Is it possible to add more acres to the BWCA from the Superior National Forest? I'm not sure how much of the SNF is wilderness or not affected by private property. This is in response to all the posts about over use-crowding in the BWCA.

I don't mean displace any private owners and know it would have to be legislated, but even increasing the area by 1% could mean 10,000 acres under the "protection" of the BWCA. I know you can camp in the SNF, but I doubt it gets a fraction of the campers as the BWCA, campgrounds aside and the rules are less restrictive.

This is just a thought and a request for opinions and discussion. Please don't beat me up if you disagree.

That would take an act of congress, both literally and figuratively. My guess is that such a proposal would meet with massive push-back from landowners, snowmobilers, business owners, boaters, anglers, cabin owners, the ATV lobby, and a bunch of others. I cannot begin to imagine the bureaucratic maze and court challenges that would all have to be navigated before anything would happen. My guess: 10-15 years between proposal and implementation.

Nice idea though.

Mike

I understand it's been a wild year, but my fear would be that by the time a project like that gets approved and completed and sites are up and running (maybe years), the temporary spike in demand will have already passed us by. If I'm spending theoretical USFS dollars on anything, it's going to be to increase patrols and enforcement in the current wilderness. Personally I see rules violations as a much larger problem than over-crowding this summer. My 2 cents anyway.

The thing to keep in mind is that you are proposing adding acreage to the BWCa to help alleviate overcrowding. If it were to be proposed for that reason alone it would likely get shot down because there are easier ways to limit overcrowding, most obvious would be to limit the number of permits.

The thing about over crowding is that the permit limit was already set up to help combat this issue so it brings up the question is why is the BWCA still over crowded? Were there always too many permits available but it worked because enough of them went unused? Are there enough people going in the BWCA without a permit at all? Are large single groups breaking up and occupying more than one campsite at a time? Are people staying longer than originally accounted for?

I think those questions need to be answered in order to figure out a solution to the over crowding issue.

I think the only way for more land to be added to the BWCA would require some chunk of land to exist that seasons like an obvious addition. It would likely have to currently be inaccessible to most recreation use. It would have no have no private landownership issues, and it would have to be free from any mining or logging interest.

I can’t see this happening in my lifetime. Too many moving parts.

I believe the Vegetable Lakes area was at one time (mid-2000s?) considered for inclusion in the BWCAW or at least to receive a non-motorized classification of some sort. This is an area adjacent to Crocodile Lake near the southern edge of the Vento Unit.

nofish: "The thing to keep in mind is that you are proposing adding acreage to the BWCa to help alleviate overcrowding. If it were to be proposed for that reason alone it would likely get shot down because there are easier ways to limit overcrowding, most obvious would be to limit the number of permits.


The thing about over crowding is that the permit limit was already set up to help combat this issue so it brings up the question is why is the BWCA still over crowded? Were there always too many permits available but it worked because enough of them went unused? Are there enough people going in the BWCA without a permit at all? Are large single groups breaking up and occupying more than one campsite at a time? Are people staying longer than originally accounted for?


I think those questions need to be answered in order to figure out a solution to the over crowding issue.


I think the only way for more land to be added to the BWCA would require some chunk of land to exist that seasons like an obvious addition. It would likely have to currently be inaccessible to most recreation use. It would have no have no private landownership issues, and it would have to be free from any mining or logging interest."

Rambling about this topic:

Is the BWCA actually "crowded" this year, or are just a much higher percentage of permits being taken? I think the latter makes up much of the former. That said, I believe that there are likely more larger groups than usual, or groups merging on a particular lake to make a large group (Fourtown Lake two weeks ago.) I suppose there are groups that enter without a permit, and one large group entering a lake without a permit can certainly give the impression of overcrowding. But in the end, if more permits are being taken than in previous years, and the quota per EP remains the same, it could be argued that the BDub is only at capacity.

But it sure feels crowded.

Mike

MikeinMpls: "

nofish: "The thing to keep in mind is that you are proposing adding acreage to the BWCa to help alleviate overcrowding. If it were to be proposed for that reason alone it would likely get shot down because there are easier ways to limit overcrowding, most obvious would be to limit the number of permits.



