I have done a lot of searching, but just can't seem to find what I'm looking for. I've done numerous trips to the BWCA and used to work at an outfitter (years ago). I love the MN II because of the tracking and speed, but my wife doesn't like how unstable it is especially being up front when we are unloaded.

We're trying to find a boat that is a more stable version of the MN II. I've paddled the Quetico 17 and I feel like I could stand up in the thing empty, it's so stable. Seemed like a barge when paddling from what I can remember. Never paddled the Champlain, but that seems like a good middle ground. I remember the Northwind 17 being just an easy boat to paddle.

When I get a boat, I'd probably go with the Q 18.5 or Northwind 18 because we've been taking our dog and I'd like the extra room. Just trying to see what people think. Not set on any style or brand, as long as I can get kevlar or carbon.

Given that you want to take a dog along on a trip, the Northwind 18 would be a good choice. My experience with that boat is limited to one week-long trip in Woodland Caribou Provincial Park (WXPP), so take that into account. There were just two of us, both around 160 pounds each, with 2 large packs, 2 day packs, and photography and fishing gear. The canoe had too much volume for us, but we managed and it paddled OK. It definitely has better initial stability than the MNII, but the MNII beats it in tracking and speed.

I've rented a Champlain a few times. The load-out each time was similar to the WCPP trip. I'm not a fan: it paddled like a barge with that load. I think that boat requires heavier people and heavier loads. Maybe it would be OK for you.

I rented a Quetico 17 for a 10-day BWCA trip in 2022. I thought it was OK, much better even unloaded than a Champlain with load. I own a Spirit II that is nominally similar to the Quetico 17. I like the way the Spirit II handles: it has a reasonable blend of good tracking, easy turning, good speed, and good initial and secondary stability loaded and unloaded. However, neither of those 17 foot boats compare to the tracking and speed of the MNII. Plus you need more room for your dog.

I suppose that the MNIII (3) could be a possibility for you, not knowing your typical trip load-out, but it is 20-feet long. I've rented it on several trips for 3 people and it is a great boat.

I have rented a MNII for several trips, but I have no experience with the longer boats from Souris River.

I agree with your wife on the perceived stability of the MNII. It may be because the bow in front of the seat is fairly narrow. I love the Wenonah Boundary Waters for stability. I have actually stood up in one on the water. I have balance issues and this canoe felt the best for me. The bow seat is almost a foot farther back in this model and there is no thwart behind the bow seat. There is an incredible amount of room in front of the bow paddler. The bow seat is fairly wide because of the placement which allows you to spread your knees apart which helps you feel more balanced. I owned one but sold it because I can't paddle any longer. If I were to buy another canoe it would be the Boundary Waters model.

This fall we decided to base camp more and had our dog. My father convinced us to bring four packs because that's what he always does. Figured why not bring the kitchen sink right? Never again. Two packs and fishing gear and that's it so we won't have a ton of stuff in the future. MAYBE three packs if we're feeling like a short portage trip. So the Northwind 17 or 18 might be the way we go.

Glad you had experience paddling the Champlain. Was afraid of it being like a barge. Hopefully this spring we'll find a place that has some and test them all out. I know Rutabaga Paddle Sports let's you do this.

Have a look and a demo paddle of the Greyduck 17 or 18. Very forgiving boats IMO.

I own a Champlain and have used it successfully in the BWCA for several years for multi-day to multi-week trips. It does handle better fully loaded, and is a pain to paddle in wind when lightly loaded since it will sit higher in the water and experience a sail effect.

It is not a barge - a Google search will show the Champlain in a theoretical comparison to the MN II is only slightly slower.

I've tested a MN II and I pity the bow paddler for the IMO uncomfortably small leg room. This is not a problem with the Champlain.

I own a Wenonah Sundowner 18 that has better initial stability than the Minnesota II, but still has good speed and tracking. It’s one of Wenonah’s retired models but is often available used since it was one their most popular canoes in the 1980’s.

I’ll cast another vote for the Northwind series. In my opinion they are much closer to the MN II in terms of speed and efficiency compared to the Queticos and larger Wenonahs. They may not be as stable as some of the “barges” out there but are plenty stable for trips/fishing/dogs etc.

The Seliga is probably shorter than what you want, but it is very stable when loaded.

