Supervisor also quit and couldn't bare what happen to his fellow workers and friends.
The future of permit handling and resource management will be interesting.

Thanks for your service-we appreciated it

Nezhad spent the last nine years as a U.S. Forest Service employee preparing Boundary Waters paddlers for launch into the wilderness. She went through safety tips and signed off on permits.

Monday she was fired.

“It’s crazy,” she said.

“My supervisor never documented any poor performance.”

Nezhad started as a temporary seasonal worker in the Superior National Forest (SNF) in 2016, and was promoted to a permanent seasonal job last year at the Gunflint Ranger District office in Grand Marais. She also helped at the Tofte office.

The Forest Service, which is within the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is firing 3,400 employees, about a 10% reduction of the agency’s workforce, according to a Reuters report.


Sandee Nezhad, an employee at the Gunflint Ranger District office in Grand Marais, got news of her firing Monday. "It's crazy," she said. (Provided by Sandee Nezhad)
Her immediate supervisor abruptly retired, too, and now, Nezhad said, the Gunflint office that already dealt with staffing deficits has no employees. The office used to have seven or eight people.

This whole trump firing of federal employees has been a disaster. It is extremely hard on the employees and what exactly the expected outcome in fuzzy. I feel for the forest service. I am hoping to go to glacier national park this summer but what will be there?

"Who Will Speak for the Trees"

I wonder if this will encourage people to just go and enter wherever they want? Seems even less enforcement possible.

For me at least, a lot of the headlines don't really "hit home". You see all these layoffs at the federal level, and I just don't personally know anyone that works for the federal government. When things like this happen though, it does feel different than just reading the headlines. I figured it was only a matter of time where it would "hit close to home" if you will.

With their potential for limited hours, I was even considering finding a different permit issuer for my June trip but I went with the Gunflint station- not sure what to do now, granted its still 4 months away.

Moonpath: " I am hoping to go to glacier national park this summer but what will be there?"

Well, considering that the National Park Service was just forced to fire 1000 employes, I would expect longer lines, overflowing toilets, and less enforcement of the rules.

"A worker named Olek Chmura told TV station Fox26News that he’d no longer pick up trash and scoop up feces at Yosemite National Park.

The New York Times interviewed multiple NPS workers impacted by the cuts, among them Helen Dhue, a park guide at Palo Alto Battlefield National Historic Park in Brownsville, Texas, and Stacy Ramsey, a river ranger in Arkansas’ Buffalo National River. The latter told the Times that she writes warnings for the general public when parts of the river are dangerous. “If no one is there to educate, it increases the risk of someone getting hurt on the river,” Ramsey told the Times.

Politico quoted an anonymous NPS ranger in California who wrote about his termination on Facebook. “I honestly can’t imagine how the parks will operate without my position,” he said. “I am the only EMT at my park and the first responder for any emergency.”

According to the Associated Press, 16 of the 17 supervisor positions at Wyoming’s Grand Teton National Park were axed. At Shenandoah National Park, trail maintenance workers and fee collectors lost their jobs.

Gibbs’s job at Effigy Mounds was focused on education. He developed classroom programs, took schools on tours of the area when they arrived on field trips, and also visited local schools to discuss the cultural significance of the park."

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/hiking-and-backpacking/national-park-layoffs/

Maybe, hope not, I tried to be informative, just the facts and no more.
it seems like were all walking on eggshells and it becomes a situation where its tough to discuss anything.
These issues do affect all of us, some do care some do not.
At my age what happens today won't affect me, its that I care for the future of the BWCA more than me ever going there again. Lot off young people may like it there.
Tread lightly and maybe we can act like mature people whom respect others, and learn from others.

I will be deeply disappointed if this thread gets deleted.

The love of the canoe area wilderness is the main reason we all come to this forum.

The impact of the government actions directly affect the canoe area, our friends, families and our local economies.

If we cannot discuss such impacts, what is the point of the forum?

Mike

northerncanoe: "I will be deeply disappointed if this thread gets deleted.

The love of the canoe area wilderness is the main reason we all come to this forum.

The impact of the government actions directly affect the canoe area, our friends, families and our local economies.

If we cannot discuss such impacts, what is the point of the forum?

