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Tomcat
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02/27/2020 12:07PM
 
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Soledad
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02/27/2020 01:26PM
I think that if you have good information or experience to refute a false claim then you should. We are here to inform and to learn.
 
treehorn
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02/27/2020 01:43PM
Can you cite any examples?

Sometimes communicating online is hard. And what you think you are stating as a plainly obvious fact might come across as more of an opinion. Or, someone might not see it as such a plainly obvious fact.
 
02/27/2020 01:52PM
It seems to me, after many years of participation on this board, that most people are looking for information, but there are also a lot of ways to skin a possum, so to speak. Many of us are set in our ways with our equipment and while a good-natured suggestion (be it either fact or opinion) from someone else is usually accepted, a lot depends upon the manner in which it is offered. The "tone", if you will.

Most of our threads don't become contentious unless there is name-calling, or an effort to make someone feel stupid, uninformed, incorrect. Yes, a lot of BS goes on around here, but most of it is not harmful, even if sometimes we are very wrong in another person's opinion. :-)

My husband and I did wilderness canoe tripping for 43 years before retiring to cabin weeks in 2014. We started out with NO gear, just a conglomeration of stuff we scrounged from friends and family. Ungodly wrong stuff. I actually did my first canoe trip with a little water-skiing belt instead of a real PFD! We bought gear, and in the four decades some of it was still in use at the end, and some had been replaced/removed/upgraded. We didn't always do things correctly by most people's standards but we had a wonderful time. It was a four-decade learning experience.

 
Tomcat
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02/27/2020 01:58PM
 
cyclones30
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02/27/2020 02:10PM
If something is obviously false, in a setting like this I'd almost hope someone would correct them. Say....someone asks about taking a group of 10 and the next poster says go for it. That's not legal and obviously wrong as you said....I'm hoping someone replying down the line would correct that. (To help the original poster) and person that was wrong
 
Duckman
distinguished member (348)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/27/2020 02:12PM
Fact: Every camping pillow out there will let you down and is not worth the cost! Just stuff whatever you have that's soft in a stuff sack and live with it.

Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

On most everything else there is room for disagreement and good discussion!
 
thegildedgopher
distinguished member(511)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/27/2020 02:27PM
As a relative noob I appreciate when people take the time to clarify/correct false or misleading information. I wouldn't hesitate to share your experience and knowledge, I think that's what makes this site great.
 
Jackfish
Moderator
 
02/27/2020 02:37PM
Many people, when answering the question of "What's the best ____________?" answer with the item that they own with no regard or knowledge of competitive items. It's natural - people are loyal to what they spent their money on. It's a way of justifying the spend.

There are a few people here on the board who have truly studied and have strong knowledge of (for example) canoes, packs, tents, tarps, stoves, etc. These are the folks who's opinions mean the most to me. They've truly investigated the features and benefits of differing brands of similar products and made the best buying decision they could make. Doesn't mean their "right decision" is the right decision for me, but I'm surely going to weigh their thoughts carefully before I buy.

If you have studied different gear items and see someone's post that is clearly wrong or you had a way different experience with it, post your differing viewpoint. Nothing is learned from folks who don't offer a knowledgeable counterpoint.
 
straighthairedcurly
distinguished member (442)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/27/2020 02:43PM
I think if it is incorrect information in terms of actual material or the size/weight of something it is worth speaking up.

Anything else is probably open to interpretation as being opinion in terms of how something performs for someone (waterproofness, durability, comfort, ease of use, stability, etc.). Most information I see on this site falls into this second category and you would just be argumentative if you tried to "correct" someone.

I pretty much assume most of what I read is opinion. Granted it is opinion based on experience so I like reading it, but I take it with a grain of NaCl.
 
Tomcat
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02/27/2020 03:19PM
 
Blatz
distinguished member(1234)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/27/2020 04:05PM
You basically did what you're commenting about in regards to the plastic bag liners in packs. Just to be clear when you say all tripping situations. Are you referring to all BW tripping or ALL tripping situations? It seems to me that when people recommend things here it's assumed its BW related. Like many, I've used the thick plastic bags in the BW for close to 30 years and yes I have, and will continue to recommend that process. I'm sure there's some tripping situations elsewhere where another method would be more appropriate. Sayings it misleading, laughable, and false is an opinion, when I believe you where trying to make a factual statement.
 
02/27/2020 04:11PM
Tomcat: "treehorn: "Can you cite any examples?



Sometimes communicating online is hard. And what you think you are stating as a plainly obvious fact might come across as more of an opinion. Or, someone might not see it as such a plainly obvious fact."



