Just pulled my permit and the site listed the regs:

BWCAW Regulations and Rules

Max. penalty of $5,000 and/or 6 months in jail.

1. Permit is valid to enter only on entry date and at entry point specified.

2. Be quiet. Noise effects solitude and scares off wildlife.

3. Group size is limited to 9 people and 4 watercraft anytime or anywhere—on the water, on portages, or in camp.

4. Camp at a USFS designated campsite with fire grate and latrine.

5. Camp and travel on durable surfaces. Place tent in area with no vegetation—keep campsites small. Walk in the middle of the trail.

6. Practice portage etiquette. Wait on the water until group in front of you is gone.

7. Damaging any living plant is illegal. Never cut a live tree!

8. Firewood: paddle well away from camp and use only dead and downed wood easily broken by hand, smaller than your wrist.

9. Fires are allowed only within a USFS fire grate. Never leave a campfire unattended!

10. To put out a fire, DROWN with water and STIR ashes until COLD to the touch.

11. Wash dishes and yourself at least 200’ from shore and use soap sparingly.

12. Possessing any cans or glass bottles is illegal, except fuel, insect repellent, or medicines.

13. Dispose of fish remains at least 200’ from shorelines, campsites, trails, and portages.

14. Burning trash is illegal. Pack it in, pack it out!

15. Motorized watercraft are allowed only on designated lakes with horsepower restrictions.

16. Dogs must be under human control at all times on a 6-foot or shorter leash. Dispose of dog waste 200’ from water, campsites, portages, or put it in a latrine.

17. Fireworks are illegal. Discharging a firearm is prohibited within 150 yards of a campsite or occupied area, or in any manner or location that places people or property at risk of injury. Firearm and game laws apply.

18. Never store scented items in your tent. Use a bear-resistant container or ropes to hang food packs.

Permit holders are required to watch (3) Leave No Trace videos and review the BWCAW Regulations and Rules prior to receiving permit.

Note number 6. I am amazed the threads I have read over the years that paddlers state they have a right to land and go by/through slower paddlers on portages. Again, number 6.

Note number 16. I have yet to meet a dog in the BWCA on a portage or at a camp site that was on a leash

What are you the fricken regulation police? Calm down buddy. I have never had an issue with multiple groups on portages. People got places to be. Move on through.

Our groups have had paddlers paddle their canoes right on to the landings of the portages we were on and starting unloading. Last year it caused gear to get mixed up between the groups.

Is anyone really in that big of hurry they can't wait for the group on the portage to get through before the land and push through?

6 needs some more verbiage that instructs those at the portage to not use it as a rest stop, place to have lunch, place to fish, or wait for the rest of their group. Or if you do, move to the side and wave other groups in and through.

Those are the times I have ask to use the portage when obviously occupied. The others have been unintentional ie. a group going the other way, or overtaking/catching a group mid portage or at the landing in the direction were headed.

Did the Tuscarora portage once. Other groups would have a long, long, long, long wait if they were waiting for me to finish. :-)

LesliesDad: "Did the Tuscarora portage once. Other groups would have a long, long, long, long wait if they were waiting for me to finish. :-)"

Let me know when you are done buddy! I will just wait here in the water for an hour.

ockycamper: "Our groups have had paddlers paddle their canoes right on to the landings of the portages we were on and starting unloading. Last year it caused gear to get mixed up between the groups.


Is anyone really in that big of hurry they can't wait for the group on the portage to get through before the land and push through?"

You're high as a kite if you think people around going to wait until you completely clear a portage to land their canoes. Especially on long portages that are 200+ rods. If you're worried about your gear, move it up and out of the way, you really should be doing that anyway. I don't know anyone that doesn't walk their packs up a few yards to place them off the landing.

For me - Portage Etiquette is making sure when you land, you get your stuff out of the way to allow others to do the same. I pull my canoes off to the side and set all of our gear together also off to the side, to allow other groups to move through.

I've come upon some real dumpster fire and yard sale groups and I don't plan to sit and float there while they try and get there act together to try and make it across the portage. In my opinion, my landing and moving through them is not the etiquette faux pau, but rather there blocking and taking up the whole landing area.

The dog one has been discussed to length on here. I leash on portages all the time, but not in camp. No plans to change.

OMGitsKa: "

LesliesDad: "Did the Tuscarora portage once. Other groups would have a long, long, long, long wait if they were waiting for me to finish. :-)"

Let me know when you are done buddy! I will just wait here in the water for an hour. "

An hour? I wish I was that fast.

I'll add - just be courteous and keep your stuff out of the way. I've had some great discussions and met some great people on portages, whether we land at the same end or they're coming the opposite direction. It's nice to have a little chat. I've in fact bumped into a few folks from the board that way, sometimes I'm the one landing and other times it's been them. Not once did I get the impression that any of us felt like we were intruding.

Great discussions were had about the board, about an awesome swift boat...and in one instance about a very well behaved Lab (off leash). We inquired about greeting and petting the dog before doing so. We've talked about walleye holes, grouse and a number of other things...all with board members here at the portage landings.

I have seen or seen, evidence of just about all of the rules being violated. I know folks on this forum are above average about following the rules.....but come on folks, it's about taking care of the common....or as the old man said " you don't s**t on the trail to the outhouse"

We had the worst time last year going into and out of Knife Lake from Moose Lake. It was incredibly busy and groups were taking their sweet old time to even get out of their canoe onto land. We ran into more than one group that would park their canoes across the portage entry, essentially blocking it off and send one person with one pack across the portage and the rest would wait for that person to get back before the others would move their crap. Meanwhile, one person would wait with the canoes that were blocking the portage. We were scolded more than once for getting our gear to the other end of the portage before they had actually left. It was maddening and it still gets me worked up thinking about it.