Mike"

I agree. I do not trust the idea that this is purely a well-intentioned attempt at fiscal responsibility. It is an obvious attempt to favor the powerful individuals and groups who backed the current administration. They are now working to allow mining and other activities that may not align with a robust system of environmental protection and preservation. I do not think privatization is off the table. Vance has often complained about the federal government having too much land. Trump vowed to tackle debt in 2017, yet it increased by more than 8.18 Trillion by 2021. This administration has yet to produce a plan to reduce debt, and these types of cost-cutting measures are cheap and symbolic political attacks.

The father of our National Parks, John Muir, said that cruelty was the only thing t he could absolutely not tolerate.

Just think if we went to a user supported system. What would it cost to go to the BWCA? $3000.00 a night. I have no idea, but I do get it. No one in North Minneapolis wants to pay for or subsidize my vacation.

Uncertain futures for our most cherished wild lands around the country, lots of emotions but surprise isn’t one.

tumblehome: "

ockycamper: "Another thread that is about to be deleted"

lol. I was waiting for your reply!
Good morning.
Tom"

Good morning! Good to hear from you. I am already plannng for this fall's trip. Will have over 20 men this time, going in four groups from two different entery points.

I understand the frustration others have expressed. However I also understand our nation is at a financial crossroads that requires serious decisions be made.

What will probably happen with areas like the BWCA is private donations and funding will step up to bridge the gap for services. And at the end of it, that may not be a bad thing.

Crazy levels of incompetence.

I wonder if the State of Minnesota could start ramping up enforcement of BWCAW regulations and take over where the feds have failed. The State owns some 80,000 acres in the wilderness, as well as ALL the lakes per the State constitution.

northerncanoe: "I will be deeply disappointed if this thread gets deleted.


The love of the canoe area wilderness is the main reason we all come to this forum.


The impact of the government actions directly affect the canoe area, our friends, families and our local economies.


If we cannot discuss such impacts, what is the point of the forum?


Mike
"

great comment, it would make more sense to delete individual posts in a specific forum discussion.

"Vance has often complained about the federal government having too much land. Trump vowed to tackle debt in 2017, yet it increased by more than 8.18 Trillion by 2021. This administration has yet to produce a plan to reduce debt, and these types of cost-cutting measures are cheap and symbolic political attacks."

And yet here we go.

“There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.” - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

I would hope this thread does not devolve into personal attacks as many do and thus the reason they get removed.

I will say this for reflection. As a boy scout and wilderness traveler, safety, preparedness and planning are important for your own sake, the sake of your group, and the sake of others who may have to rescue a group in adverse conditions. Taking a short cut or short cutting process and planning is a sure way to increase risk. We are all now in a boat that is already or very close to be directed down a side channel or short cut of which there is no plan, no map, but plenty of bravado. Godspeed friends.

Thanks for the updates, Pinetree.

This was just on the radio up here...the article was proven to be complete BS.

Star Trib - doing what the star trib is in the business of doing, selling stories.
Newspapers are businesses and they're run by people who have bias. They should be viewed as such...it's unfortunate, but it's the case.

That occurred to me also. Fewer enforcement employees

The employee at the front desk was filling in and he said he is from Tofte Ranger Station. Meaning there is no office staff or so few. Also person filling in said he could not comment on the situation-was told not to at this point. It was a shifting of office staff at this point and time I believe.
Other employees work there, but in what roll? Field staff ? so there is a change-how much--state tune later. I don't know, maybe someone does.

I do know-Typically, 27 people manage the recreation inside and outside the BWCAW in the eastern part of the forest. Late last year, there were only 10 because of budget cuts and a lack of applicants, the agency said last November.

LindenTree: ""Who Will Speak for the Trees" "

+1

THEGrandRapids: "For me at least, a lot of the headlines don't really "hit home". You see all these layoffs at the federal level, and I just don't personally know anyone that works for the federal government. When things like this happen though, it does feel different than just reading the headlines. I figured it was only a matter of time where it would "hit close to home" if you will.
. "

Besides the bw connection, and how all the cuts affect the resources as well as our trips, all this “hits home” for us, and both our children. My son has worked for the FS for several years as a wildland firefighter with permanent seasonal status. So far he is still employed (at least he hasn’t said anything yet). Considering people who’ve been there longer and have a lot of experience have been fired, I’m just waiting…

My daughter works in Virginia for a nonprofit which does a lot of work with the government (Head Start program, healthcare, small business stuff is some of what they do). Although they have contracts, money was approved by Congress, and the work was already completed, the money was cut off, so they in turn can’t pay for work done pre inauguration. The company has already laid off a good portion of their 4000 employees and will soon be bankrupt. My daughter is still employed only because she needs to close contracts etc. She will lose 25 days of vacation.

