulley system and nothing was said."


Yes, me too. Rangers observed it and said nothing. It never occurred to us to not use pulleys for hanging.
 
inspector13
distinguished member(4073)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
01/09/2020 09:15AM

The text for prohibited uses of wilderness areas states: “...there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.”

Note that the Wilderness Act prohibits “motorized equipment” and “other form(s) of mechanical transport”. Simple pulleys are not motorized, and within the context of the law, would not be a form of mechanical transport, like portage wheels would be. If simple tools like pulleys were illegal, wouldn’t wedges, levers, and the various examples of inclined planes also be?

 
Bushpilot
distinguished member(880)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/09/2020 11:02AM
So you are saying pulling a boat with pullies and a winch across land wont be transporting it?? I personally think it would be transporting it.

Don't shot the messenger. like I said I could careless if you used a pully and winch system.
My father was ticketed for illegal display of a flag in the bwca because it was hanging horizontal and not vertical. It was thrown out because it was BS by a "bad" forest services employee. I am just saying I have been harassed by the fs trying to get me on anything, dozens or times. I have never been ticketed for anything in any wilderness area.

What about a battery operated Sawzall? Or battery chain saw? Neither are for transportation.
 
inspector13
distinguished member(4073)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
01/09/2020 11:57AM

I’m addressing the use of pulleys for hanging food in the BWCAW, not AmarilloJim’s question which asks about portages in Quetico. I don’t know all the rules for Quetico and haven’t been there since 1984. As for use of the use of chain saws and such in the BWCAW, I bet all would agree those are “motorized equipment”. There is no text saying gas powered motorized equipment.

 
Bushpilot
distinguished member(880)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/09/2020 12:28PM
13 I was also talking about the B-dub. I agree on the saws. How about cpap? Wheel chair?
 
inspector13
distinguished member(4073)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
01/09/2020 01:01PM

Even though I’m not a lawyer, it would seem to me that both of those would be illegal in the BWCAW as the two Wilderness Acts are written, unless exemptions existed somewhere. I know Congress sometimes revisits the rules occasionally, like what happened in 1998 when they reopened two of the motorized portages. I haven’t heard of any other changes since then.

 
01/09/2020 01:45PM
Wow, I guess that rules out diabetics with insulin pumps then, if suddenly cpaps were illegal.

I think that's a pretty far stretch you've taken, bush....
 
Bushpilot
distinguished member(880)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/09/2020 01:50PM
Maybe you should ask me how I feel before you troll me. I have no problem cpap. Or like I said I no problem about pullies. I could careless if a motor boat went around US Point!

How do you feel about wheel chairs in the bwca? Or a motorized scooter for a "crippled" person?
 
AmarilloJim
distinguished member(2226)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/09/2020 02:25PM
You guys are funny.
I think cabin fever has set in early this year.
 
A1t2o
distinguished member(962)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/09/2020 04:01PM
inspector13: "Note that the Wilderness Act prohibits “motorized equipment” and “other form(s) of mechanical transport”. Simple pulleys are not motorized, and within the context of the law, would not be a form of mechanical transport, like portage wheels would be. If simple tools like pulleys were illegal, wouldn’t wedges, levers, and the various examples of inclined planes also be? "
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and point out that they did make the wheel illegal already when they said no portage wheels.

Really though, transport is the key word here. A pulley system is not a form of transportation. If you did somehow rig up a giant pulley contraption to pull you across the lake or make it into an elevator then I would say that yes, that would be illegal. In this situation, a pulley is only being used to assist with an incline, not as a mode of transportation.
 
jhb8426
distinguished member(1150)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/10/2020 12:48AM
AmarilloJim: "You guys are funny.
I think cabin fever has set in early this year."


++2
 
01/10/2020 08:37AM
Bushpilot: "So you are saying pulling a boat with pulleys and a winch across land wont be transporting it?? I personally think it would be transporting it. Don't shoot the messenger. like I said I could careless if you used a pulley and "

Bushpilot, my attempt at humor (my use of pulleys for my bear bag hang) appears to have started snarky comments toward you; I apologize for the tone of my original comment.