I'm passing slow groups on portage every single time.

My point in posting was to demonstrate that following the rules seems to be completely up to each individuals interpretation of what they want to do and not do. It can be seen in this thread, many will not abide by some rules, but adamantly go to the mat on others. Just an observation, having reread the rules when pulling my permit. So the rules are kind of like the pirate code. Simply a suggestion.

grizzlyadams: "We had the worst time last year going into and out of Knife Lake from Moose Lake. It was incredibly busy and groups were taking their sweet old time to even get out of their canoe onto land. We ran into more than one group that would park their canoes across the portage entry, essentially blocking it off and send one person with one pack across the portage and the rest would wait for that person to get back before the others would move their crap. Meanwhile, one person would wait with the canoes that were blocking the portage. We were scolded more than once for getting our gear to the other end of the portage before they had actually left. It was maddening and it still gets me worked up thinking about it."

I hate dealing with people like that. I support etiquette and I support the idea that the park is a place where folks come to slow down and move at whatever pace they feel like... BUT... when you know you and/or your group is moving very slow in relation to the other parties around you, and there's one single path from point A to point B that everyone needs to use, curb the entitlement or deal with the fact that folks might criss-cross the trail with you and god forbid, unload their gear before you have vacated. I haven't run into anyone scolding me yet but I would give them a piece of my mind if they did.

ockycamper: "So the rules are kind of like the pirate code. Simply a suggestion."

I wouldn't say that. For me it goes to the intent, whether implied or written. If memory serves me the rule previously read that on portages you shouldn't create a situation where there are more than 4 canoes and 9 people on the portage...my guess is this became difficult to police and/or abide by as groups move across the portage and gear lands at both ends. The original intent was to avoid crowding and keep a large number of people and canoes in one place limited. At least that's my read on the intent.

If you have a a dumpster fire of a group on a busy route, you're going to then subsequently end up with people just piled up in the water or on the portage. Which is exactly what we came across recently on a portage between Long Island and Ham. All was clear, we landed - I carried my boat across and came to the other side, where there were 4 guys, two old towns and enough loose gear to likely sink the two old towns scattered across the entire landing area. I set my boat just up the hill from the landing to stay out of the way, and went back for my pack, as did the other fella I was with (2 solos). We got to the other side and another party was coming up to the portage, we said our hello's, grabbed the packs and went back. Now on the other side, we find the other group, both canoes still on land, stuff every where and still trying to get thier act together. There was another party waiting in the water at that end as well. So at this point we now have 4 groups, a total of 7 canoes and 12 people all on or waiting for the portage. All of which technically followed or are attempting to follow the rule.

I kept my pack on, grabbed my boat and threw it over head and just walked through, stepping over thier stuff, around thier canoes and into the water. Dropped my canoe in the water, pack off the back and paddled away.

The intent of the rule is to avoid crowding. I got out of the way to do so. Sitting on the portage and waiting, was only adding to the mess that this group created.

I hate dealing with people like that. I support etiquette and I support the idea that the park is a place where folks come to slow down and move at whatever pace they feel like... BUT... when you know you and/or your group is moving very slow in relation to the other parties around you, and there's one single path from point A to point B that everyone needs to use, curb the entitlement or deal with the fact that folks might criss-cross the trail with you and god forbid, unload their gear before you have vacated. I haven't run into anyone scolding me yet but I would give them a piece of my mind if they did. "


Last year was the first time I have dealt with anything like that. Normally people are very courteous and aware of others. Like you said, in busy areas you are going to cross paths with other groups, unload your things off to the sides in case a group is coming from the other direction or a more efficient group ends up coming up from behind. I have never had any issues with people passing me on a portage, I step off to the side, exchange some pleasantries and continue on my way.

We have all read your posts ockycamper. You're an older group that does one portage hoping to get the same me campsite every year because you only Basecamp and fish. I really hope it continues to go in your favor. Good luck .

I think everything I've read in this thread in regards to the camp Krusty people at portages is due to:

Inexperience
Ignorance
Poor group leadership.

It's a learned or unlearned behavior. I don't think those sort of groups know how badly they are performing. And I sort of feel bad for them and hope they find experience and good mentors.

When a well-skilled group comes along that know and understands etiquette and procedure, it makes observing the camp Krusty people a frustrating experience.

For me, and like others have said, I come in like a Ninja, get my stuff on shore, out of the way and do my thang. I cannot possibly wait for dumpster fire portagers. I would go insane.

Cheers my friends.
Tom

When are you going Oky, did you dicide on a later date this year?

Going the last week of September.

Change it up this year. In the past I pulled permits for all four groups myself for the church as you don't have to designate a group leader. We added names to the groups as things progressed.

However, showing up with 17 men at the outfitter that had to go into four groups things pretty much fell apart. Even though I had put the right people on each permit, and even emailed exact lists of who was in each group, the outfitter was overwhelmed and it was pretty much confusion getting off.

This year each group leader will pull their own permit and arrange whatever shuttles are needed.

Didn't mean to irritate anyone with the regs oberservation. We go late enough in the year that groups landing on the portage and moving through at the same time ony happened last year. If there are people in front of us who are struggling, our practice is to offer to help and then help carry their gear through before ours.

Yes, we are an older group. (50's and 60s). We are also base campers. I'd like to think we have also learned to enjoy the times waiting and not having to get somewhere first. It probably also helped that we bring muffins to eat at portages if we have to wait on another group!

ockycamper: "It probably also helped that we bring muffins to eat at portages if we have to wait on another group!"

Toss me a blueberry muffin and i'll happily float in front of the portage with you.