I feel that serious conversations should include both opinions and quantifiable facts.


Example:


Statement such as waterproof and unbreakable or bombproof are absolutes and imply perfection and are therefore unobtainable. All equipment and procedures have a point of failure. Equipment such as dive watches are quantified as water resistant to a specific depth.


The point of failure required is dependent on the intended purpose. Waterproofing equipment for underwater submarine lockout or extended waterborne military operations may requre a higher degree of capability than rain proofing a backpack for a canoe trip.


It has often been stated that a plastic trash bag will offer complete waterproof protection. I agree that a plastic trash bags can provide adequate protection for some conditions but it is misleading, laughable, and false to state that it offers adaquate protection for all tripping styles.


I often include photos in order to clearify and prove my point and still members deny the facts. If a person wants to carry a parachute bag with shoulder straps and I prefer to carry a backpack I can accept that but to state that my backpack is difficult to stow in my canoe or lift out of my canoe is aggravating. I simply set it in place and lift out, look at the photos.


"


Try Boot Sugestions as an example, a bit long but I got peeved with GearGuy and some misleading opinions.
I too attempt to separate opinion and fact, and willingly admit I do not always follow what others prefer, tend to be specific if possible, and as I get older I am more willing to stretch politeness to establish a point. Absolutist statements just get me going. Good thing I prefer the hermit lifestyle!
Tomcat, I have noticed nothing controversial in your posting. I admire your DIY abilities. Keep it up.

butthead

PS: Just noticed the deletion of your post in the DIY gear forum, I can be slow sometimes!
Jump back in and keep posting, you have made a positive impact! bh
 
andym
distinguished member(4596)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
02/27/2020 05:05PM
I'd suggest a few principles (for most online discussions):
1) put your ideas out there and let people judge for themselves. Don't try to convince other people to the point where they post that they have changed their minds.. It is a waste of time and leads to arguments. But if your information is well put then it will convince a lot of silent readers who will use your ideas.

2) remember that a lot of people write very brief messages and may be leaving out key info. When info is left out it is probably best to assume that people mean standard BW use and reasonable tolerances under those conditions.

3) remember that there are a lot of people reading who don't post or may not respond to a particular message. The info you provide is getting used more than you may realize.
 
02/27/2020 06:00PM
Tomcat: "Spartan2: "It seems to me, after many years of participation on this board, that most people are looking for information, but there are also a lot of ways to skin a possum, so to speak. Many of us are set in our ways with our equipment and while a good-natured suggestion (be it either fact or opinion) from someone else is usually accepted, a lot depends upon the manner in which it is offered. The "tone", if you will.

Most of our threads don't become contentious unless there is name-calling, or an effort to make someone feel stupid, uninformed, incorrect. Yes, a lot of BS goes on around here, but most of it is not harmful, even if sometimes we are very wrong in another person's opinion. :-)

My husband and I did wilderness canoe tripping for 43 years before retiring to cabin weeks in 2014. We started out with NO gear, just a conglomeration of stuff we scrounged from friends and family. Ungodly wrong stuff. I actually did my first canoe trip with a little water-skiing belt instead of a real PFD! We bought gear, and in the four decades some of it was still in use at the end, and some had been replaced/removed/upgraded. We didn't always do things correctly by most people's standards but we had a wonderful time. It was a four-decade learning experience.

"

I was reluctant to post this question but am very appreciative of the many helpful responses.

Spartan2, your input was most helpful. I don't like my effort to help being dismissed as "stupid or uninformed" and will try not to convey that to others. I think that feeling inspired me to post this question.

Thank you,
John"


Hi John,
You seem like a very thoughtful person. And I also was reluctant to post what I did to you, but I looked at your photo in the gear thread of the backpacks, so I wondered if that was the impetus for your post.

I had rotator cuff surgery in mid-March of 2000, and we went on an nine-day canoe trip in mid-July of that year. Up until that point I had been carrying a Duluth pack, and I decided that I needed a more comfortable pack to help my shoulders. One with a hip belt. I shopped around and bought an inexpensive frame pack; and that pack served as my buddy for the next dozen years. I used to argue when people would post that it was impossible to fit a frame pack into a canoe because we had no trouble doing that in our Bell Northwind. Yes, it was a bit harder for my husband to unload sometimes, but on the other hand, it kept me carrying a big, heavy pack for another dozen years.

Everyone's situation is different. We never lined our packs with plastic, and we had a big rubber SeaLine bag that I also carried over many a portage. I loved that bag--it sat behind me in the canoe, upright, and I could lean back against it occasionally to rest my arthritic spine. We double-portaged and until our trip in 2012 when we had some help, I always made two carries with big packs.