They both have mortgages, car payments, etc. One lives in a small rural town where there are few other jobs. The other lives near DC where there are thousands now out of work, all competing for the same jobs. I wonder how many people are losing their vacation pay, health insurance, no severance pay, homes…

This thread begins by noting the recent 10% reduction in the Forest Service work force.

Are you aware that Chevron just laid off 20% of its workforce? And Southwest Airlines just laid off 15% of its workforce?

The United States is $36 trillion in debt and paying $2 trillion in interest on its debt annually.

I’ll quickly agree that laying off 10% of the federal work force (230,000 employees) won’t do a whole lot to fix our financial problems, but it appears a reasonable and necessary step given the foregoing numbers — or at least it does to a fairly sizable number of the electorate.

My bet is that you’ll continue to see plenty of Chevron gas at the pump, plenty of Southwest flights to be booked, and plenty of canoe trips available to all of us in the BW.

No one likes the idea of people losing anything, least of all someone losing their job. But as we all know financial circumstances often require painful change.

4keys: "

LindenTree: ""Who Will Speak for the Trees" "

+1"

+2

Can we see the Forest through the trees. Wonder who phrased that?

If we're $36t in debt, why reduce taxes on the billionaires?

billconner: "If we're $36t in debt, why reduce taxes on the billionaires? "

New(ish) guy here. (Had a BWCA.com account many years ago) and not overly political, but I do think that's the big question. Why reduce Federal headcount and expenditures if you're just going to negate the savings with tax cuts that reduce operating revenue? The question is semi-rhetorical.

I have picked up permits at the Gunflint station before and I hate to see this, but as others have stated, not really a shocker.

I appreciate that the moderators are allowing us to talk about this regardless of which ‘side’ you are on.

Cory74: "

billconner: "If we're $36t in debt, why reduce taxes on the billionaires? "

New(ish) guy here (had a BWCA.com account many years ago) and not overly political, but I do think that's the big question. Why reduce Federal headcount and expenditures if you're just going to negate the savings with tax cuts that reduce operating revenue? The question is semi-rhetorical. I have picked up permits at the Gunflint station before and I hate to see this, but as others have stated, not really a shocker."

The theory is that reduced tax rates increase reinvestment, which primes the economy, which eventually increases overall revenue. But yeah, maybe now is not the time to cut taxes. On the other hand, Minnesota has been especially egregious in the other direction, taking advantage of single party rule by raising spending by over 30% in a single legislative session.

What I get really tired of is the populist claims that the rich don't pay their fair share. The top 10% of earners account for 76% of federal tax revenue, while the bottom 50% only account for 2%. You aren't going to fix anything by "taxing the rich". They can simply take their money elsewhere. And they do.

What we desperately need is a coherent plan to fix the deficit. And I don't believe either party is really all that capable of doing that because it will result in even more hardships that aren't politically tenable.

Kabooky theater. 952 billion in interest on the National debt for FW 2025. Neither political party is serious about balancing the federal budget as the last time that was done was 2021 under Clinton.

Money spent on staff for National parks or even Forest service personnel may well be some of our best spent money. The economic impact for communities surrounding our national treasures is significant. Understanding that would require an honest evaluation to determine if our money is spent efficiently. Maybe DOGE should figure that out..

The United States is at a precarious crossroad. We need real leadership to layout our fiscal situation to the public and work on creating buyin by the citizenry for a shared sacrifice to right the ship. The current process isn’t doing that. Some economists think we are at or near “debt death spiral”. We have precariously little freeboard left with our “National Canoe”

In these types of discussions, sometimes terms need to be clarified.

First: millionaires. This is a net worth term, not a cash in the bank term. My uncles were all farmers in Iowa. When they cashed out their lands, crops, herds, and equipment they had assets well over one million. Yet they had all their cash invested in their farms and lived very frugally. I would be willing to bet if those on this forum added up the value of their house, cars, investments, life insurance, pensions, etc they would surprised they are also in this group.

Evil corporations. Almost all small business (including mine) operate as sub chapter S corporations. We are not rich. However all corporations operate. . .by law. . .to benefit the partners or share holders. If you incease tax on them it will be passed on in sales prices, or compensated by letting go of employees and/or automating. Only through cutting their taxes can they afford to hire more and invest more.