And these are not just any muffins. . . these are muffins from the deli the size of baseballs!

There is a method behind the muffins. I don't pass them out unless we are waiting at a portage, or we are through the portage and back in the canoes.

No one minds the wait eating blueberry muffins

This world would be a far better place if everyone would just embrace the concepts of etiquette and awareness of your surroundings... The earth revolves around the sun, not your little biomass of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and calcium.

Ockycamper - After 5 or 6 days in the backcountry eating dehydrated food, I'd be happy to help carry a bag or two across the portage for one of those blueberry muffins!

Considering how cramped many portage landings are, it only seems like good manners to land and quickly assemble your gear up the trail and a little off to the side so you are not in anyone’s way. Particularly if you are like me and plan to double (or triple) portage. I would like to think a thoughtful person would do that even if it wasn’t a rule.
On the other hand, if those in front of you have cluttered the portage landing with equipment while they have lunch, then I need to step over that.

ockycamper
If there are people in front of us who are struggling, our practice is to offer to help and then help carry their gear through before ours.
"

When I first read that you did this I was shaking my head until I realized we did the same thing one time. On a portage we came upon a group that was going a far jaunt to get a campsite because the lake we were on had all the campsites taken and it was about 5 pm in late August. They were tired overloaded with yes "Coolers". Then we decided to help them portage their unmanaged gear to speed up their time. We were not crossing this portage, just checking on people and to see if it needed brushing out. There we were, BWCA rangers with badges and volunteers (One in his 60's, me) portaging their gear. We got their gear across in a jiffy and managed to meet them about 3 more times as they were going the same exact rout as we were for the next two days.

It is funny what people say to Rangers with badges. One woman on that portage that we helped who must have been a leader said that 'if they didn't make it to a campsite they would just bushwack a camp, even if it was in Canada". We did not engage/chat with them in this endeavor, I don't think we even commented that this was a bad idea, we just shrugged it off and chuckled. Some people try to get a rise out us rangers.

LesliesDad: "Did the Tuscarora portage once. Other groups would have a long, long, long, long wait if they were waiting for me to finish. :-)"

Yup, I was pretty slow on that one last year. Luckily my son and daughter in law were fast and fit, and started to bring both my and my husbands second bag across (with theirs) before I could get back for the second load.

On a portage that long there is no way one group could know about 1 or 2 groups at the opposite landing so it is easy to see why too many people would be there.

Tuscarora portage will get your heart pumping for sure. Especially coming back from Tuscarora to Missing Link. I think it's way worse that direction.

Speckled: "Tuscarora portage will get your heart pumping for sure. Especially coming back from Tuscarora to Missing Link. I think it's way worse that direction."

Yep . . . that was our route back to Round Lake. Hard to portage a 72 lb Old Town canoe while crawling up a hill on all fours. :-)

LesliesDad: "

Speckled: "Tuscarora portage will get your heart pumping for sure. Especially coming back from Tuscarora to Missing Link. I think it's way worse that direction."

Yep . . . that was our route back to Round Lake. Hard to portage a 72 lb Old Town canoe while crawling up a hill on all fours. :-)"

I didn't end up on all fours, but I did seriously question at one point if the way I was feeling was a heart attack or just a bit of heat exhuastion...we had the pleasure of completing it that direction on an unusually hot and sunny spring day.

#6 If a group is actively loading or unloading, we wait patiently on the water. If the portage is short, we will wait until all their gear has started on a trip across before we unload. However, if it is a longer portage and a group is double (or triple) portaging, it is unreasonable to wait for them. My group single portages and take only about 2 minutes to load or unload, so I have no issue with moving on past politely. Our gear rarely even touches the ground.

Some hypothetical math: On some of my solo trips, I have averaged 10 portages a day. Let's say I somehow end up behind a group that double portages for the whole day (like I said, hypothetical). If each portage is an average of 80 rods, it would take them about 30 minutes to clear each portage whereas it would take me 10 minutes. Twenty extra minutes times 10 portages adds 3+ hours to my travel day. Whew, makes me glad I pick isolated routes and that most people these days seem to base camp. On my trips the last 2 summers, I have rarely run into even a single group while actually on a portage or at a landing.

Most of the instances where we have ended up at a put-in the same time as another group is when we start crossing with no idea another group was ahead of us on a 100+ rod portage. No gear was at the take out but when we arrive at the other end with our single trip of gear, the landing is filled with another group that has just finished. During the pandemic, we needed stoplights at each end to control traffic. Fortunately, it is much better lately.

I have witnessed rangers giving groups a healthy scolding when they are eating or lounging at the end of a busy portage. We always pull up to a random rocky place to eat rather than stop at a portage. I don't like to eat at empty campsites because someone might think the site is taken for the night.

6. Practice portage etiquette. Wait on the water until group in front of you is gone.

"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it." - Henry David Thoreau

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them." - Robert A. Heinlein

"The secret of breaking rules in a way that works is understanding what the rules are in the first place." - Rick Wakeman

"Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist." - Pablo Picasso

Minnesotian: "
6. Practice portage etiquette. Wait on the water until group in front of you is gone.


"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it." - Henry David Thoreau


"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them." - Robert A. Heinlein


"The secret of breaking rules in a way that works is understanding what the rules are in the first place." - Rick Wakeman


"Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist." - Pablo Picasso


"

pretty much the definition of anarchy

tumblehome: "For me, and like others have said, I come in like a Ninja, get my stuff on shore, out of the way and do my thang. I cannot possibly wait for dumpster fire portagers. I would go insane.

Cheers my friends.
Tom"

Same, including going insane.

