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opolka
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03/01/2015 02:08PM   (Thread Older Than 3 Years)
Alright. Someone posted about strips a while back, but they didn't get much for discussion. Let's hear some arguments for each way. Bead and cove, and square.

And why do I see everyone using the mushroom style form rather than horseshoe style? Horseshoe style would use less wood. I know my strongback would have to be more narrow, but I would think the forms would be more rigid being shorter. Am I missing something?
 
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Alan Gage
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03/01/2015 03:03PM  
My first build was with square 1/4" strips and it went fine. The 4 builds since have been bead and cove (down to <5/32") and they've gone better. Better joints with less fiddling around. Takes a couple hours to mill the bead and cove on the router table but it more than makes up for it throughout the build.

Bead and cove takes less than 2 minutes/strip. How long does it take to test fit a square strip, plane an angle, test fit again, maybe touch up the angle again, and then install? The time to cut the bead and cove is probably made up for right there. On top of that it saves time sanding/planing the finished hull and putting glue on the strip is much faster and cleaner as well. I don't see any reason not to do it other than not owning a router table and not wanting to spend the $$$ on one.

Maybe I'm missing something but with horseshoe forms I don't think you can get forms out of the hull before flipping the boat. If you're not building a boat with tumblehome it's probably not an issue but I've never built a straight/flare sided boat. With a tumblehomed hull the forms have to come out first. I also use the strongback as a shelf for glue, saw, tape, etc. during the build and having tall forms leaves it accessible.

Alan
 
Alan Gage
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03/01/2015 03:18PM  
No problem with rigidity using tall forms. A strip is stapled along the top edge at the center line of all the forms before you start stripping to keep them all plumb.

Alan
 
1JimD
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03/01/2015 04:04PM  
Bead and cove, is in my book far superior than beveling each strip to mate with the others.
I've done it both ways.
With beveling by hand, it's important that your planks are uniform in thickness, before cutting your strips. Thus your plank must be planed.
The bead and cove process, when done right, solves that problem.

I've built all my canoes with the horseshoe style forms. It saves a lot of plywood, when cutting forms.
The only draw back is a strongback for a 18' canoe can't be used to build a 15' canoe.
It just depends on who designed your forms. Most of the mushroom forms are built on a box beam strongback.

Tumblehome is not a problem with the horseshoe forms.I knock my horseshoe forms out before removing the hull from the strongback. The trick is to position the cleats, towards the ends. That way, you knock the forms towards the center, without the cleats being in the way.

Good questions !


Jim
 
opolka
senior member (83)senior membersenior member
 
03/01/2015 04:28PM  
So do I have to buy the $40 bead and the $40 cove 'canoe bit' set? Or was I just looking at an expensive option? I know my canoe will cost me some $$. But I don't have a 'boat load' of money. ;)
 
1JimD
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03/01/2015 04:57PM  
Opolka

I have always built on a budget ! Cutting your own strips with a simple skilsaw method is the least expense, and in my opinion the best way.
No need for a planer, bandsaw, or table saw
Kit prices for strips are near $1,000 from suppliers.
A 15amp circular, or skilsaw, and a simple clamp on fence can be bought for under $100.
I haven't priced cedar lately, but I'm guessing $150 would buy enough for a canoe.
A inexpensive router and a home made table, can be kept under $100.
I didn't think a bead and cove bits, were that high. But at $80 a set.
For a little over $400, you could make your own strips, and have some great tools! Think how much you will save on your NEXT canoe !
Typically I spend a day cutting, and bead and coving my strips.

One thing I learned in my early days of building canoes. I shopped for bargains, and didn't go out and buy everything at once ! Made it easier to feed my addiction, without alarming the Wife ! HA !

Hope this helps !

Jim
 
03/01/2015 06:48PM  
I use this bit. Works good.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=30153&cat=1,46168,46177



 
opolka
senior member (83)senior membersenior member
 
03/01/2015 10:37PM  
quote 1JimD: " without alarming the Wife ! HA !


Jim "


That's the real challenge. Haha. Love it
 
opolka
senior member (83)senior membersenior member
 
03/01/2015 10:40PM  
quote ILcdr: "I use this bit. Works good.


http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=30153&cat=1,46168,46177




"


Thanks ilcdr. Assuming I'd want the 5/16 one?
 
opolka
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03/01/2015 10:41PM  
Keep forgetting my question. I think that I have access to a bandsaw. Not the huge ones, but big enough for 1x material I'd presume. Would that trump any type of circular saw?

Will I get enough color variations in general with 1x8's or should I go narrower? I also heard through the grapevine I'd have less waste for a 17.5-18' boat buying 16' boards. Truth? Too short? Too long? How big of a pain is to join my strips?

And I do think I want stems. I've heard pine for inner but a harder wood for exterior. Just a preference for color and such? Or does it really need the added strength. Most stems are all laminated correct? No one has tried bending the whole solid piece they want? If so how did it go?

I know, lots of questions. I'm ready to start this!
 
Alan Gage
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03/01/2015 11:23PM  
Joining strips can be easy or time consuming depending on how you want to do it. I've been buying cedar in 12' lengths because it's easy to handle and I don't have to move my saw when it's time to rip strips. I just butt joint the strips over a form. Other people scarf joint the strips together before putting them on the forms.

16' boards will be fine for an 18' boat.

Use whatever you want for stem material. I don't think they're necessary for strength so just use whatever you can get and what you think looks nice. I believe most people use cedar for the inner stem as it's lightweight and bends easily. Ash is probably most common for the external stem.

