BWCA Route ideas for me to "shadow" my daughter and her friends Boundary Waters Trip Planning Forum
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natieo
member (5)member
  
01/25/2025 09:04AM  
Good morning, canoe friends! My daughter has done a number of YMCA camp Widjiwagan trips for the last three years, including 17 days in the Quetico. She's planning a non-YMCA trip this year with that same Quetico group, so I'm pretty comfortable with their skillset and we're well-equipped apart from canoes.

Parameters:
- Mid June probably
- They want to bring a few "rookies", so I think we should travel about 3-4 hours a day, with a push day or two of hopefully not more 5h.
- I'm estimating 3 mph paddling, 2 mph portaging, double portage, 20 minutes total unloading / loading time per portage. Maybe less.
- ~5 travel days, one layover (we're not basecampers)
- Ideally a loop so we're not backtracking
- Nobody fishes, they want solitude and nature
- They've done lots on the Eli side of the BWCA so I'm trying to get them to Gunflint or Sawbill. Would love to get to Gaskin for the moose habitat, see the Misquah Hills, but wherever is fine!

THE HITCH:
- I want to follow them but camp at a _different site_ nearby in case things go south. This is the whole problem I'm trying to solve as I look at routes, I think we'll need a decent number of sites on each lake to pick from, arrive early every day we move, and just get lucky. We'll have radios to coordinate - theoretically 2 mile range but I assume more likely 1m or less

Is this a bad idea or do you think we can pull it off? And if so, any route ideas? THANKS!!
Nate
 
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YetiJedi
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01/25/2025 10:16AM  
Sounds like a very cool opportunity!

I suggest Kawishiwi #37 to meet many of your interests. Head north to Boulder, then to Little Sag, back down to Kawishiwi. There should be a balance between places with several campsites and areas of relative solitude. A good portion of the trip is a loop. You'll get a great variety of nature, topography, amazing cliffs, burn areas, and options to explore PMAs. There is river travel, streams to explore, a few waterfalls, small lakes, and larger water.

You can't go wrong anywhere you choose: time in the bwca is time well spent, especially with family.

Hope you have an epic adventure!
01/25/2025 11:31AM  
Look at the overall bwca map for lakes that have lots of sites and then plan a loop through one of those areas. It sounds like several of the girls have some good experiences and skills. If the rookies have never paddled a canoe then I guess try to avoid large lakes for wind issues.

Sounds like they are using what they’ve learned

To introduce new folks to the wilderness.
01/25/2025 11:42AM  
If they are over the age of 17 and seasoned trippers as you said, let them go by themselves. I think you tagging along is wrong on many levels. Let them grow up and have fun on a trip without a dad looking over their shoulder. Let ‘em plan it, arrange and execute it on their own. The BW isn’t exactly dangerous unless you’re really stupid, so what do they need you for.
natieo
member (5)member
  
01/25/2025 12:09PM  
scat: " If they are over the age of 17 "


Yeah, it's this part. :) Next year it's all them.
01/25/2025 12:49PM  
One consideration is you'll need a separate permit if not camping together. Entry at Kawishiwi is a good option. You could go to Little Sag and return to Sawbill, or vice versa. Did that a few years ago, I think it's about 50 miles. You might also find an option through Missing Link.
Michwall2
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01/25/2025 04:28PM  
I think it is a good idea for you to shadow this group.

Introducing someone who is a "newbie" to the BW can be risky business in the best of situations. Your daughter and friend's intro to the BW was done with the help of an experienced adult and counselor (authority figure). This person was there to teach a safe version of bushcraft and keep any differences of opinion between the young people from getting out of hand. (Think "Lord of the Flies".)

You have a group of young people who have a rapport and a common practice of BW tripping between them. Introducing not just one, but a "few" newbies into this group could indeed go south quickly. Especially if they don't have a "check out" point to stop the trip early. Adversity brings out the best or worst in people. They could certainly learn a lot about each other in a short time. I would hate to see good friendships broken over a trip to the BW.