I’ll ask if they mind my landing off to the side if it looks like there is room, but when solo I am generally 2 minutes or less to go from the water to walking, single-carrying. Less than one minute from walking to water…so I am likely to move past other groups quickly & thus reduce the traffic jam.

And Tom: it’s Kamp Krusty. :-) Hope you are having a good winter.

From the replies that I read a lot of people think number 6 should be more relaxed. Which I agree with. But I am probably guilty of breaking some of these rules

"Max. penalty of $5,000 and/or 6 months in jail."

Many of those listed rules are subject to the above statement and are unambiguous, however, #6 is not. I've passed plenty of rangers at portages in both the BWCA and Q, and they have passed me. Never an issue. That said, the issue eluded to by #6 is real. Etiquette is very important but it goes in both directions. Lack of knowing the proper etiquette is what gives rise to most of the issues. In this regard the yard sale on the portage is a big one, definitely one of the most common to come across. I agree with Speckled comments below.

Speckled: "For me - Portage Etiquette is making sure when you land, you get your stuff out of the way to allow others to do the same. I pull my canoes off to the side and set all of our gear together also off to the side, to allow other groups to move through.

I've come upon some real dumpster fire and yard sale groups and I don't plan to sit and float there while they try and get there act together to try and make it across the portage. In my opinion, my landing and moving through them is not the etiquette faux pau, but rather there blocking and taking up the whole landing area.

The dog one has been discussed to length on here. I leash on portages all the time, but not in camp. No plans to change. "

After 25 trips, I've had very few portage issues.

If the landing is packed, we float and wait.
But almost always, we pull in to the side, unload our stuff and put it in a single, designated area. We try to carry the canoes over first.

At the other end, we drop the canoe in the water, off to the side if needed. And we start to load it as gear comes over.

There always seems to be plenty of space for other groups to do the same thing.

Maybe I just don't go on routes with newbies or inconsiderate folks.

ockycamper: "

Minnesotian: "
6. Practice portage etiquette. Wait on the water until group in front of you is gone.



"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it." - Henry David Thoreau



"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them." - Robert A. Heinlein



"The secret of breaking rules in a way that works is understanding what the rules are in the first place." - Rick Wakeman



"Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist." - Pablo Picasso



"

pretty much the definition of anarchy"

"7. Damaging any living plant is illegal. Never cut a live tree!"

This seems vague. Do people avoid running over the blue flag iris flowers, or any other plants, when landing their canoe at a portage or while walking around in a campsite? When gathering firewood, how do I avoid damaging any living plants as I walk around on grass, or moss, or saplings? How am I supposed to exactly comply with this rule of not damaging ANY living plants?

I know I am in the minority, and I understand that, but I think when we begin saying "I only will follow the rules that I want or think make sense" we run a slippery slope. You may think the "leash at all times rule" is dumb, others may think the "wait before portaging rule" is senseless. But what if I think the "permit for the day listed" is the rule I think is dumb, or the "don't wash your dishes in the lake" is the one I think is sensless. If we all get to decide within our own judgement which rules to follow and how to follow them--why have them at all? Why not just post a "guideline" document and let people do whatever the heck they feel is appropriate".

There are rules that I think make sense, others that I believe are necessary and some that I think are goofy-- but I still follow them. Without them, there is no complaining if the guy ahead of you isn't following one that you may agree with.

wxce1260: "I know I am in the minority, and I understand that, but I think when we begin saying "I only will follow the rules that I want or think make sense" we run a slippery slope. You may think the "leash at all times rule" is dumb, others may think the "wait before portaging rule" is senseless. But what if I think the "permit for the day listed" is the rule I think is dumb, or the "don't wash your dishes in the lake" is the one I think is sensless. If we all get to decide within our own judgement which rules to follow and how to follow them--why have them at all? Why not just post a "guideline" document and let people do whatever the heck they feel is appropriate".


There are rules that I think make sense, others that I believe are necessary and some that I think are goofy-- but I still follow them. Without them, there is no complaining if the guy ahead of you isn't following one that you may agree with."

My point

Is it possible one of you are the guy driving exactly the speed limit in the left lane?

..."you don't s**t on the trail to the outhouse" "

Many of us have seen evidence of that behavior.

wxce1260: "I know I am in the minority, and I understand that, but I think when we begin saying "I only will follow the rules that I want or think make sense" we run a slippery slope. You may think the "leash at all times rule" is dumb, others may think the "wait before portaging rule" is senseless. But what if I think the "permit for the day listed" is the rule I think is dumb, or the "don't wash your dishes in the lake" is the one I think is sensless. If we all get to decide within our own judgement which rules to follow and how to follow them--why have them at all? Why not just post a "guideline" document and let people do whatever the heck they feel is appropriate".


There are rules that I think make sense, others that I believe are necessary and some that I think are goofy-- but I still follow them. Without them, there is no complaining if the guy ahead of you isn't following one that you may agree with."

+1

Many of these rules are ambiguous.

2. Define “quiet”. Do I need to whisper in camp? Can I be cited for a ticket for screaming while cliff jumping or catching a trophy fish?

6. Define portage etiquette. Also does “gone” mean completed their portage, out of sight, or out of the way?

7. Every time you walk in the woods (off trail) you damage living vegetation. Every time you walk on grass in your camp, you are damaging living vegetation.

8. As written, any time you use a camp saw or hatchet to process firewood you can’t break (easily!!!) by hand you are breaking the rules.

The intent of the rules is clear. Do not damage the land/water and be considerate of the experience of others.

Hammertime: "Many of these rules are ambiguous.


2. Define “quiet”. Do I need to whisper in camp? Can I be cited for a ticket for screaming while cliff jumping or catching a trophy fish?