The thing about over crowding is that the permit limit was already set up to help combat this issue so it brings up the question is why is the BWCA still over crowded? Were there always too many permits available but it worked because enough of them went unused? Are there enough people going in the BWCA without a permit at all? Are large single groups breaking up and occupying more than one campsite at a time? Are people staying longer than originally accounted for?



I think those questions need to be answered in order to figure out a solution to the over crowding issue.



I think the only way for more land to be added to the BWCA would require some chunk of land to exist that seasons like an obvious addition. It would likely have to currently be inaccessible to most recreation use. It would have no have no private landownership issues, and it would have to be free from any mining or logging interest."

Rambling about this topic:


Is the BWCA actually "crowded" this year, or are just a much higher percentage of permits being taken? I think the latter makes up much of the former. That said, I believe that there are likely more larger groups than usual, or groups merging on a particular lake to make a large group (Fourtown Lake two weeks ago.) I suppose there are groups that enter without a permit, and one large group entering a lake without a permit can certainly give the impression of overcrowding. But in the end, if more permits are being taken than in previous years, and the quota per EP remains the same, it could be argued that the BDub is only at capacity.


But it sure feels crowded.


Mike"

I hope it settles down next year. Also could the increase be because the border is closed? I was supposed to go to Quebec this year but because it is closed I’m going back to the bwca. I’d hate to see the bwca become like Algonquin.

MikeinMpls: "

nofish: "The thing to keep in mind is that you are proposing adding acreage to the BWCa to help alleviate overcrowding. If it were to be proposed for that reason alone it would likely get shot down because there are easier ways to limit overcrowding, most obvious would be to limit the number of permits.



The thing about over crowding is that the permit limit was already set up to help combat this issue so it brings up the question is why is the BWCA still over crowded? Were there always too many permits available but it worked because enough of them went unused? Are there enough people going in the BWCA without a permit at all? Are large single groups breaking up and occupying more than one campsite at a time? Are people staying longer than originally accounted for?



I think those questions need to be answered in order to figure out a solution to the over crowding issue.



I think the only way for more land to be added to the BWCA would require some chunk of land to exist that seasons like an obvious addition. It would likely have to currently be inaccessible to most recreation use. It would have no have no private landownership issues, and it would have to be free from any mining or logging interest."

Rambling about this topic:


Is the BWCA actually "crowded" this year, or are just a much higher percentage of permits being taken? I think the latter makes up much of the former. That said, I believe that there are likely more larger groups than usual, or groups merging on a particular lake to make a large group (Fourtown Lake two weeks ago.) I suppose there are groups that enter without a permit, and one large group entering a lake without a permit can certainly give the impression of overcrowding. But in the end, if more permits are being taken than in previous years, and the quota per EP remains the same, it could be argued that the BDub is only at capacity.


But it sure feels crowded.


Mike"

Mike, I always enjoy reading your posts. You're as down to earth as a red pine!

missmolly: "

MikeinMpls: "

nofish: "The thing to keep in mind is that you are proposing adding acreage to the BWCa to help alleviate overcrowding. If it were to be proposed for that reason alone it would likely get shot down because there are easier ways to limit overcrowding, most obvious would be to limit the number of permits.



The thing about over crowding is that the permit limit was already set up to help combat this issue so it brings up the question is why is the BWCA still over crowded? Were there always too many permits available but it worked because enough of them went unused? Are there enough people going in the BWCA without a permit at all? Are large single groups breaking up and occupying more than one campsite at a time? Are people staying longer than originally accounted for?



I think those questions need to be answered in order to figure out a solution to the over crowding issue.



I think the only way for more land to be added to the BWCA would require some chunk of land to exist that seasons like an obvious addition. It would likely have to currently be inaccessible to most recreation use. It would have no have no private landownership issues, and it would have to be free from any mining or logging interest."

Rambling about this topic:



Is the BWCA actually "crowded" this year, or are just a much higher percentage of permits being taken? I think the latter makes up much of the former. That said, I believe that there are likely more larger groups than usual, or groups merging on a particular lake to make a large group (Fourtown Lake two weeks ago.) I suppose there are groups that enter without a permit, and one large group entering a lake without a permit can certainly give the impression of overcrowding. But in the end, if more permits are being taken than in previous years, and the quota per EP remains the same, it could be argued that the BDub is only at capacity.