Be careful cutting strips on the bandsaw. I tried it on a couple of my builds and went back to the table saw. The ultra thin blade is great for conserving wood but it's difficult to get accurate cuts without the blade wandering. Even wandering just a little bit will give you uneven strips which means more sanding later. I know people do it successfully but it takes a good setup. From what I've heard the wider the blade the better. I think you'll want at least 1/2" wide and 3/4" would be better if you can find it.

Maybe not such a big deal if you're doing 1/4" strips but I was doing 5/32" strips so a variation of 1/32" was a 20% difference in strip thickness. If same varied by +1/32" and others by -1/32" that was a huge difference (1/16") when those two strips were mated on the forms.

For me a thin kerf 7 1/4" blade in the table saw is much faster and more accurate. Or like Jim said above a circular saw with a guide will do fine too.

Alan
 
1JimD
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03/02/2015 08:08AM  
When bead and coving strips, it's very important to have uniform thickness in your strips, full length. It saves a lot of sanding, and believe me I hate to sand !!!

As Alan said a 7 1/4" blade works great in a table saw. It is a thinner kerf than a 10" table saw blade, thus saving wood, and giving you more strips.
Narrower planks should be easier to handle in a table saw or band saw.
But for a skilsaw set up, nothing beats a 12", slash cut plank ! They are just hard to find.
A 12" plank will have flatter grain, producing the highest quantity, and quality strips!

Splicing is really not a problem with bead and cove, but if you can get planks longer than the canoe, boy, I'd go for it. Anything you can do to save time, or especially make a better hull, I'd go for it!

Jim
 
03/02/2015 02:35PM  
I have always used the horseshoe type forms. I think the advantage of the musroom shaped forms is that you can use one strongback for all models. With horseshoe type forms you need a custom made strongback for that particular model.

I have only used square edged strips. Part of it is because when I first started that is how it was done. As far as I know, no one had realized the use of bead & cove in canoe building at that time.
 
MacCamper
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03/02/2015 06:06PM  
Thanks for starting this thread opolka...you must be reading my mind. I am considering buying stock from NW and then routing the bead and cove as I have read the price between precut and ripping my own isn't too significant especially taking into account time. Is this a truthful statement? How much of the stock will be taken off when I cut the bead and cove?
Mac
 
opolka
senior member (83)senior membersenior member
 
03/02/2015 06:48PM  
Goal isn't to take any off. Just lose what little the shape concaves. I'm going to make a Menard's run to the big store in a marshaltown Iowa. (40 minute drive for me). And see if I can spot suitable boards as some have mentioned.

For me, ripping the strips is part of the DIY part that I like. I'd prefer to get rough lumber but don't have a good supplier around here, nor do I have a planer. So dimensional isnt fully cheating..... Right? ;)
 
1JimD
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03/02/2015 09:22PM  
Mac. Contrary to what others say, bead and coving a canoe may only take, at the most, a few more strips.
I'd say buy your strips from NorthWest, then beading and coving them yourself is a good idea! Especially for what little extra it will cost you ! The benefit of bead and cove is huge.

Opolka. I made a trip to Menards in Ft. Dodge today, I wasn't looking, but brought back a nice 1"x8"x12'Cedar plank. I'm a sucker for a good plank ! I believe they are even on sale.
Good luck on your hunt ! The best planks are always on the bottom. Restack when you're done sorting ! The Yard boys will appreciate it !

Again look for planks that the grain runs left to right, not up and down ! And if you can get full length strips without knots, out of at least half the plank, load it up !

Good luck !!

Jim
 
opolka
senior member (83)senior membersenior member
 
03/03/2015 02:42PM  
Thanks Jim. Got my plans finally from the print shop that had a desrepentcy with the copyright. I'll hopefully get my strongback constructed in the next week or two. You guys can expect a new build thread in the very near future ;)
 
1JimD
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03/03/2015 06:14PM  
Great news !

We'll be looking forward to your build !
I also downloaded some of NorthWest Canoes plans. I printed the invoice. My next step is to go to Ames, and have them printed.

Jim
 
Rustycards
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03/07/2015 10:03AM  
If you are around the Twin Cities Metro area the classes at NW Canoe in St Paul are awesome. Especially if you are getting your materials from them, then the classes are free. I learned lots last year.
 
opolka
senior member (83)senior membersenior member
 
03/10/2015 06:18PM  
I'm in central Iowa. Router bits ordered and will be here tomorrow. Still debating length of cedar boards to purchase. A buddy at work has some 6' lengths of redwood boards I'm going to utilize for feature strips. He also has some long lengths of oak I may utilize for trim. I know it will be a heavy option, so that Idea might change still. Getting very close to starting this.
 
1JimD
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03/10/2015 07:32PM  
Made it to Ames, Sunday.
Copy Works, is Great ! I had my invoice just incase. Didn't need it.

Opolka, Where are you located, I might be able to stop by and help you some.

Jim
 
opolka
senior member (83)senior membersenior member
 
03/10/2015 10:05PM  
quote 1JimD


Opolka, Where are you located, I might be able to stop by and help you some.


Jim"


Big ol town of Grinnell. Yourself? I just may take you up on that when i get to glassing if it works out.
 
opolka
senior member (83)senior membersenior member
 
03/11/2015 12:11AM  
just scored some 2x8 lumber from work. had something ship in, in a 15 foot long and some change box made of 3 2x8. perfect start for my strongback. very straight. should work nicely.
 
1JimD
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03/11/2015 06:52AM  
Opolka

I live in Humboldt. A bit of a jaunt from Grinnell.
I get to Des Moines area quite often.
Glassing IS the most intimidating part of building a stripper, no doubt ! I've helped several people with that task.

Again keep us up to date on your build ! You've got a good start !

Jim
 
opolka
senior member (83)senior membersenior member
 
03/11/2015 07:25PM  
I went with these. $20 a piece off amazon

 
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