6. Define portage etiquette. Also does “gone” mean completed their portage, out of sight, or out of the way?


7. Every time you walk in the woods (off trail) you damage living vegetation. Every time you walk on grass in your camp, you are damaging living vegetation.


8. As written, any time you use a camp saw or hatchet to process firewood you can’t break (easily!!!) by hand you are breaking the rules.


The intent of the rules is clear. Do not damage the land/water and be considerate of the experience of others.



"

This is where i'm at - be a good person, be considerate and follow the intent of the rules...as a one or two sentence rule cannot possibly cover the extent of the scenarios one will run into.

Portage etiquette is a well discussed a matter of opinion coming out clearly. I learned to be the responsible adult, to respect and to have fun. Getting upset over camp krusty is a choice, being amused is another.
#8 seems too specific and frankly unreasonable. Collecting away from campsite and at least 20 feet from shoreline has been my training. 4-6 in pieces cut about 5 feet long fit in my log carrier/kneeling pad at the fire and can be brought back to the canoe with ease. It is important to consider burning larger pieces of wood can be a fire hazard, make sure they are out cold.

Interesting thread. I think I took my last BW trip in late October 2018. Why, because my buddy and I wanted to avoid the crowds and behaviors referenced above and we don’t mind cool/cold weather. I trip almost exclusively in Canada now and will pay in time and money for the solitude available there. And I am old and my tripping days are winding down so I want enjoy the trips I take. I live in a densely populated urban area with plenty of built-in daily aggravation so I really want to get away from it on trips.

I’ll never forget one portage, super short going in to Cherokee Lake. There had to be like 20 Boy Scouts with stuff spread everywhere. We waited for a good bit in the water then when they finally gave us enough room to land our canoes at least, we sat on rocks at the take out side, had a snack & watched the show. They were carrying these 5 gallon plastic collapsible water containers, bad idea, and the one dad kept imploring his son - You have to drink more water! like berating him, like the kid was going to die of dehydration after a simple walk in the woods. I’ll never forget the poor kid’s response in that high pitched voice that I can only describe as a member of the Venetian Boys Choir that just got kicked in the stones, ‘But I’m not thirsty!’…
Felt sorry for that kid, it looked like he was in for a long week.
And they weren’t following the rules, isn’t that a bad example for the dads to set. Not that I really care, it was entertaining and I will leave it there.

Any reports of anyone being fined or jailed for not complying with these regulations?

The point of the post was I thought it would be interesting to see the reaction of BWCA posters to the list. You are affirming you will abide by the rules on the list when you pull permits. However, based on the thread, it appears rule conformity is selective.

ockycamper: "The point of the post was I thought it would be interesting to see the reaction of BWCA posters to the list. You are affirming you will abide by the rules on the list when you pull permits. However, based on the thread, it appears rule conformity is selective."

And enforcement too.

billconner: "Any reports of anyone being fined or jailed for not complying with these regulations?"

info on 2000 to 2023

Edit: When I searched the full report linked at the end of the article, the words portaging or etiquette do not appear in the document.

Another is rule #12.
Theres only 3 exemptions given (fuel canisters, insect repellent and medicines) no exemption given for a can of bear spray but everyone just kind of says, “well…thats fine. You can bring a can of bear spray”. Maybe consider bear spray a large, furry, 4-legged insect repellent?

It would seem these rules really are just guidelines. Interpret them in whatever way is convenient for you, I guess.

The last time I lead a BSA Troop trip to the BWCAW, I saw 2 other scout troops, a Girl Scout troop and what appeared to be 2 church groups all in violation of the 9 people 4 canoe rules… As a fellow scouter it was really disappointing to see fellow scout leaders not teaching scouts the rules…it was also disappointing to see groups allegedly dedicated to God…who don’t think of others or the rules…

Historically speaking it’s exactly these groups that inspired to the FS to add the rule, your group cannot contain more than 9 people or 4 canoes. They pull 2-3 permits, travel as mega groups, and think they are “following the rules”. Before I took (or joined) over our troop trips used to do a 30 minute wait for the second group to start…which inevitably never works—they would run into each other and still be a mega group.


I was surprised by Planders link…the FS does enforce this rule on groups it appears. It didn’t seem like it to me when I went…

–176 people cited for using a campsite or other area described in the order by more than the number of users allowed by the order

We now do loops but in opposite directions to avoid it. Hopefully we keep that up when my boys are done and not revert back to skirting the rules.

T

Hammertime: "
The intent of the rules is clear. Do not damage the land/water and be considerate of the experience of others.
"

I agree

timatkn: "The last time I lead a BSA Troop trip to the BWCAW, I saw 2 other scout troops, a Girl Scout troop and what appeared to be 2 church groups all in violation of the 9 people 4 canoe rules… As a fellow scouter it was really disappointing to see fellow scout leaders not teaching scouts the rules…it was also disappointing to see groups allegedly dedicated to God…who don’t think of others or the rules…


Historically speaking it’s exactly these groups that inspired to the FS to add the rule, your group cannot contain more than 9 people or 4 canoes. They pull 2-3 permits, travel as mega groups, and think they are “following the rules”. Before I took (or joined) over our troop trips used to do a 30 minute wait for the second group to start…which inevitably never works—they would run into each other and still be a mega group.



I was surprised by Planders link…the FS does enforce this rule on groups it appears. It didn’t seem like it to me when I went…


–176 people cited for using a campsite or other area described in the order by more than the number of users allowed by the order


We now do loops but in opposite directions to avoid it. Hopefully we keep that up when my boys are done and not revert back to skirting the rules.


T"

Our men's church group goes up every fall, late September. Typically 15-20 men. We divide into 3-4 groups before even going, and pull permits. To make sure the above is not a problem, some pull Saganaga, others Seagull. Some paddle, others take the shuttle. Even if the groups decide to base camp on the same lake, it is rare we ever see each other as most are out fishing.