This isn't to say that the way we did it was 'correct', it was just the way we did it. And, as I said above, we had a wonderful time. :-)

I am pleased that you think my comments before were helpful. There are many fine people on this site and some of them know a LOT more than I do about canoe-tripping. Some know less, too. But, like any "family", we get into squabbles and we have disagreements. Try to put up with us for awhile and you will get to love us (most of us, anyway.) ;-)
 
jwartman59
distinguished member(3057)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/27/2020 06:11PM
Gear and equipment opinions. Who cares, maybe someone will get a wet sleeping bag. Advice on tripping matters based on limited experience, especially when they are incorrect get me a bit worked up. On the bwca Facebook page a poster has posted several videos with some shots of pulling through a rapid rather than taking the portage. Leaving this video up was a disservice to anyone hoping to use this site to learn canoe tripping skills. There have been a few posts recently on this site that have offered what I consider very questionable advice. A recent thread about running a canoe up rapids comes to mind.
 
bobbernumber3
distinguished member(1329)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/27/2020 06:33PM
In my opinion, it's a fact that this board has the best information to consider when making choices to help improve your canoeing, camping, and fishing experiences in the BWCA/Q.

I think the OP feels his fact(s) on some previous post have been "stomped on" by another person's perception of right and wrong.

I had to check the OP's profile guessing he has been a member less than 2 years. That appears to be the fact.

I would recommend to the OP to hang in with the group, continue to contribute your knowledge, facts, and opinions as best you can and don't worry about the occasional
disagreement and other points of view.

And a backpack is difficult to pull out of a canoe... IMO.
 
02/28/2020 06:26AM
Probably best just to state your opinion. One cannot account for all camping styles in every post. If a person has been to the bwca they get it. If they are going on their first trip they will get it...one way or another! :) But seriously, the odds they are going to have major problems are low, and if they are researching on this site...lower still.

If someone were advocating something truly dangerous.... take "I check for gas leaks with my lighter." (DO NOT DO THAT!!!) then I would point that out.
 
ZaraSp00k
distinguished member(1400)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/28/2020 06:40AM
if it weren't for people's opinion, this forum would be pretty sparse
 
Northwoodsman
distinguished member(1350)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/28/2020 08:21AM
Facts can vary by circumstances and situations. For example most people know (or assume) that water boils at 212°F; so is it fact, opinion, or BS? It's a fact if you are boiling water at sea level, I wouldn't say that it's opinion or BS if you are at 10,000 feet altitude, it's simply incorrect information. If one person has a pair of leather boots that last for 20 years when recommended care is taken and another person has a pair of leather boots that last only 5 years when recommended care is taken, is one fact and the other either opinion or BS? No, they are both facts, but probably better termed "experience". When posting on public forums like this where some asks for an opinion, or experience, or for a recommendation I find it best to reiterate either: 1) "In my opinion...", or 2) "My experience...". When a topic becomes controversial I stop posting because when you quit stoking the fire it will eventually burn out.

There is enough stress in most of our lives and we come to BWCA.com for relief from that, for pleasure, to learn, and to communicate with others who have similar interests. I go back and look at older posts all the time and recognize a lot of names that aren't here today, I wonder what happened to them? Did they lose interest in canoeing, camping, fishing, etc.? Did they learn everything that there was to know? Do they not have time to post anymore? Or are they afraid to post because they are afraid of being attacked or starting a heated debate? I come here daily for information and for a wide range of opinions to help me make choices. It's my brief get-away from what's going on around me and my happy-place to dream about my next trip.

In my opinion topics like this "clear the air" and make people think about their "tone" and reflect on the way that they respond. Thanks Tomcat.
 
02/28/2020 09:07AM
FACT:
There was this one time I thought I was wrong.....


but then I realized I was mistaken.

;-)
 
mrballast
senior member (53)senior membersenior member
 
02/28/2020 09:46AM
My principles for posts and replies to keep myself in check:

1. Only post when adding something new to a thread or forum. A "+1" is a simple addition.
2 Be polite.
3. If something devolves to argument, disengage immediately.
4. Own mistakes, typos, misunderstandings if you cause them. ( And sometimes if you dont).

To the OP:
It is my opinion that everything is subjective, yet there is truth.
Facts are true.
Opinions come from the interpretations of facts.
BS is an interpretation without a fact
...like a punchline without a joke.