How about a route with multiple chances to shorten the trip:

Kawishiwi Lake (Entry 37). Day 1 - Kawishiwi Lake to Lake Polly. About 3-4 hours. Polly is a nice lake with good campsites. Day 2 Polly Lake to Malberg Lake. Again this is 3-4 hours. Malberg Lake is a crossroads of the BW. Marlberg is really only one hard day out to Kawishiwi Lake.) Day 3 - Day trip to Fishdance Lake to see the Pictographs. This will take most of the day. One spot portage next to a rapids needs to be carefully taken out if the water is high. You could stay behind and let the young group go. Day 4 - Malberg to Hazel Lake. Here is a Check out point. Instead of turning east on Lake Polly, just keep going south and return to Kawishiwi Lake. There are only 2 campsites on Hazel Lake so you could end up with the crowd but I have only seen the campsites full here once. Day 5 (You can choose to return to Kawishiwi Lake from here also.) Hazel Lake to Grace Lake. Day 6 is out to Sawbill. Start early to avoid wind issues on Alton Lake.



billconner
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01/25/2025 06:13PM  
scat: " If they are over the age of 17 and seasoned trippers as you said, let them go by themselves. I think you tagging along is wrong on many levels. Let them grow up and have fun on a trip without a dad looking over their shoulder. Let ‘em plan it, arrange and execute it on their own. The BW isn’t exactly dangerous unless you’re really stupid, so what do they need you for. "


+1 Trust them. They'll be more careful and grow and learn more if you're not behind them.
natieo
member (5)member
  
01/25/2025 07:12PM  
billconner: "Trust them. They'll be more careful and grow and learn more if you're not behind them."


100%. This is more of a way to get parents on board - we'll see how it goes but I don't intend to be involved in their journey at all besides having my radio on at whatever time we agree I'll be listening, or if we have to switch up the plan if a lake is full.

Thanks everyone for the Kawishiwi Lake votes! I had been looking there already but these are some good ideas, even if we end up going out and back on the same lakes.
straighthairedcurly
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01/26/2025 10:06AM  
During the pandemic, my son did something similar when his Menogyn trip was canceled. It was actually my idea. Details of our situation.

1) He had done 4 trips with Camp Menogyn already as well as multiple family trips in the BWCA.
2) The friend he took had also been on all those trips.
3) My son was 16 and his friend was 17.
4) We planned a week long loop where I would be solo going from Bower Trout to Ram and they would travel from Ram to Bower Trout.
5) We each carried a basic SPOT tracker. It did not have messaging capability other than a couple preprogrammed messages. Each group was under orders to send an "I'm okay" message each night at camp.
6) The plan was to meet and check in at the middle of the route.

How did it work out:
Other than not meeting up in the middle because unknown to me, my son and friend had changed their route to shorten it. This caused me some motherly worry and stress, but also forced me to recognize that they were likely fine.
Did they have issues? Yes. Did they handle them? Yes. Were they really proud of themselves? Absolutely. Would I do it again? Yes, but I wouldn't have bothered to try to meet up.

My advice to you:
1) I'm unclear how old your daughter is, but if she is under 18, I recommend she just do this first trip with her friends who are experienced. It can be challenging at the best of times to introduce new, inexperienced people to the BWCA. It can ruin friendships if expectations are out of sync.
2) Traveling with other experienced campers will allow them the space to solve unexpected issues for the first time on their own without the pressure of making sure the inexperienced are staying safe and happy.
3) I don't recommend that you shadow them. Instead, rent or buy an InReach or other device with messaging capabilities. You could be out and about in the area if it makes you feel better but don't try to keep tabs other than them sending an "I'm okay" message nightly.

In terms of parents who are nervous about the dangers of the wilderness due to their unfamiliarity, I always mention my own mother's words to the mother of my brother's friend when they planned their first mountain backpacking adventure. The mother asked my mom, "Aren't you worried about them being out in the wilderness all by themselves?" My mom responded, "I'm more worried about the drive out there. They are more at risk on the roads than in the wilderness."
01/26/2025 10:22AM  
Sounds like a good idea to me and an interesting trip.

One note on campsites, since you will be solo on a separate permit, don't get too hung up on the site ratings. When it's just one person it doesn't take much to be a nice site.

I agree with others that the Polly / Malberg area would be a good option.
01/26/2025 10:27AM  
Send them with an inreach/ spot type thing so if things go south they can call for help. Or two way radios so you wouldn’t necessarily be too close.