Hence, I paddle in Quetico and only do BWCA trips in the off seasons.

ockycamper: "

timatkn: "The last time I lead a BSA Troop trip to the BWCAW, I saw 2 other scout troops, a Girl Scout troop and what appeared to be 2 church groups all in violation of the 9 people 4 canoe rules… As a fellow scouter it was really disappointing to see fellow scout leaders not teaching scouts the rules…it was also disappointing to see groups allegedly dedicated to God…who don’t think of others or the rules…



Historically speaking it’s exactly these groups that inspired to the FS to add the rule, your group cannot contain more than 9 people or 4 canoes. They pull 2-3 permits, travel as mega groups, and think they are “following the rules”. Before I took (or joined) over our troop trips used to do a 30 minute wait for the second group to start…which inevitably never works—they would run into each other and still be a mega group.



I was surprised by Planders link…the FS does enforce this rule on groups it appears. It didn’t seem like it to me when I went…



–176 people cited for using a campsite or other area described in the order by more than the number of users allowed by the order



We now do loops but in opposite directions to avoid it. Hopefully we keep that up when my boys are done and not revert back to skirting the rules.



T"

Our men's church group goes up every fall, late September. Typically 15-20 men. We divide into 3-4 groups before even going, and pull permits. To make sure the above is not a problem, some pull Saganaga, others Seagull. Some paddle, others take the shuttle. Even if the groups decide to base camp on the same lake, it is rare we ever see each other as most are out fishing. "

Exactly! It isn’t that hard to follow the rules and still take even multiple groups up. Thanks for doing it the right way and setting a good example!

T

The only time we are at risk in my camp of some in the other groups showing up is on New York cheese cake night!

I also found this in a Q and A sight:

No, hiking off the established trails is not allowed in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness (BWCAW); you must stay on designated hiking trails, as the primary mode of travel within the area is by canoe, and venturing off trails can damage the sensitive ecosystem.
Key points about hiking in the BWCAW:
Permits required: You need a permit to hike any trails within the BWCAW.
Designated trails only: Hiking is only allowed on established trails.
Canoeing focus: The BWCAW is primarily designed for canoeing, with most access to lakes and campsites via waterways.
Potential consequences: Hiking off trails can result in citations from park rangers.

I know a lot of people talk about "bushwacking". Doesn't seem to be allowed

Bushwhacking is primarily talked about in Quetico or Primitive management areas in the BWCAW, not regular BWCAW routes. These are the only areas where it is practical to bushwhack.

Primitive management areas of the BWCAW have different rules, that in a nutshell shell, encourage bushwhacking. They don’t want established trails to lakes or people using the same trail over and over. They want one time use so the wilderness reclaims wherever you walked/traveled. Whenever I’ve gone into primitive management areas you could follow behind me and you would never know where I walked or where I camped.

In Quetico you are going to lakes that aren’t traveled often or at all in a park that technically doesn’t have campsites or portage maintenance although maintenance occurs but is optional. Once again different rules.

T

ockycamper: "I also found this in a Q and A sight:


No, hiking off the established trails is not allowed in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness (BWCAW); you must stay on designated hiking trails, as the primary mode of travel within the area is by canoe, and venturing off trails can damage the sensitive ecosystem.
Key points about hiking in the BWCAW:
Permits required: You need a permit to hike any trails within the BWCAW.
Designated trails only: Hiking is only allowed on established trails.
Canoeing focus: The BWCAW is primarily designed for canoeing, with most access to lakes and campsites via waterways.
Potential consequences: Hiking off trails can result in citations from park rangers.


I know a lot of people talk about "bushwacking". Doesn't seem to be allowed
"

So it's technically not legal to follow the stated rules of fish disposal, or firewood gathering. I believe both require one to stray, or "bushwhack" off trails, away from established campsites & trails...

The discussion revolves around the Spirit of law vs Letter of law.

The spirit of the law is the purpose of a law, while the letter of the law is the exact words of the law. Following the spirit of the law means following the law's intent, while following the letter of the law means following the law's exact wording.

I have a daughter who is an attorney representing several colleges.

Try going to court and telling the judge "but I followed the spirit of the law!"

ockycamper: "I also found this in a Q and A sight:


No, hiking off the established trails is not allowed in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness (BWCAW); you must stay on designated hiking trails, as the primary mode of travel within the area is by canoe, and venturing off trails can damage the sensitive ecosystem.
Key points about hiking in the BWCAW:
Permits required: You need a permit to hike any trails within the BWCAW.
Designated trails only: Hiking is only allowed on established trails.
Canoeing focus: The BWCAW is primarily designed for canoeing, with most access to lakes and campsites via waterways.
Potential consequences: Hiking off trails can result in citations from park rangers.


I know a lot of people talk about "bushwacking". Doesn't seem to be allowed
"

It's legal to grouse hunt in the BW, rules state you can't discharge the gun on/in portages, trails or campsites within some distance (didn't look up the actual rule). Contradictory to this rule...as others have noted, theirs numerous contradictions in thier rules. I wonder if there is a a more detialed set of rules exists that covers all these discrepancies and one two sentances we get with our video or permit are just a summary.

ockycamper: "I have a daughter who is an attorney representing several colleges.


Try going to court and telling the judge "but I followed the spirit of the law!""

See my left lane driver reference: There is nothing so egregious as the "righteous" exploiting of the letter of the law that violates the spirit of the law.

