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      NWC Excurzion builders?     

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CabSauv
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04/05/2020 08:36AM
I started my Excurzion build but almost immediately ran into a problem. Does anybody have a set of Excurzion forms? I need to check my measurements on forms 1 and 2, and 14 and 15 as something seems to be off.

There seems to be "pinch" between form two and the bow stem. So much so that the strips are extremely difficult to keep attached (stapled and glued) to form 1. In fact they break free from form 1 and from form 15: bow and stern.

I'm wondering if I cut those last two forms too narrow. I don't see how as I followed the pattern all the way. If anybody has a set of forms against which we can compare my measurements, it would be great.
 
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tumblehome
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04/05/2020 02:00PM
If I understand correctly, this is the location at the waterline where the strips pass the second to the last form, go over the last form and then get stapled to the stem.
Your problem is the strips won't hold on the last form.

If this is correct then there may not be a problem with your plans. Some canoe have a very fine entry and the strips don't flow smoothly alone this spot. They need to be pushed against the last form almost causing an indentation of the canoe at this spot. It will let up as you put on more strips. Once the canoe is rightside up, the fine entry will become apparent at this spot. You need to use a long brad of even a screw at this spot to get the strip against the form.
Is this what you are experiencing? Pictures would help too.

tumblehome
 
CabSauv
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04/06/2020 10:36AM
That summarizes it nicely though I’ve only done three strips and am having difficulty at the sheer. Do the pictures help?

 
mkdixon
senior member (100)senior membersenior member
 
04/06/2020 11:53AM
It's hard to tell from your pictures, but did you bevel the stem forms? If not, that would account for at least part of the problem you're having there.

Mark
 
mkdixon
senior member (100)senior membersenior member
 
04/06/2020 11:56AM
I looked closer at one of your pictures, you should stop now and bevel the stem forms. It appears you didn't do that.

Mark
 
tumblehome
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04/06/2020 01:04PM
Also, there is not stem and it's supposed to have one. Looking at the end form (the perpendicular form) notice how it is about 1" lower at the top of it where it meets your last form. You are supposed to have a stem piece.
This would also explain why the strips are not laying properly because you are stapling them to the form and they should get stapled to a stem piece. You're going to have to put the brakes on planking and make some stem pieces. They are customarily made from ash but really, you can make them from cedar strips laminated together. This part of your project is going to take some time

I am making assumptions based on your photos.

I promise, the fuss and time it takes to get this right will pay dividends later.
Tom
 
mkdixon
senior member (100)senior membersenior member
 
04/06/2020 01:12PM
The stem forms on NWC plans show the end of the stem, but the assumption is that the strips all come together at that point. Here are a couple pictures of what you need to do in case my words aren't clear.

Mark



 
mkdixon
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04/06/2020 01:15PM
tumblehome: "Also, there is not stem and it's supposed to have one. Looking at the end form (the perpendicular form) notice how it is about 1" lower at the top of it where it meets your last form. You are supposed to have a stem piece.
This would also explain why the strips are not laying properly because you are stapling them to the form and they should get stapled to a stem piece. You're going to have to put the brakes on planking and make some stem pieces. They are customarily made from ash but really, you can make them from cedar strips laminated together. This part of your project is going to take some time


I am making assumptions based on your photos.


I promise, the fuss and time it takes to get this right will pay dividends later.
Tom"


Tom and CabSauv, These particular plans are not designed to have an extra stem piece. That gap should be there and is part of the plan. Dennis at NWC says they like to have that space to fit the strips in that area. It confused me too when I saw the space, but he assured me that the plans are supposed to be used without stem pieces, for stemless construction. All CabSauv needs to do is to at this point is to bevel the stem forms so the strips lay flat. If you're not convinced then I would suggest contacting NWC to get the final word.

Mark
 
1JimD
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04/06/2020 03:53PM
I believe Mark is correct ! No inner stem and out stems. Taper your stem forms.

Tom is also correct ! Pull your strips off and correct before going any farther.

Stems should have the leading edge tapered, similar these.



This is called a stemless stem ! Much easier to build and plenty strong ! I've built all mine this way. If you can find a Minesota Canoe Assc. Builders book, you will see the same method.
 
tumblehome
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04/07/2020 06:05AM
Hey guys. No complaints on my end. I have not seen the plans for this canoe so I was making assumptions based on past experience. What you are describing makes sense.
I will defer to those that know about this particular model.

I was going to make mention that there might have been an issue with placing his last form (the perpendicular one) too far from the end of the strong back. This would have also caused his issue where the strips don't meet the second from properly.
 
mkdixon
senior member (100)senior membersenior member
 
04/07/2020 09:04AM
I agree with what you said above tumblehome. It's good cabsauv stopped where he did and that he noticed there was a problem. Having the stem form too far forward would have caused the same issue. I know you mentioned it above, many canoe designs have a hollow in that area, some more than others. Older canoes like my 1928 old town with recurved stems has a lot. I built a chestnut pal last year that has some near the sheer, but on that model it's supposed to be there.

Mark
 
Arcola
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04/07/2020 06:15PM
I went to the web site and looked at the pic they have, and from what I can see there is no inversion/cheek, or ..... in the hull there; doesnt mean there isn't tho. I for one would be inclined to just float over that form making it more full. I like them more full/flared . Makes for a dryer boat and there is nothing that says you have to staple the strip down just because it's there.
 
wingnut
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04/08/2020 06:36AM
I second the observation that tumblehome made on the stem form being too low also. That needs to be raised to fair out with the other forms and now is the time to do it before there are too many strips on to make the adjustment. I needed to do the same thing on my first build and found that it faired out with a 1/2" plywood shim under the form.Laying a strip on top of the forms will give you a visible of how high you should shim your form.
 
CabSauv
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04/10/2020 08:22AM
I'm not sure about raising the stem forms. As I understand it, the dotted lines representing the waterline need to line up from form to form. I've got those level from form to form. Thoughts?
 
CabSauv
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04/10/2020 08:26AM
According to Dan at NW Canoe, there should not be an indentation at that point...not for the Excurzion model. I'm pretty sure followed the lines on the patterns correctly. While I wasn't so good at cutting on the lines in kindergarten, I think I nailed it on these patterns.
 
CabSauv
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04/10/2020 08:35AM
I'll start with beveling as I did not do that. A router must be the best tool, yes?
 
tumblehome
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04/10/2020 01:09PM
just use a rasp.

It was also suggested that you can just skip that form that is causing troubles. I still don't know why that form is causing issues but if the fit of the strips look good, go with it.

-T
 
1JimD
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04/10/2020 07:35PM
Here is a link to how to cut strip ends on a Stemless build, such as yours. Page two.
Pearl
 
mkdixon
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04/11/2020 09:24AM
CabSauv: "I'll start with beveling as I did not do that. A router must be the best tool, yes?"

A rasp will work, or a block plane. I've used both.
 
1JimD
distinguished member (432)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
04/11/2020 10:11AM
The big advantage, and there are really several to bead and coving your strips, is simply strip alignment.
It's easy to see how the edges of the cove, do that, but when you get to the Bilge area of the hull that is where the bead and cove really shines.

I appreciate how little glue I have oozing out over the hull with bead and cove, saving me a lot of scraping and sanding to get a hull ready for glass.

Yeah, I'm sold on bead and cove !

Jim
 
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