But it sure feels crowded.



Mike"

Mike, I always enjoy reading your posts. You're as down to earth as a red pine! "

Awww shucks. Thanks!

Mike

My guess that it would also be that all of our Quetico, Woodland Caribou etc etc friends are forced to stay here in the USA for their wilderness adventures.

Folks who have sworn off for years of the BWCA b/c they like the Q better are finding themselves back in the Q.

Pair that with the DNR shutting down all reservations to the state parks which didn't open for new reservations until July, coupled with folks wanting to "do stuff" and social distance.

ps. Noticed for the first time the names of the Vegetable lakes this year when staying on Alder and looking at the map. I got a kick out of that little pocket.

For the newbie issues, I know outfitters are doing their best, but I wonder if part of the issue is that new groups aren’t getting the full intro to the Bdub with everything going on.

Printing online, pick up windows rather than wandering through the outfitter store, no video and talking to staff. It’s almost like a transition step between real life and the wilderness that new people are missing out on.

There was some talk, maybe ten years ago, about adding to the Bwca, but it never went anywhere. There are many areas outside the bwcaw that can provide excellent outdoor wilderness experiences. Some people get caught up in the idea of “being in the boundary waters.” There’s so many places just outside this imaginary line that can rival the bwcaw in fishing and solitude. These areas should be promoted. I’ve spent many nights on lakes just outside the bwcaw without a soul around with good fishing as well.

We aren’t able to go this year, but in the past have always noted that the first six or so hours in can be busy, we always get at least 12-14 hours in Starting at daylight and moving as fast And far as double portaging will allow with enough daylight left to set camp and have dinner before dark. For those of you who have been 12-14 hours in, is it still crowded or are a lot of the new people just getting four to six hours in and camping for a few days.

There are several rivers in northern Minnesota that feel much wilder than the bwca. I’ve been doing these for years.

Merlyn for President. The larger our population, now at 330 million, the larger our parks need be if we are to preserve pervading solitude.

egknuti: "There was some talk, maybe ten years ago, about adding to the Bwca, but it never went anywhere. There are many areas outside the bwcaw that can provide excellent outdoor wilderness experiences. Some people get caught up in the idea of “being in the boundary waters.” There’s so many places just outside this imaginary line that can rival the bwcaw in fishing and solitude. These areas should be promoted. I’ve spent many nights on lakes just outside the bwcaw without a soul around with good fishing as well. "

I remember seeing the wish list. Adding the adjacent Vegetable Lakes area is one thing; but the Seven Beaver Lake area? My secret spots would be ruined.

I'd be happy to sign a petition!

Not that I have an opinion one way or the other, but one possibly easier solution to overcrowding would be to open up the PMA's within the BWCAW.

Errr, wait a few weeks to do that, OK?

I love the BWCAW. I don't think I could support the expansion. We have to remember, in my never all that humble opinion, that there are local residents whose lives would be impacted as well.

Not too long ago there were many posts about the age of the users increasing and the need to assure the continued use of what is the current wilderness.

Also, I am just tired of conflict.

Was wondering if the Ely businesses are benefiting from the extra visitors ‘in these unprecedented times’. It’s got to be good for them I would think.

inspector13: Adding the adjacent Vegetable Lakes area is one thing; but the Seven Beaver Lake area? My secret spots would be ruined.
"

Steve, remember that old cabin you had to boat to on Seven Beavers Lake?
I stayed in it a couple times, then someone burned it down.

I didn’t know about the cabin. Too bad. What year did it get burned down? I remember seeing an abandoned boat and wondered how someone got it there though.

Almost all permits, gone, through September practically. You can look on Recreation.gov.
Extremely high volume of users this season. It is a national phenomenon. Parks and Forest in Western States were closing due to not being able to keep up with resource damage and garbage...

inspector13: "
I didn’t know about the cabin. Too bad. What year did it get burned down? I remember seeing an abandoned boat and wondered how someone got it there though.
"

We used to be able to drive to Seven Beavers, winter and summer. One time someone left a boat in the middle of the landing in the winter. My buddies truck high centered on it and got hung up really bad. He had to cut it up under his truck to get off it. He was driving to the cabin in the winter, the cabin was across the lake, near where the USFS snowmobile shelter is now. (This was 30+ years ago) Cabin was burned down 30 - 35 years ago. My buddy fixed up and stayed in it on weekends, someone squatted in it all summer and when my buddy came up to use it they got into a big fight. Someone burned it down after that confrontation, the cabin was on USFS land, and in fair shape when it burned.