Second: tax cuts are not "giving" money to anyone. A tax is a "taking". When you cut someones taxes, in fact what is happening is the government is simply not taking as much of that persons money. The money never was the governments. It became the governments by taking it from those that produced incomes. So tax cuts are not giving money to anyone. They are simply not taking money that was not the governments to start with.

The issues we are talking about on these forums have to do with cuts in discretionary funds. Those are paid for by income tax. Social security, medicare, and medicaid are paid for by payroll taxes. In our country half of the population pays no income tax. . .in other words, half of the country does not kick in to the pot that pays for the BWCA.

Our state, and many red states are moving away from income taxes, and will generate revenue by increased sales taxes and property taxes. I think Trump is on the right track by eliminating federal income taxes in favor of sales taxes.

The only solution I see to effectively manage the BWCA and other recreational areas is to be paid for by those that use them. . .through admissions and and usage fees. We love the BWCA. But many in the country do not even know what the BWCA is and if asked would have no problem cutting all the money funding the BWCA. This then gets back to those that use a service or resource being the ones that pay for its use.

And as to the "get it from the millionaires". . . there are plenty of articles out there that will show that if the government took 100% of all the money from that group it would be a drop in the bucket against what is needed.

Flat tax on all. Drop the income tax. Increased sales and usage taxes/fees.

"Public land for the public good."

The positives of public land stretch well beyond benefitting just those that use the land. Clean water, clean air, and healthy natural ecosystems cannot be seen as a commodity to be traded for economic benefit.

I am all for implementing and raising user fees as you get WAY more than you pay for. Plenty of examples of other public resources (police, fire departments, roads) are not paid by individual users as the benefit does not only go to the users of such services.

Everyone benefits from healthy public land, even if they don't realize it or can't adequately quantify it.

I'd much prefer they raise taxes on everyone rather than cut services and destroy the parks and forests.

Or listen to Warren Buffet:
"I could end the deficit in five minutes. You just pass a law that says that any time there’s a deficit of more than three percent of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election.”

billconner: "I'd much prefer they raise taxes on everyone rather than cut services and destroy the parks and forests.


Or listen to Warren Buffet:
"I could end the deficit in five minutes. You just pass a law that says that any time there’s a deficit of more than three percent of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election.”"

What was bad BIll, the Forest service this last couple of years they have down sized, but that was not taken into account at all. So they got down sized more yet. They were really short handed this last couple years. Maybe fire fighting expenses was part of that. I am not sure.
Right now no one knows how it will shake out. The entire Forestry budget is small potatoes compared to the rest of the budget. To save money you have to tackle the big items.
Have a good evening.

billconner: "I'd much prefer they raise taxes on everyone rather than cut services and destroy the parks and forests.


Or listen to Warren Buffet:
"I could end the deficit in five minutes. You just pass a law that says that any time there’s a deficit of more than three percent of GDP, all sitting members of Congress are ineligible for re-election.”"

Bingo! We have a winner.

And of course the real downsizing begins. If you think 10% was ok how will the next 30% or more affect you. It's started and USFS is coming.

As long as we are talking politics…

On the subject of cuts…I HATE lazy cuts such as what is being done now.

Cut 10% of staff…this is the laziest way to make cuts. My large company used to do this…these CEOs with overinflated egos and pocket books, make a decision a 10 year old could make then act they are smart. These generic 10% cuts often cut your best workers in essential positions and leave you with more leaders (who make the most money)…they get top heavy in the wrong way. It works in the short term…but long term is terrible for the company. Let’s face it our Government is essentially the largest corporation in the USA.

Thank goodness we terminated the last lazy CEO and started making targeted cuts. Smart companies don’t lay off the worker B’s, the ones with the boots on the ground, who do all the work…they target the managers/supervisors who are over budget and lead the company into the financial situation they are in. Fire a manager…you may be able to keep 3 other workers. You can get by without a manager for awhile. While the guy or gal cleaning toilets we need every day…

You should also change the title of this thread…it’s been proven inaccurate. But I agree I hate these cuts and the possible repercussions.

T

billconner: "I wonder if this will encourage people to just go and enter wherever they want? Seems even less enforcement possible."

I've been thinking about this. Let's be honest, the odds of getting caught were pretty slim already. Reduction of Rangers will have the BW all but unmonitored.