AmarilloJim, to address your original point (hopefully without getting further into the weeds), here's a Z-Drag setup that uses supplies that (in lighter form) most of us have with us on paddling trips, and does not use pulleys.
TZ
 
Bushpilot
distinguished member(880)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/10/2020 08:54AM
Trailzen, no worries. I don't take to much here personal. I think it is good to spark new conversation. I do care what others think and like to hear it in a mature way. In my world there is no better way to learn than from first hand knowledge. I have been driven in that direction with todays media.

After all if we just reply with our thoughts and don't try to understand others we would never learn anything. I will also say I am not very good at putting my words in to thoughts and I appreciate others patience with that
 
riverrunner
distinguished member(1816)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/10/2020 12:55PM
Bushpilot: "

What about a battery operated Sawzall? Or battery chain saw? Neither are for transportation."


And most likely legal to use.
 
firemedic5586
distinguished member (180)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/14/2020 07:40PM
Can I kick the ant hill..


25 horse motor on a 21 Foot Lund Barron while on lets say Fall lake BWCA side, AOK.

Same lake, same motor, but mounted on a pontoon boat; bring your check book because your going to get pinched. To quote @Bushpilot "How do you feel about wheel chairs in the bwca? Or a motorized scooter for a "crippled" person?" I'm pretty sure I know how the USFS feels.

 
nooneuno
distinguished member(523)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/18/2020 04:26PM
cabin fever......Now you guys have me picturing the FS rangers confiscating someones wheelchair, while stranding him on a portage trail.
 
firemedic5586
distinguished member (180)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/19/2020 07:53AM
nooneuno: "cabin fever......Now you guys have me picturing the FS rangers confiscating someones wheelchair, while stranding him on a portage trail."

They may not confiscate it, but they'll fine them..
 
Bushpilot
distinguished member(880)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/19/2020 09:01AM
MECHANIZED TRAVEL NOT ALLOWED
In addition to the BWCA being motor-free, mechanized transportation is not allowed. This includes sail boats, sail boards, paddleboats, pontoon boats, bicycles, wheeled carts, and portage dollies. Mechanical assistance is only permitted over the following: International Boundary, Four-Mile Portage, Vermilion-Trout Lake Portage, Fall-Newton-Pipestone Bay Portages into Basswood Lake, and Prairie Portage.

I have never read anything on wheel chairs one way or another. But a wheel borrow is banned even for portage repair, because it has a wheel. I guess it would depend on the fs worker. Witch is not a good idea for anyone. It should be spelled out. Could be a slippery slope. Motorized wheel chair okay? What if I want to use a wheelchair because I am a little over weight?

Also leave your horse and pack mule at home.


STOCK USE PROHIBITED

* POSSESSING OR USING SADDLE, PACK, OR DRAFT ANIMALS, EXCEPTING SLED DOGS, ARE PROHIBITED ON ALL FOREST DEVELOPMENT TRAILS OR PORTAGE TRAILS EXCEPT TROUT LAKE PORTAGE.
 
rtbaum
distinguished member (102)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/19/2020 03:54PM
Bushpilot: Mechanical assistance is only permitted over the following: International Boundary, Four-Mile Portage, Vermilion-Trout Lake Portage, Fall-Newton-Pipestone Bay Portages into Basswood Lake, and Prairie Portage.




Just a rhetorical question....Would a wheel chair, mechanized or not, be legal on these portages?
 
Zwater
distinguished member(558)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/19/2020 04:44PM
Wow. Let's all get out and enjoy the winter!
 
firemedic5586
distinguished member (180)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/19/2020 05:09PM
I can't get the link on this web sight..