I didn’t know you could drive there. I thought that road was for railroad use only. I got in there via canoe launched from the Skibo public water access about 20 years ago.

LindenTree: "

inspector13: "
I didn’t know about the cabin. Too bad. What year did it get burned down? I remember seeing an abandoned boat and wondered how someone got it there though.
"

We used to be able to drive to Seven Beavers, winter and summer. One time someone left a boat in the middle of the landing in the winter. My buddies truck high centered on it and got hung up really bad. He had to cut it up under his truck to get off it. He was driving to the cabin in the winter, the cabin was across the lake, near where the USFS snowmobile shelter is now. (This was 30+ years ago) Cabin was burned down 30 - 35 years ago. My buddy fixed up and stayed in it on weekends, someone squatted in it all summer and when my buddy came up to use it they got into a big fight. Someone burned it down after that confrontation, the cabin was on USFS land, and in fair shape when it burned."

That's quite a tale. Enjoy hearing these stories. You should write a little novel, LindenTree. These are interesting!

My friend did some botany work in the Sand Lake SNA - said in his three decades of "tromping around, looking", that particular work was in some of those most challenging bog and alder terrain he'd ever passed. This was in 2015 in one of the surveys being done to catalog flora associated with the St. Louis River headwaters area, as part of the PolyMet mining process.

inspector13: "
I didn’t know you could drive there. I thought that road was for railroad use only. I got in there via canoe launched from the Skibo public water access about 20 years ago.


"

I can’t find this area on the maps, is this in the Isabella area?

inspector13: "
I didn’t know you could drive there. I thought that road was for railroad use only. I got in there via canoe launched from the Skibo public water access about 20 years ago.
"

I was only in there 3 times or so and it was 30+ years ago so I really can't remember how we got there. It seems like I remember crossing some tracks somewhere but it is really foggy in my memory, and way before I started working for the Forest Service. There were 3 or more boats stashed at the landing so others used it as well.
I believe your right, those roads are only to be used for official Railroad business, I know it took a high clearance 4 wheel drive to get in there and it was still sketchy. Probably took 1 to 1.5 hours to get back there after crossing the RR tracks. I have no idea if you can drive there now, but I would guess no.

Gopher adventure, Seven Beaver Lake is located around 15 miles north of Brimson and 15 miles east of Hoyt Lakes, the lake covers around 3 sections.

GopherAdventure: "

inspector13: "
I didn’t know you could drive there. I thought that road was for railroad use only. I got in there via canoe launched from the Skibo public water access about 20 years ago.
"

I can’t find this area on the maps, is this in the Isabella area?"

LindenTree: "Gopher adventure, Seven Beaver Lake is located around 15 miles north of Brimson and 15 miles east of Hoyt Lakes, the lake covers around 3 sections."

And as jillpine (Beth) states it is in the headwaters of the St. Louis River
a little more than 5 miles southwest of the Sand Lake SNA.

That's why I was bit perplexed to see that area on the Friends wish list of land to someday add to the BWCAW.

I'm not sure what landing location and roads you guys remember for Seven Beavers, but staring at some maps online it *appears* that there is legal access by snowmobile for sure, ATV maybe (it's clearly possible and recently done, but it *might* not comply with Superior National Forest rules - their map is kind of weirdly inconsistent in this spot), but probably not highway vehicles, although I wouldn't totally rule it out without checking in-person. There are still boats visible at the landing in 2020 satellite imagery. Interestingly, there is an official DNR water access site located on adjacent Round Lake, also with a couple of boats visible on the satellite image, and with similarly not-really-marked access routes. I'm intrigued. Both lakes had their last DNR fisheries sampling done way back in 1986 though, so clearly they aren't a high priority for monitoring. This is only about 45 minutes away from my parents' cabin, so I may have to go wander around back there some time and see what there is to see - looks like it's only a few miles from from-sure-legit-road, so we can just bike or walk it.