A couple of years ago, I purchased a used NW17 without ever paddling one. I paddled it a few times before taking it on a BWCA trip. While I was very happy with its speed and tracking while moving, I was not happy with its stability while fishing. The initial stability was such that I always had to be "on guard" to not make a sudden move, or lean too far one way or the other. Fishing on that trip was more stressful than relaxing.

A week before my 2022 trip , I picked up a well used ultralight Champlain for $500.....one of those too good to pass up deals. I scrambled to get it ready in a couple of days and ended up paddling it from EP23 up to Crooked Lake and back. I fell in love with the Champlain on that trip. It wasn't as fast as the NW17, but so much more comfortable. It handled rough water better and was super stable while fishing. I sold the NW17 a couple weeks after coming home.

I've never paddled a MNII, but if you're looking for a stable boat to keep the Mrs happy, the Champlain is where it's at.

Based on your post I’d say the NW 17 or 18 is your best choice.

Any of the canoes you mentioned are good options.

T

I have a couple Wenonah Spirit IIs and have been very happy with the speed and stability - waves, dogs, and fishing. Only 42 lbs too.

We have an old Bell Northwoods that I absolutely love for when we bring the dog. The boat is fast, tracks well and stable. Plenty of room for gear and the dog.

Northstar Northwind 17 or 18. You’ll love them.

+1 for the Northstar Northwind series. The NW17 is the ideal tripping boat. Light, stable, strong tracking, and more leg room in the bow than the MNII. If you travel heavy or for extended durations, the NW18 is an option, but often too much boat for most folks.

Beast388: "A couple of years ago, I purchased a used NW17 without ever paddling one. I paddled it a few times before taking it on a BWCA trip. While I was very happy with its speed and tracking while moving, I was not happy with its stability while fishing. The initial stability was such that I always had to be "on guard" to not make a sudden move, or lean too far one way or the other."

My understanding is that the NW17 is the same hull as the Bell Northwind w/o the tumble home. I always felt very comfortable in that boat. No stability issues at all.

We have an MNII and if I'm honest, I'm not crazy about the stability either. May sell this one and take some advice from this thread.

Okinaw - You'll be happy in any bell/northstar boat.

If you can get the chance to paddle one, take it and it'll become your new favorite.

I've paddled in Wenonah Sundowner and MN II. The Bell's are just more comfortable and have a better mix of primary and secondary stability for my liking. I'll also add, any difference in speed is almost unnoticable. In our groups, the Bell's out paddle the Wenonah's 95% of the time. While the wenonah spec wise should be a slightly faster hull, I think the added comfort and ease of use in the Bell translates to more consistent paddling and transfer of power and overall ends up being a faster boat.

Souris river - been in one, felt sluggish to me.

Mad River - Second favorite for me.

What's nice about the Northwind compared to the MNII is the ample room in the bow.

You could try the Minn3.
I dont think it is any wider. But has more cargo space then the minn2. And its faster. I have paddled a 3 for 20 years and i am excited to try out a Northwind 20 in the spring after I fix some broken ribs.. Both the 3 and 20 are only 1.5ft longer than the 2, you get used to the extra length. The 20 has more volume than the 3 and probably more stable and will be safer on big water. My brother and I have paddled some big waves in the 3. And survived. But looking back. It wasn't a wise choice. We are now in our early 60's and crossed Beavehouse in big wind 2 years ago after waiting for 3.5 hours on shore.
I can show you the two side by side. And medicine lake in Plymouth is not frozen if you want to take the 3 for a paddle. And I have Seneca. The 20 is too broken to paddle.
I will see if I can find some side by side photos I took last spring.

Mn3 and Northwind 20 on the right

From top to bottom
23ft MN4
19'4"ft Seneca
17ft Souris River
16.5ft Prism
20ft Northwind
20'3" MN3

The Seneca, SR,Northwind i picked
up dirt cheap but need repairs.
The Prism keeps you on your toes. My butt never leaves the seat. And paddles pretty well. But will be trying a MN2 as a solo next spring.
The second picture is of my 6'1" brother carrying a 23' MN4

Also, you probably know this already but it’s worth mentioning that you’ve got to get to the optimum load weight in the canoe for optimal performance. Often times being a little cramped will make a boat perform way better than having too ample an amount of room but not enough weight.

I don’t think you can go wrong with a Bell/Northstar canoe. The way the color of the Kevlar matures to a rich caramel as well as the overall fit and finish are top notch. I’ve previously mentioned the superior design of the aluminum gunwales. I bought a Bell Magic with wood gunwales and now wish I had them on all my canoes. You’ll find what you like. There are some great suggestions by all the folks here!

