I know permit hoarding has been a hot topic, so I apologize in advance for the error of my ways.

I’ve been hoping that a permit would pop up for a couple different trips I’m leading, and one for a friend of mine-two in July and one in September(EP 16-which I did snag). In the search process I’ve been jumping forward and backwards and the other day noticed that permits were listed for days in the past.

At first I thought I might have jumped through a computer code wormhole, but I went back and forth and could still see them! [I just looked and apparently fell back out of the wormhole! But was able to pop through again]. I could see them all the way back to May 1!

Because I have too much time I check twice, sometimes 3 times a day. When I first discovered this, I just scanned some EP’s that I had been watching closely.

I know this isn’t the case for all, or maybe even most entry points, but I was surprised to see that LIS N for example, had a total of 10 returned and then unclaimed for the previous 2 weeks. And as of 7:00 today, it was 11 for EP 16. On top of that for EP 16, there are 17 open in the next 11 days! After that there are only 2 available before 9/25!

Is this evidence of permit hoarding?

Fritty

I'm curious as to what the consequences are for people that do this annually? Do they get flagged by the USFS and lose permit privileges? Or do they turn a blind eye to it in the name of conservation?

I’m late this year on my planning and permits are scarce.

Heyfritty: "...In the search process I’ve been jumping forward and backwards and the other day noticed that permits were listed for days in the past.

At first I thought I might have jumped through a computer code wormhole, but I went back and forth and could still see them!..."

This is something I noticed last year, and maybe the year before. I really thought I was on to something valuable, but right then another site came up with their searchable listings of past permits taken, along with their permit cancellation alert option. I wasn't much later when this site introduced the same.

I’m not understanding something. How can you tell the permits listed in the past were “unclaimed”, meaning someone reserved them and did not pick them up vs just unused permits that no one reserved?

Jaywalker: "I’m not understanding something. How can you tell the permits listed in the past were “unclaimed”, meaning someone reserved them and did not pick them up vs just unused permits that no one reserved? "

I am similarly confused/ignorant - and possibly suspicious that these are not 'hoarded' permits, but simply ones that were 'available' but unused.

sns: "

Jaywalker: "I’m not understanding something. How can you tell the permits listed in the past were “unclaimed”, meaning someone reserved them and did not pick them up vs just unused permits that no one reserved? "

I am similarly confused/ignorant - and possibly suspicious that these are not 'hoarded' permits, but simply ones that were 'available' but unused."

Sorry, that was a bad choice of words on my part.

I should have been more specific about entry points that I had in mind. Returned and unclaimed was specifically what I meant. Clearly not all or maybe even most are unclaimed, just unused. As I was writing, I was thinking of the ones I had been paying close attention to. In those cases there were zero permits available the day before, or for the entire week prior-with the caveat being that of course they can pop up and be claimed quickly.

Lately I have been following certain entry points closely, so in cases like LIS N, Sawbill, and Lake One the permits were not available. I even see permits showing up after noon on the current date. And when I look a couple weeks out, frequently the most popular EP’s are claimed through early September at least.

I am fortunate to be able to decide to go on a moment’s notice, so I tend to keep a close eye on them, checking a couple times a day(I also have too much time, but that’s another story). Often, I have almost everything pre-packed and ready to go, making it easier.

Thanks for the feedback, I will try to clarify my post.

Fritty

schweady: "

Heyfritty: "...In the search process I’ve been jumping forward and backwards and the other day noticed that permits were listed for days in the past.


At first I thought I might have jumped through a computer code wormhole, but I went back and forth and could still see them!..."

This is something I noticed last year, and maybe the year before. I really thought I was on to something valuable, but right then another site came up with their searchable listings of past permits taken, along with their permit cancellation alert option. I wasn't much later when this site introduced the same.
"

What is the site with the alert option?

Heyfritty: "

schweady: "

Heyfritty: "...In the search process I’ve been jumping forward and backwards and the other day noticed that permits were listed for days in the past.



At first I thought I might have jumped through a computer code wormhole, but I went back and forth and could still see them!..."

This is something I noticed last year, and maybe the year before. I really thought I was on to something valuable, but right then another site came up with their searchable listings of past permits taken, along with their permit cancellation alert option. I wasn't much later when this site introduced the same.
"

What is the site with the alert option?"

This site - Link to Info

That’s good Adam!

To the OP question, yes that is permit hoarding.
There have been quite a few members on the forum that have admitted to doing this on a regular basis. The reason being that they have options of places and times to go based on their groups wants and availability to go.

IMO you can blame those that are doing the hoarding but must blame the USFS for having a reservation system that permits it to occur openly without penalty.

It might be that the USFS finds it easier to reduce permits with this method than it is to actually reduce permit quotas which thus would creating outrage from some entities and endless lawsuits/hearings.

The USFS knows exactly what has been happening for a long long time. They probably know stuff we don’t know because from the outside it’s preposterous. But it might be genius too.
Tom

Forgive me if I’m being dense here, but I still have not seen an explanation about how this is “hoarding”. Maybe it is, but I’m still curious to understand how we know that unused permits in the past were permits someone reserved and did not use vs permits no one reserved in the first place. Maybe it’s happening - I’m just trying to know exactly what is happening.

Simple to check and I think it's what heyfritty has done. Check availability of a popular EP for next week or two and see what's available; recheck in a week or two for the previous date.

I'm with tumble home and believe forest service uses late canceled and not picked up permits as a means to keep population down. Less outcry than reducing quota, same effect.