RunningFox: "Merlyn for President. The larger our population, now at 330 million, the larger our parks need be if we are to preserve pervading solitude. "

I would be a horrible pres. but still better than the choices we have now

One way to “add” to the BWCA would be to make motor lakes electric motor only.

Nobody wants to be on the motor lakes. I think and electric only requirement would
make the motor lakes more tolerable and have the effect of expanding the BWCA.

There is The Rain Forrest Trust that uses private money to buy critical rain forest acreage. I wonder if an instrument like that could be used slowly acquire adjacent properties, return them to a natural state? This wouldn’t take any political lift.
I can see a scenario where the trust would pay an owner, firing from the hip here, $50,000 and then in 50 years the property is handed over to the trust....something like that.

inspector13: "

egknuti: "There was some talk, maybe ten years ago, about adding to the Bwca, but it never went anywhere. There are many areas outside the bwcaw that can provide excellent outdoor wilderness experiences. Some people get caught up in the idea of “being in the boundary waters.” There’s so many places just outside this imaginary line that can rival the bwcaw in fishing and solitude. These areas should be promoted. I’ve spent many nights on lakes just outside the bwcaw without a soul around with good fishing as well. "

I remember seeing the wish list. Adding the adjacent Vegetable Lakes area is one thing; but the Seven Beaver Lake area? My secret spots would be ruined.


"

Oh yes, I forgot about that area!

brp: "One way to “add” to the BWCA would be to make motor lakes electric motor only. Nobody wants to be on the motor lakes. I think and electric only requirement would
make the motor lakes more tolerable and have the effect of expanding the BWCA.
"

I for one would not want to be on a lake like Sag or any of the other huge lakes with only a trolling motor. Battery goes dead on the other side of the lake and you could be in serious trouble. Ever tried to row or paddle a 18’ Fishing boat that has no oar locks? Again a big safety issue for boaters in my opinion.

Then there is the tow boat service that most outfitters would loose out on. Think about Moose lake. It has a lot of rental cabins that outfitters and people rent to fishermen who want to use a motorboat. These rules about motor use lakes were estimated at the start of the BWCA. It would literally take an act of Congress to change this law.

thegildedgopher: "I understand it's been a wild year, but my fear would be that by the time a project like that gets approved and completed and sites are up and running (maybe years), the temporary spike in demand will have already passed us by. If I'm spending theoretical USFS dollars on anything, it's going to be to increase patrols and enforcement in the current wilderness. Personally I see rules violations as a much larger problem than over-crowding this summer. My 2 cents anyway."

Well said.
Which begs the question, where are the rangers and why aren't they handing out tickets or enforcing the rules in any sort of manner? Nobody wants Covid-19 so wear a mask and respect distancing like the rest of us are doing. (Well, "us" is probably only 50% of the population.) So wear gloves and tag the violation ticket to the damn tent. Ranger says, "Hasta la vista, Baby!"

tonyyarusso: "...This is only about 45 minutes away from my parents' cabin, so I may have to go wander around back there some time and see what there is to see - looks like it's only a few miles from from-sure-legit-road, so we can just bike or walk it."

I see someone with the name Yarusso bought land off Highway 2 near where the Dixie used to stand. Any relation?

brp: "One way to “add” to the BWCA would be to make motor lakes electric motor only.


Nobody wants to be on the motor lakes. I think and electric only requirement would
make the motor lakes more tolerable and have the effect of expanding the BWCA.


There is The Rain Forrest Trust that uses private money to buy critical rain forest acreage. I wonder if an instrument like that could be used slowly acquire adjacent properties, return them to a natural state? This wouldn’t take any political lift.
I can see a scenario where the trust would pay an owner, firing from the hip here, $50,000 and then in 50 years the property is handed over to the trust....something like that.


"

Maybe you don't like the motor lakes but a lot of people do. Some of my favorite memories is fishing with my son on Basswood. How about if you don't like the motor lakes leave tham to the people that enjoy them and utilize the vast majority of lakes that don't allow them. I'd like to think that there's plenty of room for both.