Good luck in your search!

Speckled: "Okinaw - You'll be happy in any bell/northstar boat.


If you can get the chance to paddle one, take it and it'll become your new favorite.


I've paddled in Wenonah Sundowner and MN II. The Bell's are just more comfortable and have a better mix of primary and secondary stability for my liking. I'll also add, any difference in speed is almost unnoticable. In our groups, the Bell's out paddle the Wenonah's 95% of the time. While the wenonah spec wise should be a slightly faster hull, I think the added comfort and ease of use in the Bell translates to more consistent paddling and transfer of power and overall ends up being a faster boat.


Souris river - been in one, felt sluggish to me.


Mad River - Second favorite for me."

Thanks for the reply. I'll have to see if we can rent one somewhere. I'm not at all concerned with speed, I just want my bow partner (the wife) to be more comfortable.

In your original post you stated you loved the speed of the mn2.
Now it doesn't sound like a high priority.
You will definitely get different recommendation with speed not
Being a high priority.
I am removing my recommendation of the Mn3.
If your wife is in the bow. She just won't like it. No room. And being a bow paddler for most of my 40 years of trips. Any canoe feels far more stable when you have most of the canoe in front of you

timf1981: "Any canoe feels far more stable when you have most of the canoe in front of you"

Truth! My wife finally got that through to me by pointing out that when we are in waves she just gets to see them hit the bow while I get to see them interact with the entire canoe. So she has no idea of whether things are easy or close to getting over the gunwales. So it’s my job to communicate the appropriate level of calm.

Oh and she hates the bow of a MN2.

Personally I love the bow position of the MNI. Gunwales right on the hips for ease, strength and efficiency of paddling and balance. I possess size 13 feet and do not feel constrained. A wide seating station means that paddling requires shifting weight off center. Neither myself nor any of the folks I paddle with are particularly wide of beam so that might color my impressions.

If you can find a Sawyer 222 that hull might fit the bill. Every bit as fast as the MNII, much better in heavy conditions and with a full bow to accommodate a desire for space.

Not sure if there is such a thing as a more stable MN2.. obviously there are trade offs for every hull design. More stable canoes, sure.

I paddled an 18 foot Wenonah Sundowner for many years. Speed was good and I was comfortable with primary and secondary stability.

When I decided to upgrade to a lighter layup from my fiberglass Sundowner, I spent ALOT of time agonizing over what the replacement should be. A MN2 was the closest replacement but my requirements were changing.

I nervously bought a Wenonah Champlain. Yeah its a big wide beam, high shear line hull that is best with a heavy load. However this boat has been wonderful for my applications so far. Even lightly loaded it handles better than I expected. I like the versatility it provides. Heavy loads, dog, grand kid. Great primary stability for unloaded fishing. Handles waves much better the Sundowner/MN2. Symmetrical hull with 1.5 inch of rocker.

One of the deciding factors that tipped my decision to the Champlain is the sliding bow seat. Nice to assist with trim but I like the ability to slide it forward for smaller paddlers to narrow up the paddling station so they can actually get their paddle perpendicular to the water. Can't do that with any fixed seat boats.

So it will provide more room in the bow and provide more stability. Also remember that we are accustomed to seeing Wenonah hulls with their basic aluminum trim. If you don't want that these boats can have wood or versa gunwales from the factory and now have some new options for gelcoat.

Dolpho-

Hate to disagree but I don't think the 18' Sundowner handles or moves anything like the MNII. We rented one on a long Q trip and dubbed it the Sundogger- could not keep up (hardly able to keep in sight) of the MNII no matter how we changed up paddlers, high sides to catch all the wind, symmetrical diamond shaped hull that was unstable empty, loaded, still and in motion. Never understood that design. I'd rate the Champlain as a considerable upgrade. Every bit as fast (if not faster) and an absolute beast for eating loads and taking on tough seas. Offhand I don't think the Champlain is a symmetrical hull.

Banksiana: "Dolpho-


Hate to disagree but I don't think the 18' Sundowner handles or moves anything like the MNII. We rented one on a long Q trip and dubbed it the Sundogger- could not keep up (hardly able to keep in sight) of the MNII no matter how we changed up paddlers, high sides to catch all the wind, symmetrical diamond shaped hull that was unstable empty, loaded, still and in motion. Never understood that design. I'd rate the Champlain as a considerable upgrade. Every bit as fast (if not faster) and an absolute beast for eating loads and taking on tough seas. Offhand I don't think the Champlain is a symmetrical hull."