It would be interesting to see the fees and funds generated by BWCA activity. Like National Parks a certain percent supposed to be returned to that area. Those revenues should not be cut at all by law.
I know National Park fees revenues raised was at times 42% of there entire budget.
This I think was entry fees alone, not camping revenue made-not quite sure on that. I will have to do more research.
Also logging operations, how much revenue stays here? I know local government gets so much.

Please keep your comments mellow, were walking on egg shells, don't break them and keep it informative. It seems at times some comment harshly so forum will be closed. Thus, they get their wish while others lose.

Going skiing now, no one but the critters will be there. No critics.

ockycamper: "As a previous poster stated, the thesis/subject of this thread has proved to be bogus. Perhaps we need to wait a bit and let things settle out to get some accurate numbers before drawing many of the opinions offered on a false set of facts."

I changed the heading; I don't like unhappy campers.

Spokesmen for the dept of AG;
When asked again about how many were Superior National Forest employees fired, the spokesperson said, “I am afraid that this is all I have to share at this time. Please do check back soon and I may have more to share then.”

I was up to South Lake over the weekend and the impacts of the staff shortage are already becoming apparent. The kiosk at the end of Mayhew Rd. was jam packed full of filled out permits, and there were no blank ones available. Thus, we're already not getting an accurate count of BWCA permit use, and it calls into question their ability to enforce the permitting system at all. I saw at least 8 people come in the same way behind me, all with no ability to complete a day use or overnight permit card.

OgimaaBines: "I was up to South Lake over the weekend and the impacts of the staff shortage are already becoming apparent. The kiosk at the end of Mayhew Rd. was jam packed full of filled out permits, and there were no blank ones available. Thus, we're already not getting an accurate count of BWCA permit use, and it calls into question their ability to enforce the permitting system at all. I saw at least 8 people come in the same way behind me, all with no ability to complete a day use or overnight permit card."

I've run into this in years past as well...which is why I picked up a stack of them from the forest office to keep in my glove box.

Pinetree: "It would be interesting to see the fees and funds generated by BWCA activity. Like National Parks a certain percent supposed to be returned to that area. Those revenues should not be cut at all by law.
I know National Park fees revenues raised was at times 42% of there entire budget.
This I think was entry fees alone, not camping revenue made-not quite sure on that. I will have to do more research.
Also logging operations, how much revenue stays here? I know local government gets so much.

"

My wife and I are relatively new to the Boundary Waters, planning our third trip this July. We'd wanted to go for thirty years but had a business to run - a week incommunicado was unthinkable until we sold "our shop." Last year she got food poisoning from one of the local establishments so we had to pay a second entry fee to go in the next day. Fortunately, it was mid-September so there was an available permit. In comparison to the lodging, the outfitting, the travel up from Texas, even that meal that knocked her for a loop, the fee was inconsequential, even when asked to pay it twice. I'm curious how many folks use BWCA locally, and how many are like us, for whom any trip there is a major effort.

I see "up to 42% of budget covered by fees" and cringe, thinking to myself as a businessman, "raise the fees or cut the budget!" Then I see permits selling out in an hour in January and I KNOW as a businessman the answer is "raise the fees!" The current price point is well below where supply (relatively fixed) and demand (elastic) dictate. I'm not talking jet-set pricing (although some of the lodges and restaurants up there indicate otherwise!) but simply bringing prices up to a reasonable level where the place can make a go of it. If USFS could show the P&L (for BWCA if not all parks) as net positive, I bet none of these cuts would have happened, and frankly, would not have been needed because the inefficiencies would have been managed away already.

Now I understand that locals who access the BWCA frequently might complain more about fee increases than infrequent visitors like us, that it may mean a trip or two fewer per year for them. But honestly, that is what drives the elasticity of demand. We're coming up once a year as long as our bodies allow, even if the fees are $200 per night. But if we are going to save the place, IF ALL OF US ARE GOING TO SAVE THE PLACE, there needs to be acceptance and advocacy of reasonable fiscal actions. In my mind, raising the fees to meet rational costs is such an action.

Speckled: "

OgimaaBines: "I was up to South Lake over the weekend and the impacts of the staff shortage are already becoming apparent. The kiosk at the end of Mayhew Rd. was jam packed full of filled out permits, and there were no blank ones available. Thus, we're already not getting an accurate count of BWCA permit use, and it calls into question their ability to enforce the permitting system at all. I saw at least 8 people come in the same way behind me, all with no ability to complete a day use or overnight permit card."