My son wanted to do a part solo one year. We left Clearwater lodge, he went thru Clearwater, John, etc. my husband and I based on Pine and eventually he met up with us and we finished the last couple days together.
natieo
member (5)member
  
01/26/2025 10:46AM  
straighthairedcurly: "During the pandemic, my son did something similar when his Menogyn trip was canceled. It was actually my idea."


I read your trip report when I was planning a trip in that area! Thank you so much for chiming in here, I think this is fantastic advice. I've been poring over maps and have lots of ideas for routes, but your general recommendation to leave the newbies behind for this first trip is really resonating with me. I'll talk to my daughter today with that in mind, I think that would simplify so much of the logistics and managing other parent expectations. And I love the theme coming through here of not shadowing, just being "in the area" - if we could split entry points we could open up a ton of options. We have one InReach already and could rent a second, plus have radios if we happen to be close. I really appreciate your advice here!!

aceaceace: "When it's just one person it doesn't take much to be a nice site."

Absolutely been my experience going solo, I almost always prefer the lower-rated sites because my criteria is different :)
01/27/2025 01:10PM  
I was a tad worried how my response would be taken but I see that some others agree with me so I will chime in again. I kind believe you gotta kick em out of the nest so to speak, but that is just me, it was the way I was with my 3 kids, everyone is different of course.
It should be exciting for the both of ya. I think shc response says it all, she is my voice of reason on all things BW haha I don't think I saw how old they are, but I really think if you let them take ownership of the whole trip it will be so much more rewarding to them. Another salient point by shc is I always thought the drive up and back from the Chicago area was much more dangerous than being in the BW for a week or so. Totally agree, once you are in, you are safe I always felt. It sounds like they have had tripping experience and training from the camp, they are good to go!

That said, I would suggest the Bald Eagle - Gull - Pietro - Turtle lakes loop.

They can handle it, Snake River EP 37. Really fun & not so hard.

Cheers, scat
straighthairedcurly
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01/29/2025 02:21AM  
Glad my trip report was useful.

I asked my son's advice on this scenario. He agreed that trying to actually shadow them isn't a good idea. But when he did his trip he appreciated knowing that I was in the area and that he knew where I planned to camp if he had needed assistance (I stuck rigidly to my itinerary even if he didn't, LOL).

He agreed that the newbies would be a risk though he mentioned that if he knew the newbie friends really well and if he had experienced them dealing with hardship well, he might risk it. However, he agreed that the wrong person could really ruin her first independent experience since she might feel overly responsible for them having a good time.
2ndGenCanoer
  
01/29/2025 07:42AM  
I'm apparently going to be on the outside here but here goes.

I would absolutely Not send a group of sub 18 year olds out into the BWCA. Not trying to be Debbie downer here but most of you guys have clouded judgment of the safety of the BWCA or any remote wilderness since "I've been going for 30 years and I'm fine".

The reality is that many people have died in the BWCA (some not due to lack of experience.) The Wild is exactly that wild. It can be a very unforgiving place. 3 foot swells that seem to come out of nowhere crossing a big lake, fallen trees during storms, currents on rivers and waterfalls, disorientation on big lakes. All of these things have taken lives.

However, im not advocating being a helicopter parent. To be honest the real reason i have reservations is that i have personally seen rowdy drunk young collage guys up there recently and wouldn't bet my sub 18 daughters safety on that. we have had an influx of "regular joes" since covid that don't necessarily conform to the unwritten gentlemen's approach to interactions in the wild. The reality is that 65,000 women just last year went missing above the age of 21 alone.(alibeit im sure some were runaways the moral of the story is the world isn't as peachy as some of these travelers would like to paint it).

To be clear if they were all 18 by all means i would let them go (with a discussion and plan making of what they would do in certain above situations.) but there're not. however by "shadow" did you mean staying at a different site on the same lake? that might be acceptable way to keep an eye on these "kids" and still let them have their fun.
straighthairedcurly
distinguished member(2140)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
  
01/29/2025 09:21AM  
2ndGenCanoer: "I'm apparently going to be on the outside here but here goes.