I do wonder if these permits are available any sooner at a forest service station than on line. Like if you showed up at the forest service station at noon, would you have more options than what was on line several days before.

tumblehome: "

It might be that the USFS finds it easier to reduce permits with this method than it is to actually reduce permit quotas which thus would creating outrage from some entities and endless lawsuits/hearings.

"

Well...is it working? Has there been less or more people in the BWCA this year then previous years? Or does it seem the same?

I have noticed there hasn't been any threads this year (yet) about terrible visitors destroying the campsite, or blocking portages, or excessive trash at a site.

I mean, isn't there a yearly thread about how overused the BWCA is and permit prices should be increased, or something done to reduce the overuse. If the Forest Service is a clever as implied, is the goal of reducing overuse being met, and without having to jack the permit cost?

This is worse, but nothing new…I first noticed it in 2002ish…

The FS has made numerous comments that they are aware. Last fall outfitters seemed to ban together and complain privately and publicly to the FS. They (the FS) have in the past banned certain users or accounts, but I assume as long as you are part of a group it is an easy work around. I don’t think this is common?

Quetico in the 90’s had a worse problem with Hoarding. They revamped their system and permit availability improved. The difference in the Q is it is more expensive and the Park relies on permits for revenue, thus more motivation to fix it.

In the past I would have questioned Tumblehome and billconnor on the FS motives, but I’ve seen too many comments over the years of “we are aware” “we know who does this” “we are assessing what action to take” with little action taken. Ya can’t rule it out.

I personally think with the revolving door of leadership, different initiatives, funding, and staffing probably weigh in more on the inaction than purposefully using it to limit use. Also with everything the FS has to work on, my guess this is pretty far down on their list of priorities…the BWCAW is still available, the hoarding is annoying but you can work around it. It’s still a usable system and making changes will have a new set of problems to iron out…just not a priority to fix is my assumption.

T

Last fall there was a series of public interviews with the FS on “Hoarding” although no official stance.

In those interviews they defined Hoarding as booking more permits than you intend to use and cancelling them with minimal or no time for any other group to get that permit or just not picking the permit up.
Examples:
1. A group or paddler is planning to do one trip but books let’s say 3 permits for different date then waits till the last second to cancel the other 2 permits or never cancels them.
2. A group actively books several permits for the same day, same entry, then either cancels last second or just lets them go to ensure less groups at their entry. I won’t go into details on how to do this…but I don’t think it is that hard.

They have attempted some changes to track better. If you personally book multiple permits on the same day it will automatically cancel them now (unless you are a non profit). Previously you could do this. They now make you add more group members info/emails I believe to track better. But really if you have minor computer savvy, you could work around this.

T

These people that order permits and hope to use them, or don't want other people to get them are just....PIGS!!!! Make permits $200 and no refund. Sure, the permit system is broken, but those in charge are not capable of fixing much.

Hmm, this thread took a different direction than I first thought. My comment was solely in regard to the ability to look back in time at numbers of permits used/unused, something not seen on recreation.gov until recent years. I gave no thought as to whether this could be used to prove "hoarding."

Findian: "These people that order permits and hope to use them, or don't want other people to get them are just....PIGS!!!! Make permits $200 and no refund. Sure, the permit system is broken, but those in charge are not capable of fixing much."

Doesn't everyone reserve with the hope of using them? I have had times in the past where something came up and I simply wasn't able to go.

Painting with a very broad brush here.

bfurlow: "

Findian: "These people that order permits and hope to use them, or don't want other people to get them are just....PIGS!!!! Make permits $200 and no refund. Sure, the permit system is broken, but those in charge are not capable of fixing much."

Doesn't everyone reserve with the hope of using them? I have had times in the past where something came up and I simply wasn't able to go.


Painting with a very broad brush here. "

So, If I get sick and cannot go, I am more than happy to give up my $200 to the forest service.

So, educate me with a better solution. Sorry just the kind of person I am ... a problem solver. Not a "it can't" be done person.

As always it is a few wrecking it for everyone.

The online permit system always sucked. I had hughs net with 25 down and 4 up. Never got the permit I wanted. Now with Musks Starlink I might get a motor permit!!!

Findian: "

bfurlow: "

Findian: "These people that order permits and hope to use them, or don't want other people to get them are just....PIGS!!!! Make permits $200 and no refund. Sure, the permit system is broken, but those in charge are not capable of fixing much."

Doesn't everyone reserve with the hope of using them? I have had times in the past where something came up and I simply wasn't able to go.



Painting with a very broad brush here. "

So, If I get sick and cannot go, I am more than happy to give up my $200 to the forest service.


So, educate me with a better solution. Sorry just the kind of person I am ... a problem solver. Not a "it can't" be done person.

As always it is a few wrecking it for everyone.

The online permit system always sucked. I had hughs net with 25 down and 4 up. Never got the permit I wanted. Now with Musks Starlink I might get a motor permit!!!"

First month-maybe allowed to sign up for two permits only and make it at least $20.00 for cancelled permits not cancelled two weeks in advance.?

Findian: "The online permit system always sucked. I had hughs net with 25 down and 4 up. Never got the permit I wanted. Now with Musks Starlink I might get a motor permit!!!"

Is this an inside joke? Honest question.

uqme2: "

Findian: "The online permit system always sucked. I had hughs net with 25 down and 4 up. Never got the permit I wanted. Now with Musks Starlink I might get a motor permit!!!"

Is this an inside joke? Honest question."

No joke!