I've run into this in years past as well...which is why I picked up a stack of them from the forest office to keep in my glove box."

For some reason like a 15 years ago, not sure why, but the entry points had no self permits, it was layoffs or staffs shortages back than.
Talking about a bridge over the Brule river that was suppose to be constructed may be on hold?
Time to tell we should just see what happens, the forestry employees don't even know now and I know from conversations Quetico rangers, they are wondering about their co-workers across the border. They care about them. I am glad there is kind of a bond and both sides help each other during fire season.
Take care everyone.

Speckled: "

OgimaaBines: "I was up to South Lake over the weekend and the impacts of the staff shortage are already becoming apparent. The kiosk at the end of Mayhew Rd. was jam packed full of filled out permits, and there were no blank ones available. Thus, we're already not getting an accurate count of BWCA permit use, and it calls into question their ability to enforce the permitting system at all. I saw at least 8 people come in the same way behind me, all with no ability to complete a day use or overnight permit card."

I've run into this in years past as well...which is why I picked up a stack of them from the forest office to keep in my glove box."

Same here, though in years past the FS has kept the more popular winter entry points more updated with blank permits.

GaryInTexas: "I see "up to 42% of budget covered by fees" and cringe, thinking to myself as a businessman, "raise the fees or cut the budget!" Then I see permits selling out in an hour in January and I KNOW as a businessman the answer is "raise the fees!" The current price point is well below where supply (relatively fixed) and demand (elastic) dictate. I'm not talking jet-set pricing (although some of the lodges and restaurants up there indicate otherwise!) but simply bringing prices up to a reasonable level where the place can make a go of it. If USFS could show the P&L (for BWCA if not all parks) as net positive, I bet none of these cuts would have happened, and frankly, would not have been needed because the inefficiencies would have been managed away already.

Now I understand that locals who access the BWCA frequently might complain more about fee increases than infrequent visitors like us, that it may mean a trip or two fewer per year for them. But honestly, that is what drives the elasticity of demand. We're coming up once a year as long as our bodies allow, even if the fees are $200 per night. But if we are going to save the place, IF ALL OF US ARE GOING TO SAVE THE PLACE, there needs to be acceptance and advocacy of reasonable fiscal actions. In my mind, raising the fees to meet rational costs is such an action."

I have had it to here with disingenuous recitations of economic “truths” from people who feel entitled to choose which subsidies for public goods to attack and which subsidies to studiously ignore as they champion the “free” market.

That airport you flew out of to come to Minnesota? Built, maintained and operated with federal tax dollars. Ditto for any highway you drove on to get here. Ditto for the teaching hospital that trained the medical staff that will care for you in the event of a mishap.

Perhaps you’d like to volunteer to pay their true cost without the subsidies? Nah, I didn’t think so.

gravelroad: "

GaryInTexas: "I see "up to 42% of budget covered by fees" and cringe, thinking to myself as a businessman, "raise the fees or cut the budget!" Then I see permits selling out in an hour in January and I KNOW as a businessman the answer is "raise the fees!" The current price point is well below where supply (relatively fixed) and demand (elastic) dictate. I'm not talking jet-set pricing (although some of the lodges and restaurants up there indicate otherwise!) but simply bringing prices up to a reasonable level where the place can make a go of it. If USFS could show the P&L (for BWCA if not all parks) as net positive, I bet none of these cuts would have happened, and frankly, would not have been needed because the inefficiencies would have been managed away already.


Now I understand that locals who access the BWCA frequently might complain more about fee increases than infrequent visitors like us, that it may mean a trip or two fewer per year for them. But honestly, that is what drives the elasticity of demand. We're coming up once a year as long as our bodies allow, even if the fees are $200 per night. But if we are going to save the place, IF ALL OF US ARE GOING TO SAVE THE PLACE, there needs to be acceptance and advocacy of reasonable fiscal actions. In my mind, raising the fees to meet rational costs is such an action."

I have had it to here with disingenuous recitations of economic “truths” from people who feel entitled to choose which subsidies for public goods to attack and which subsidies to studiously ignore as they champion the “free” market.


That airport you flew out of to come to Minnesota? Built, maintained and operated with federal tax dollars. Ditto for any highway you drove on to get here. Ditto for the teaching hospital that trained the medical staff that will care for you in the event of a mishap.


Perhaps you’d like to volunteer to pay their true cost without the subsidies? Nah, I didn’t think so."