I'd urge you to forgive those who trespass against you, even in the wilderness.

scat: "the one dad kept imploring his son - You have to drink more water! like berating him, like the kid was going to die of dehydration after a simple walk in the woods. I’ll never forget the poor kid’s response in that high pitched voice that I can only describe as a member of the Venetian Boys Choir that just got kicked in the stones, ‘But I’m not thirsty!’…
Felt sorry for that kid, it looked like he was in for a long week."

My husband worked at Sommer's (the scout base) one summer and he said that hands down the most common reason for groups to end their trips early was because one of the dads would get a kidney stone from not drinking enough water. Maybe the guy you saw had been one of the ones shuttled out in a previous year and took it upon himself to prevent a recurrence. Sounds like his technique could have used some work.

Speckled: "I wonder if there is a a more detialed set of rules exists that covers all these discrepancies and one two sentances we get with our video or permit are just a summary."

Here you go, this thread leads to a discussion on what are the rules. Enjoy. Thread about Rules & Regulations of BWCA

This thread has jumped the shark so many times I’m surprised it’s still going. And yet it does….

Jaywalker: "This thread has jumped the shark so many times I’m surprised it’s still going. And yet it does…."

Contrary to popular belief, the "Jumping the Shark" episode of Happy Days was a huge success drawing 30 million viewers and the show went on to air another 164 episodes.

Jaywalker: "This thread has jumped the shark so many times I’m surprised it’s still going. And yet it does…."

As a fairly long time member…I am surprised you are surprised :)

T

How about rewriting portage etiquette.
1. When portaging, try to keep a clear path and landing area for people behind you that might be moving faster than you.
2. If you cannot help blocking a portage path or landing, try to move as quickly and safely as possible to clear the portage.
3. Portage landings and portage trails are not a good place for lunch, rest, or toilet spots. Crowding should be avoided.
4.People walking a portage trail with a pack should yield to those carrying a canoe, and those with no load should yield to those with a load.
5. Dogs should be kept in complete control while on portage landings/trails.
6. Always be kind and considerate of others.

mgraber: "How about rewriting portage etiquette.
1. When portaging, try to keep a clear path and landing area for people behind you that might be moving faster than you.
2. If you cannot help blocking a portage path or landing, try to move as quickly and safely as possible to clear the portage.
3. Portage landings and portage trails are not a good place for lunch, rest, or toilet spots. Crowding should be avoided.
4.People walking a portage trail with a pack should yield to those carrying a canoe, and those with no load should yield to those with a load.
5. Dogs should be kept in complete control while on portage landings/trails.
6. Always be kind and considerate of others."

Last August we were starting our portage back West to EP-30 when we meet another group at the landing heading East into Lake Two. Some guy in other group insisted upon carrying one our packs back with him, as he returned to get his canoe. I still can't figure out if he does this for everyone, or if he was just taking pity on me in particular.

I don't think I would like someone from another party trying to haul my gear for me. Sometimes trying to be helpful is no help at all. We have an unspoken system for how we bring our gear across to make sure nothing is left behind and having another person mess with that would just result in anxiety and double-checking everything.

Yep, I'll offer to help, sometimes, on a return trip (I double portage, usually). Won't touch anything unless someone would like a hand. Some folks definitely appreciate a hand; others, definitely not... All good.

I’m waiting to hear about someone getting fined $5,000 or spending time in jail for some of the more serious violations. Portages can sometimes be crowded but have never run into anyone being a jerk. We get reports each year about violations but nothing about what was done with those who did the violating.

mgraber: "How about rewriting portage etiquette.
1. When portaging, try to keep a clear path and landing area for people behind you that might be moving faster than you.
2. If you cannot help blocking a portage path or landing, try to move as quickly and safely as possible to clear the portage.
3. Portage landings and portage trails are not a good place for lunch, rest, or toilet spots. Crowding should be avoided.
4.People walking a portage trail with a pack should yield to those carrying a canoe, and those with no load should yield to those with a load.
5. Dogs should be kept in complete control while on portage landings/trails.
6. Always be kind and considerate of others."

This is my credo.

rtallent: "Yep, I'll offer to help, sometimes, on a return trip (I double portage, usually). Won't touch anything unless someone would like a hand. Some folks definitely appreciate a hand; others, definitely not... All good."

I'll offer if it's a friendly and interactive group. I can usually get a feel for that. I'm sure the offer throws a lot of people off and they don't know what to do or say.

Mike

rtallent: "Yep, I'll offer to help, sometimes, on a return trip (I double portage, usually). Won't touch anything unless someone would like a hand. Some folks definitely appreciate a hand; others, definitely not... All good."

+1

OldGuide2: "I’m waiting to hear about someone getting fined $5,000 or spending time in jail for some of the more serious violations. Portages can sometimes be crowded but have never run into anyone being a jerk. We get reports each year about violations but nothing about what was done with those who did the violating."

You used to be able to see the violations and fines or maybe that was in one of posts a fellow member used to put up of news articles. Seems like it’s harder to find now a days.

What I remember was cutting a live tree, bring cans or bottles, going over the limits of group size.…about a $180 to $250 fine.

My guess…and it’s only a guess…is that getting a bigger fine or jail time depends on how you react…get bilgerent then maybe a fine for every single bottle or can or piece of live tree you cut. Or maybe if you are a frequent flyer abuser…Think of some of the multiple users caught with motor boats or snowmobiles in the BWCAW. And of course there was the “Ely 6” who terrorized campers in 2006 or 2007. Some of them did jail time…one broke probation by entering the BWCAW illegally after doing their time and got to do more jail time…

For portaging at the same time as another group you have no affiliation with??? That has NEVER happened.