I have paddled a mn3 for 20 years . I have done 5 solo trips in it 5 3man trips and 10 2man trips. One year my brother and I took is friends mn2.
I thought it was a dog compared to the mn3.
I am so used to long boats . A 17 ft canoe looks tiny

I know the mn2 is not slow. My brother and I tested a Seneca this spring. I felt like we were in a barge.
It also depends if you will spend any time on large lakes

timf1981: "
I have paddled a mn3 for 20 years . I have done 5 solo trips in it 5 3man trips and 10 2man trips. One year my brother and I took is friends mn2.
I thought it was a dog compared to the mn3.
I am so used to long boats . "

Agree. If the paddlers can move it the MNIII rips.

Banksiana: "

timf1981: "
I have paddled a mn3 for 20 years . I have done 5 solo trips in it 5 3man trips and 10 2man trips. One year my brother and I took is friends mn2.
I thought it was a dog compared to the mn3.
I am so used to long boats . "

Agree. If the paddlers can move it the MNIII rips."

When I was solo and 52 years old I could get the mn3 up to 6mph in bursts and travel with a purpose a 4.25mph with kayak paddle. 100lbs og gear
The year before I rented a 15.5ft solo. Top weed was 3.5mph no matter how hard I paddled. Hull speed...

I just watched this very nice video. 3 guys in a mn4. They looked very comfortable. I tried to get my brother to agree to try a mn4 years ago.
I purchased two mn4 this fall.
I have an electric/solar experiment in mind.
Single and catamaran.
Can't wait to see how it paddles

Banksiana: "Dolpho-

Hate to disagree but I don't think the 18' Sundowner handles or moves anything like the MNII. We rented one on a long Q trip and dubbed it the Sundogger- could not keep up (hardly able to keep in sight) of the MNII no matter how we changed up paddlers, high sides to catch all the wind, symmetrical diamond shaped hull that was unstable empty, loaded, still and in motion. Never understood that design. I'd rate the Champlain as a considerable upgrade. Every bit as fast (if not faster) and an absolute beast for eating loads and taking on tough seas. Offhand I don't think the Champlain is a symmetrical hull."

I used a borrowed Kevlar Sundowner once over 20 years ago and completely agree. The guys in the MNII laughed and said we just didn't know how to paddle. After they tried it out they couldn't believe how unstable it felt. Some people seem to like them, so I don't know if the design changed at some point but I absolutely hated that thing. Granted, I was a novice at the time, but not completely green either.

Rented a Northwind 18 this year and really liked it. Seemed reasonably fast and felt solid in moderate weather. Two adults and a kid in it. Was not up against a MNII this time though.

plmn: "

Banksiana: "Dolpho-


Hate to disagree but I don't think the 18' Sundowner handles or moves anything like the MNII. We rented one on a long Q trip and dubbed it the Sundogger- could not keep up (hardly able to keep in sight) of the MNII no matter how we changed up paddlers, high sides to catch all the wind, symmetrical diamond shaped hull that was unstable empty, loaded, still and in motion. Never understood that design. I'd rate the Champlain as a considerable upgrade. Every bit as fast (if not faster) and an absolute beast for eating loads and taking on tough seas. Offhand I don't think the Champlain is a symmetrical hull."

I used a borrowed Kevlar Sundowner once over 20 years ago and completely agree. The guys in the MNII laughed and said we just didn't know how to paddle. After they tried it out they couldn't believe how unstable it felt. Some people seem to like them, so I don't know if the design changed at some point but I absolutely hated that thing. Granted, I was a novice at the time, but not completely green either.

Rented a Northwind 18 this year and really liked it. Seemed reasonably fast and felt solid in moderate weather. Two adults and a kid in it. Was not up against a MNII this time though. "

I'm with you on the sundowner - least favorite canoe from one of the top manufacturers that i've been in.

I love the Q 18.5, and have used one for 3 long BWCAW trips, but it might not feel fast if your wife isn't a super strong paddler? i.e. you might not be able to reach hull speed with it. Without another strong paddler it feels much slower than the MNII, even though it's the same length (but significantly wider).

The Sprit II is hard to beat for stability, I own one and have done numerous BWCAW/Quetico trips in it. Won't set any speed records, but super stable platform for fishing and plenty of space for gear. The Souris River Q 17'3" is similar but a touch faster IME.