And I didn't build my business. You forgot that screed.

Basic pricing theory is an economic truth, without quotes, whether you care to understand it or not. When Taylor Swift tickets or BWCA permits sell out in an hour, prices are too low. There is clearly a substantial loss in available revenue that would SOLVE the problems folks are discussing here, without significant hardship (sorry) as defined economically. If you want to fully bill for safety services, as an a priori surcharge or as charges are actually incurred by individuals, or any other direct costs associated with the BWCA, PLEASE DO!

If you want to throw around the economic value of roads, airports, hospitals, schools and the like (you forgot law enforcement and Defense, for example) list EVERY beneficiary then get back to me with a fair and economical accounting. You can't do it, which is why these expenditures land squarely in the public domain, paid for with gate fees, tolls, gas taxes and the like that are borne by the user, but I agree, only in part to the extent such fees are feasible to collect and politically acceptable.

BWCA on the other hand clearly benefits those who enter much more directly than those who don't. Someone else said here that North Minneapolis shouldn't pay for our transformative experiences. I couldn't agree more. Sorry. Muir and Thoreau don't win the argument in the public square. If you want to win over opponents (and I very much do) show them a viable economic alternative. Win on their court.

My point is this: it's already there to be had, just raise the fees appropriately. In the balance of our Kevlar canoes, titanium pots, graphite fishing rods
and $25 lures (you know who you are) would a little extra nightly fee really be that outrageous, if it means saving this place?

GaryInTexas: "

gravelroad: "

GaryInTexas: "I see "up to 42% of budget covered by fees" and cringe, thinking to myself as a businessman, "raise the fees or cut the budget!" Then I see permits selling out in an hour in January and I KNOW as a businessman the answer is "raise the fees!" The current price point is well below where supply (relatively fixed) and demand (elastic) dictate. I'm not talking jet-set pricing (although some of the lodges and restaurants up there indicate otherwise!) but simply bringing prices up to a reasonable level where the place can make a go of it. If USFS could show the P&L (for BWCA if not all parks) as net positive, I bet none of these cuts would have happened, and frankly, would not have been needed because the inefficiencies would have been managed away already.



Now I understand that locals who access the BWCA frequently might complain more about fee increases than infrequent visitors like us, that it may mean a trip or two fewer per year for them. But honestly, that is what drives the elasticity of demand. We're coming up once a year as long as our bodies allow, even if the fees are $200 per night. But if we are going to save the place, IF ALL OF US ARE GOING TO SAVE THE PLACE, there needs to be acceptance and advocacy of reasonable fiscal actions. In my mind, raising the fees to meet rational costs is such an action."

I have had it to here with disingenuous recitations of economic “truths” from people who feel entitled to choose which subsidies for public goods to attack and which subsidies to studiously ignore as they champion the “free” market.



That airport you flew out of to come to Minnesota? Built, maintained and operated with federal tax dollars. Ditto for any highway you drove on to get here. Ditto for the teaching hospital that trained the medical staff that will care for you in the event of a mishap.



Perhaps you’d like to volunteer to pay their true cost without the subsidies? Nah, I didn’t think so."

And I didn't build my business. You forgot that screed.


Basic pricing theory is an economic truth, without quotes, whether you care to understand it or not. When Taylor Swift tickets or BWCA permits sell out in an hour, prices are too low. There is clearly a substantial loss in available revenue that would SOLVE the problems folks are discussing here, without significant hardship (sorry) as defined economically. If you want to fully bill for safety services, as an a priori surcharge or as charges are actually incurred by individuals, or any other direct costs associated with the BWCA, PLEASE DO!


If you want to throw around the economic value of roads, airports, hospitals, schools and the like (you forgot law enforcement and Defense, for example) list EVERY beneficiary then get back to me with a fair and economical accounting. You can't do it, which is why these expenditures land squarely in the public domain, paid for with gate fees, tolls, gas taxes and the like that are borne by the user, but I agree, only in part to the extent such fees are feasible to collect and politically acceptable.


BWCA on the other hand clearly benefits those who enter much more directly than those who don't. Someone else said here that North Minneapolis shouldn't pay for our transformative experiences. I couldn't agree more. Sorry. Muir and Thoreau don't win the argument in the public square. If you want to win over opponents (and I very much do) show them a viable economic alternative. Win on their court.