T

timatkn: "

OldGuide2: "I’m waiting to hear about someone getting fined $5,000 or spending time in jail for some of the more serious violations. Portages can sometimes be crowded but have never run into anyone being a jerk. We get reports each year about violations but nothing about what was done with those who did the violating."

You used to be able to see the violations and fines or maybe that was in one of posts a fellow member used to put up of news articles. Seems like it’s harder to find now a days.


What I remember was cutting a live tree, bring cans or bottles, going over the limits of group size.…about a $180 to $250 fine.


My guess…and it’s only a guess…is that getting a bigger fine or jail time depends on how you react…get bilgerent then maybe a fine for every single bottle or can or piece of live tree you cut. Or maybe if you are a frequent flyer abuser…Think of some of the multiple users caught with motor boats or snowmobiles in the BWCAW. And of course there was the “Ely 6” who terrorized campers in 2006 or 2007. Some of them did jail time…one broke probation by entering the BWCAW illegally after doing their time and got to do more jail time…


For portaging at the same time as another group you have no affiliation with??? That has NEVER happened.


T"

This is the problem I have with the regulations. In theory they could fine you thousands of dollars and send you to jail for a very minor infraction just because the officer and/or judge doesn't like you.

I suspect it was done this way because they are too lazy to come up with a set of escalating penalties. But the end result grants the government way too much power.

There are fewer rangers in the BWCA to issue tickets so you don't see much about people paying fines. Try to follow the rules to the best of your ability and be courteous with any ranger and you aren't likely to be fined, even though you broke one or more of the rules.

plmn: "This is the problem I have with the regulations. In theory they could fine you thousands of dollars and send you to jail for a very minor infraction just because the officer and/or judge doesn't like you.


I suspect it was done this way because they are too lazy to come up with a set of escalating penalties. But the end result grants the government way too much power. "

That's for just about any law or set of regulations out there.

Two people kill a person under the same circumstances and end up with different sentences.

It would be way easier and fairer to list the mandatory penalties on the back of the permit. The permit is essentially a signed contract. Camping illegally, cutting live vegetation, having too any people in group, having fire outside of fire grates in open water season should result in mandatory fines due to breech of contract and/or vandalizing federal or state property.

Sylvania Wilderness Area, Ottawa NF, western UP Michigan. This is an accessible area which is heavily used in the summer and enforcement of the usual USFS Wilderness regulations is strictly enforced. And they do issue citations at the full $ amount which may have increased from what this notice states. The understand the biggest violations are possession of cans/bottles and fishing violations (which are specialized for this unique area).

plmn: "

timatkn: "

OldGuide2: "I’m waiting to hear about someone getting fined $5,000 or spending time in jail for some of the more serious violations. Portages can sometimes be crowded but have never run into anyone being a jerk. We get reports each year about violations but nothing about what was done with those who did the violating."

You used to be able to see the violations and fines or maybe that was in one of posts a fellow member used to put up of news articles. Seems like it’s harder to find now a days.



What I remember was cutting a live tree, bring cans or bottles, going over the limits of group size.…about a $180 to $250 fine.



My guess…and it’s only a guess…is that getting a bigger fine or jail time depends on how you react…get bilgerent then maybe a fine for every single bottle or can or piece of live tree you cut. Or maybe if you are a frequent flyer abuser…Think of some of the multiple users caught with motor boats or snowmobiles in the BWCAW. And of course there was the “Ely 6” who terrorized campers in 2006 or 2007. Some of them did jail time…one broke probation by entering the BWCAW illegally after doing their time and got to do more jail time…



For portaging at the same time as another group you have no affiliation with??? That has NEVER happened.



T"

This is the problem I have with the regulations. In theory they could fine you thousands of dollars and send you to jail for a very minor infraction just because the officer and/or judge doesn't like you.


I suspect it was done this way because they are too lazy to come up with a set of escalating penalties. But the end result grants the government way too much power. "

We will agree to disagree. If a FS personnel over steps their boundaries there is a way to fight that legally. You can fight it and look at precedents set. That's why we have lawyers, litigation, and settlements. But I am always going to say circumstances and behavior matters and no two situations are the same.

If you are cutting down a live tree and you are a clueless idiot who shows genuine remorse. I have no problem with a simple fine. Now if you get aggressive and start saying they have no right to tell you what to do, make threats, don't cooperate etc...throw the book at them. As I said circumstances matter. One is less likely to be a repeat offender...the other has no respect for the rules and apparently doesn't think they should be enforced. They are obviously likely to re-offend so they need more incentive :) That's why discretion exists.

T

Speckled: "
It's legal to grouse hunt in the BW, rules state you can't discharge the gun on/in portages, trails or campsites within some distance (didn't look up the actual rule). Contradictory to this rule...as others have noted, theirs numerous contradictions in thier rules. I wonder if there is a a more detialed set of rules exists that covers all these discrepancies and one two sentances we get with our video or permit are just a summary."

This hits the nail on the head. The list quoted in the OP is not the actual "Rules and Regulations." There is no such single document. The rules are an amalgamation of items from the U.S. Code., Code of Federal Regulations, and various Forest Supervisor Orders. When someone receives a ticket or citation, it would cite one of these documents. As far as I know, there is no single, verbatim, compilation of these items.

The list that comes with your permit is a summary, written by some Forest Service employee. For example:
- "Practice portage etiquette" There is no document with the force of law that says this. If there were, it would be void for being too vague. Two independent groups simultaneously starting on opposite ends of a portage do not violate the rules.
- "use only dead and downed wood easily broken by hand, smaller than your wrist" This may be a good suggestion, but it is not illegal to use a hand saw or axe/hatchet to cut or split dead and downed wood. I have large wrists; does this mean I get to use larger firewood than someone with small wrists? Do the rangers carry calipers to take measurements?