The first two are ok. Not the third.
 
nofish
distinguished member(2615)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/28/2020 10:17AM
Tomcat:
I often include photos in order to clearify and prove my point and still members deny the facts. If a person wants to carry a parachute bag with shoulder straps and I prefer to carry a backpack I can accept that but to state that my backpack is difficult to stow in my canoe or lift out of my canoe is aggravating. I simply set it in place and lift out, look at the photos"


I think there can often times be a bit of confusion around what is fact and what is opinion. In your example above you could be talking about a bit of both.

It is a fact that you carry a backpack and don't find it difficult to stow or lift out of your canoe.

It may be someone elses opinion that the same exact backpack IS difficult to lift out of THEIR canoe. You and the other person are not the same people so what they find difficult you may find easy. What fits in your canoe may not fit in theres since it could be dependent on what other gear it needs to fit around.

For example I do not find it difficult to reach things off the top shelf. However, I'm 6'4". Someone that is 5'4" probably wont share my definition of what is easy to reach.

I would say when discussing gear performance there is very little in the way of facts. Facts are things like "Its is blue, it has 4 buckles, it is 12" x 12". Opinions are things like "its easy to lift, its comfortable, it fits well".

I guess all that I'm saying is that something stated as a fact even with evidence to back it up may not always be a fact. I can back up all of my opinions with evidence that supports my opinion but that doesn't make it a fact.
 
A1t2o
distinguished member(920)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/28/2020 10:42AM
I think the important thing to keep in mind here is that there is no "right" answer when you are talking about subjective topics like what is best or what works for you. All we are doing when it comes to topics like that are sharing our experiences and wisdom. Even the example of difficulty in taking a pack in and out of a canoe. Without addressing all the variables, it is impossible to have a purely factual conclusion. You have to look at the strength of a person doing the lifting, how used to the action they are, how much the pack weighs, the design of the canoe, their footing, preferred orientation, and so on.

No need to be even remotely concerned about someone else's experience contradicting yours, since there are many ways to do things. You aren't even trying to get the person with a different opinion to agree with you. The other readers that have not already made up their minds and are looking for advice are the ones you are trying to inform. You only need to be concerned about allowing others to be able to see more sides of the issue. After all this is not going to affect your trip, unless you end up learning something and end up changing things on your end because of the new information.
 
02/28/2020 12:30PM
Simply nothing to concern myself about.
 
02/28/2020 06:48PM
Keep posting, stand by your experience and thoughts, try not to “right fight” people either take your advice or don’t...doesn’t change your life either way...you develop a thicker skin, and try not to take stuff personal. There is a lot of sarcasm and tongue and cheek that occurs in posts but gets lost online as well.

People change too.

I remember a poster that ripped on anyone that used Kevlar, told stories like every Kevlar canoe he came across was “ripped to shreds”. Same poster basically called people idiots...paraphrasing...that went to Quetico...guy annoyed me to heck. Then I met him in person and he was a pretty cool guy...go figure. Oh and he also eventually bought a Kevlar canoe and only went to Quetico:)

T
 
02/28/2020 07:17PM
My personal opinion is you can’t win, there is no easy way of telling people they are factually wrong, they get offended and act like children. It’s very hard to deliver such a sentiment without crossing a line and offending someone who is wrong, they simply don’t want to hear it.

Most people are horrible debaters because they let their emotions get ahold of them while simultaneously ignoring facts. In my experience when someone is wrong they will often flat out ignore your reply and continue to spew misinformation. Then when you get on them about it, try to elicit a pointed rebuttal, people start to think you are badgering them, start telling you to give it up, like some sort of Internet forum “mercy rule” but that’s the funny part! Often when that happens, and it’s clear you have made your case to the vast majority, the person that is wrong still won’t admit it and still frequently sticks to their guns despite overwhelming proof that they have made a dumb statement.

So in short it’s not worth it, they will almost never admit to being wrong and you’ll likely end up looking like a jerk trying to get them to say it...... not that I have any experience with that.
 
riverrunner
distinguished member(1792)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/29/2020 02:41AM
If one wants to get discussion going start a tread about mining, bears, wolves, and guns. Then one will see the rocks and fur fly.
 
x2jmorris
distinguished member(1078)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/29/2020 07:25AM
I think everyone's response on a community forum is only opinion. Throw all the facts out that you want but when it comes down to it, it is almost always opinion or should be treated as such.
 