Here is a link to an article regarding the USFS concerning walking trails and track chairs.. You can extrapolate (SP) to the BWCA.

https://www.grandrapidsmn.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/access-denied-to-walking-trails-for-disabled-veteran/article_8a6041be-d4d6-11e5-95e2-6b77f57a9b92.html?fbclid=IwAR2qQK7cxbhfegZlK9JDcae38D54KAN0lfAM9mV9wCW5i9GRpBKGz-iHhoA#.VsTK0AmCobE.facebook



Bushpilot: "MECHANIZED TRAVEL NOT ALLOWED
In addition to the BWCA being motor-free, mechanized transportation is not allowed. This includes sail boats, sail boards, paddleboats, pontoon boats, bicycles, wheeled carts, and portage dollies. Mechanical assistance is only permitted over the following: International Boundary, Four-Mile Portage, Vermilion-Trout Lake Portage, Fall-Newton-Pipestone Bay Portages into Basswood Lake, and Prairie Portage.


I have never read anything on wheel chairs one way or another. But a wheel borrow is banned even for portage repair, because it has a wheel. I guess it would depend on the fs worker. Witch is not a good idea for anyone. It should be spelled out. Could be a slippery slope. Motorized wheel chair okay? What if I want to use a wheelchair because I am a little over weight?


Also leave your horse and pack mule at home.



STOCK USE PROHIBITED


* POSSESSING OR USING SADDLE, PACK, OR DRAFT ANIMALS, EXCEPTING SLED DOGS, ARE PROHIBITED ON ALL FOREST DEVELOPMENT TRAILS OR PORTAGE TRAILS EXCEPT TROUT LAKE PORTAGE."



 
GraniteCliffs
distinguished member(1849)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/19/2020 10:26PM
Back to the original question: If I get to the point that I need to consider a pulley to get up that @^&%! rock slab on the Yum Yum portage I will give even greater consideration to abandoning canoeing or finding easier routes! I am old but nope, no winch for me.
 
billconner
distinguished member(7353)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
01/20/2020 08:40AM
In this USDS document it's pretty clear legitimate use if wheelchairs - manual or powered - are permitted in the BWCAW. One relevant passage:

" Mechanical Transport. Any contrivance for moving people or material in or over land, water, or air, having moving parts, that provides a mechanical advantage to the user, and that is powered by a living or nonliving power source. This includes, but is not limited to, sailboats, hang gliders, parachutes, bicycles, game carriers, carts, and wagons. It does not include wheelchairs when used as necessary medical appliances."

 
A1t2o
distinguished member(962)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
01/20/2020 09:19AM
GraniteCliffs: "Back to the original question: If I get to the point that I need to consider a pulley to get up that @^&%! rock slab on the Yum Yum portage I will give even greater consideration to abandoning canoeing or finding easier routes! I am old but nope, no winch for me.
"


I completely agree but with exemptions. I've been on portages where there is a significant drop to one side. If something happens and I need to ditch the canoe, I'm not going to worry about someone's opinion if I use a pulley system or winch to get it back up to the trail.

For the wheelchair issue, I think a person should be legal to use whatever medical assistance they require in any situation, but I also think that common sense should apply. If we are talking about a very simple portage that is flat and a wheelchair has no problem getting through, then good for them for getting out there. If it is not safe on a portage for a wheelchair though, I can see there being rules against using them. Sawbill to Alton for example is wide, flat and straight, but I would not suggest they go one portage further to Beth. I could also see a FS ranger giving a fine to someone for being dumb and attempting to do something that is potentially dangerous.
 
01/20/2020 11:26AM
USFS is a federal agency and the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) would apply to them as it requires reasonable accommodations for people with disabilities. Wilderness Experience in the Twin Cities has conducted wilderness trips for people with disabilities for decades in BWCA as well as many other wilderness areas.
 
01/20/2020 09:15PM
deerfoot: "USFS is a federal agency and the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) would apply to them as it requires reasonable accommodations for people with disabilities. Wilderness Experience in the Twin Cities has conducted wilderness trips for people with disabilities for decades in BWCA as well as many other wilderness areas."

USFS and ADA
 
01/21/2020 02:04PM
tg: "deerfoot: "USFS is a federal agency and the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) would apply to them as it requires reasonable accommodations for people with disabilities. Wilderness Experience in the Twin Cities has conducted wilderness trips for people with disabilities for decades in BWCA as well as many other wilderness areas."


USFS and ADA "


Interesting. Thanks for the clarification.
 
      Print Top Bottom Previous Next