I would absolutely Not send a group of sub 18 year olds out into the BWCA. Not trying to be Debbie downer here but most of you guys have clouded judgment of the safety of the BWCA or any remote wilderness since "I've been going for 30 years and I'm fine".


The reality is that many people have died in the BWCA (some not due to lack of experience.) The Wild is exactly that wild. It can be a very unforgiving place. 3 foot swells that seem to come out of nowhere crossing a big lake, fallen trees during storms, currents on rivers and waterfalls, disorientation on big lakes. All of these things have taken lives.


However, im not advocating being a helicopter parent. To be honest the real reason i have reservations is that i have personally seen rowdy drunk young collage guys up there recently and wouldn't bet my sub 18 daughters safety on that. we have had an influx of "regular joes" since covid that don't necessarily conform to the unwritten gentlemen's approach to interactions in the wild. The reality is that 65,000 women just last year went missing above the age of 21 alone.(alibeit im sure some were runaways the moral of the story is the world isn't as peachy as some of these travelers would like to paint it).


To be clear if they were all 18 by all means i would let them go (with a discussion and plan making of what they would do in certain above situations.) but there're not. however by "shadow" did you mean staying at a different site on the same lake? that might be acceptable way to keep an eye on these "kids" and still let them have their fun."


For the "average under 18" person, I would agree. However, his daughter and her friends have spent numerous summers at Camp Widji which does an outstanding job teaching young people all the skills needed to travel safely in the wilderness, including situational awareness. I dare say they are better much prepared than the "average" new person taking a BWCA trip. In terms of your "drunk college student" comment, the danger doesn't change once women hit 18. They are more in danger when in the Cities than in the BWCA. Incidents in the BWCA are extremely rare.
RedLakePaddler
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02/02/2025 06:18PM  
For the "average under 18" person, I would agree. However, his daughter and her friends have spent numerous summers at Camp Widji which does an outstanding job teaching young people all the skills needed to travel safely in the wilderness, including situational awareness. I dare say they are better much prepared than the "average" new person taking a BWCA trip. In terms of your "drunk college student" comment, the danger doesn't change once women hit 18. They are more in danger when in the Cities than in the BWCA. Incidents in the BWCA are extremely rare.

I would agree.
I asked my daughter about this and her reply was hell no. She would have change their route and left me in the spray!
If I saw a man following a group of girls I would hit the button on my spot and reported him. I would be more concerned about a group of boys than girls. Send them with a Spot or Inreach and not worry.
Besides if they need to be watched over it should be 2 women, Boy Scouts 2 deep leadership.
Carl
02/05/2025 08:08AM  
It sounds like the OP is onboard letting the young women travel by themselves. It’s the other parents that might be the issue?

So if it’s have a shadow and go on the trip vs. no trip. The shadow is the best option.

I agree with you all if there was an option for all of them to go unsupervised that would be best. The majority have multiple years of experience. I’d send my 3 boys 14-17 on a trip as they have the skills. They would make it.

To the poster with concerns. They are valid, but boys and girls that have gone through training are way more cautious than adults.They wear their life vests they approach falls appropriately, they paddle near shore, don’t paddle in bad weather (lightning,thunder) watch for deadfalls/widowmakers etc... They don’t take on high volume over scheduled trips. At least that’s been my experience.

I hope the trip works out in some fashion.

T
ockycamper
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02/06/2025 09:21AM  
I may be missing something in this thread. Is not one person going 18 or older?

We have a large youth group at our church. There is no way on earth the church would agree to send a group of the high school youth to the BWCA (or anywhere else) without some adults with them.

It has nothing to do with helicopter parenting. Our liability insurance carrier had the church go through a lot of changes to reduce liability for the church. Kids that are not yet 18 do not even have the ability to sign off on medical care without a parent. I also can't imagine any outfitter even renting canoes or gear to a group of high school kids without adult signing for it.

The dad's questions and concerns are valid. Even if he is in the area. . . .would he be able to get to the group quick enough if trauma care was needed? We bring 3-4 groups of men up to the Gunflint area every fall. Our groups spread out over multiple camp sites. We have a doctor at one site, and WFA certified men at two others. However each camp has radios that can reach the other camps if something hits the fan and they need help.

BWCA is a wilderness. Not a state park.
 
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