02/29/2020 07:59AM
Then there is the guy that throws out a devils advocate and a different opinion just to stir the pot. Haha. I’ll do that some when you get the my way or the highway conversation going. No “way” is usually right for everyone. Like saying Northstar or Wenonah are the only canoe for everybody. In “fact” very few things are 100% right for everybody. Just toss out your opinion of “fact” and everyone can pipe up their own. And we are all able to play around and find what works for us. You’ll learn pretty fast the real fact people on things. Hans Solo is good for canoe facts. Butthead on stoves and most everything. Haha. You’ll get the oh if you put on skid plates you’ll double the weight of your canoe... like everyone puts on the kit like they sell without trimming to their needs like many do. So what! It works for them. Boots or sandals... people are opinionated and well “facts” depend on circumstances sometimes. Our bodies are different then each other also.
 
02/29/2020 08:25AM
YOU stirring the pot? Ben? Unthinkable. :-)

I agree with what you have said, but I think we lost the participation of the OP a long time ago.
 
x2jmorris
distinguished member(1078)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/29/2020 09:45AM
Spartan2: "YOU stirring the pot? Ben? Unthinkable. :-)


I agree with what you have said, but I think we lost the participation of the OP a long time ago."


Unless he subscribed and is getting bombarded with emails
 
02/29/2020 01:10PM
I have watched Ben stir pots and he is very good at it. Especially spaghetti sauce!

butthead
 
bobbernumber3
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02/29/2020 06:51PM
Spartan2: "YOU stirring the pot? Ben? Unthinkable. :-)


I agree with what you have said, but I think we lost the participation of the OP a long time ago."


I was hoping to hear again from the OP on this discussion. Several very good points have been brought up. What does OP find useful or interesting?
 
LindenTree
distinguished member(2294)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
02/29/2020 07:20PM
butthead: "I have watched Ben stir pots and he is very good at it.

butthead"


Agreed ;-)
 
Tomcat
distinguished member (438)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/02/2020 10:00AM
 
03/02/2020 11:55AM
John is it, hey Tomcat... keep posting. You have to realize there are many more people reading comments that actually comment. Your ideas, facts, ideas are not tossed by the wayside by everyone. I’m guessing at least one or more people... and usually several or many will take your ideas/ facts to heart and even implement them at some point. There are many of us that maybe don’t hear the “fact” part of things or whatever. Guys like you, ragged, Butthead... well maybe not Butthead... haha... yes Butthead... are listened to way more then any of you realize. I can about guarantee many minds have taken to heart ideas that seemed like so many have poo pooed. Look at us people from Minnesota... we root for the Vikings... we’re good at saying Vikings rule and /or whatever trash talk the Packers. They beat us and we’re like Vikings rule! Packer fans are like, but we beat you! (Fact!) And we’re like... so?... haha! Keep stating “facts”, and I can guarantee you’ll gain respect here... unless you are a packer fan. Bears fans? Well, they don’t threaten us or our thinking. Hahaha!
 
Tomcat
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03/02/2020 01:17PM
 
Blatz
distinguished member(1234)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
03/02/2020 05:16PM
Tomcat: "Blatz: "You basically did what you're commenting about in regards to the plastic bag liners in packs. Just to be clear when you say all tripping situations. Are you referring to all BW tripping or ALL tripping situations? It seems to me that when people recommend things here it's assumed its BW related. Like many, I've used the thick plastic bags in the BW for close to 30 years and yes I have, and will continue to recommend that process. I'm sure there's some tripping situations elsewhere where another method would be more appropriate. Sayings it misleading, laughable, and false is an opinion, when I believe you where trying to make a factual statement."


Blatz, You are correct. My wording was very poorly choosen. It is clear that it offended you and I am sure others. I am sorry and will try to do better in the future.


I was attempting to quickly come up with general examples so as not to place a members name to them. In my haste I let my emotions on the topic show through. Waterproofing is a topic I felt I had helpfull information about and in the past when I tried to add my input I was, as Spartan 2 pointed out, made to feel "stupid or uninformed". I was directing the term laughable at those I felt had first done so to me. It was and is wrong and I thank you for calling me out on it.


I started this topic sincerely seeking honest responses and am very pleased. I thank everyone again. The day after posting I left on vacation and have been driving long hours and had no time to read the responses.


John"
No apology needed and I wasn't offended at all. Like someone said. There's more than one way to skin a cat ( not sure where that saying evolved from) I think many, myself included get very lazar focused on the way we do things, and what has worked for us. I like to share that info with others.
 
03/03/2020 01:18PM
John, It's a FACT that a large proportion of OPINION is primarily BS.

Well at least in my little world. And a shout out at Ben as long as I'm typing ( ok I have advanced to the 3 finger method) the old fart.

butthead
 
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