My point is this: it's already there to be had, just raise the fees appropriately. In the balance of our Kevlar canoes, titanium pots, graphite fishing rods
and $25 lures (you know who you are) would a little extra nightly fee really be that outrageous, if it means saving this place?





"

+1 We are discussing a park the vast majority of Americans have not even heard of. I love the BWCA but rarely find anyone who has heard of it in the midwest. BWCA is not Yellowstone, or Great Smokey Mountain national park. Time for those of us that use the BWCA to start taking up the lion's share of paying for it. As the point above states: We come up with $3000 canoes and thousands of dollars of gear. . . but want an $18 entry permit and don't want to pay the $10 for the outfitter to dispense it. The solutions strikes me as obvious. Allow the outfitters to do all the permit sales and issueing, and education. They often know more then some of the FS rangers because the outfitters often have lived their their whole lives. Raise permit fees and charge an additional amount for the number of nights you will be staying. You are using multiple camp sites so the ones staying at 7 camp sites over two weeks would logically have more impact then those coming up for 3 nights and basecamping.

The market corrects itself. Private industry and outfitters will fill the gap for services that the FS cannot provide.

gravelroad: "

GaryInTexas: "I see "up to 42% of budget covered by fees" and cringe, thinking to myself as a businessman, "raise the fees or cut the budget!" Then I see permits selling out in an hour in January and I KNOW as a businessman the answer is "raise the fees!" The current price point is well below where supply (relatively fixed) and demand (elastic) dictate. I'm not talking jet-set pricing (although some of the lodges and restaurants up there indicate otherwise!) but simply bringing prices up to a reasonable level where the place can make a go of it. If USFS could show the P&L (for BWCA if not all parks) as net positive, I bet none of these cuts would have happened, and frankly, would not have been needed because the inefficiencies would have been managed away already.


Now I understand that locals who access the BWCA frequently might complain more about fee increases than infrequent visitors like us, that it may mean a trip or two fewer per year for them. But honestly, that is what drives the elasticity of demand. We're coming up once a year as long as our bodies allow, even if the fees are $200 per night. But if we are going to save the place, IF ALL OF US ARE GOING TO SAVE THE PLACE, there needs to be acceptance and advocacy of reasonable fiscal actions. In my mind, raising the fees to meet rational costs is such an action."

I have had it to here with disingenuous recitations of economic “truths” from people who feel entitled to choose which subsidies for public goods to attack and which subsidies to studiously ignore as they champion the “free” market.


That airport you flew out of to come to Minnesota? Built, maintained and operated with federal tax dollars. Ditto for any highway you drove on to get here. Ditto for the teaching hospital that trained the medical staff that will care for you in the event of a mishap.


Perhaps you’d like to volunteer to pay their true cost without the subsidies? Nah, I didn’t think so."

I was thinking about this and totally agree. Not everything is meant to be a money maker or even a break even situation. Roads, parks, schools, the military. They're services. People don't like this word but we have some socialism in this country. That's why we pay taxes

I think I read that if entry points don’t have day permits, you won’t be fined for not having one. I think several entry points are out of day or self entry permits and the FS is not sure if they can keep them stocked. Of course now that they are telling people that I expect people to start hoarding them like they do eggs now or TP during the pandemic :)

I’ll say again I do agree with Pinetree on the OP that I appreciate the service of the FS workers and I feel bad for anyone who lost or is losing their job. They were just cut, no legitimate reason given, to have a long term effect on government finances, cuts should have been done with a scalpel not an axe. It’s lazy, it’s only effective short term…it will create more issues down the road.

T

I think the majority of people on this website agree permit costs are too low. I’d be willing to pay more especially if it saved jobs and the BWCAW had more help.

There is room to compromise. Doesn’t need to be Quetico pricing, but the BWCAW permits are ridiculously low. People spend more on gas to get there…they spend more on one nite going out to eat before the trip or the day after, they spend more at McDonalds on the way up…they spend more on bait and lures. Heck our Scout troop spent more on maps than we did on the permit a few years ago :) It’s typically the cheapest part of the trip if you self outfit.

T

Nooooo.... As it is having all my own gear, I can have a great vacation for $200, maybe a tad more now with the current price of gas. Sure don't want it to be $200 a day. Now you're up to $1,000 + for a trip, won't like that.

I'm thinking not much will change. Sucks people are losing their jobs, a lot of that going around and I don't like that, especially when they are qualified and will be hard to replace. Sucks people need to be babysat & rules need to be enforced, but I don't think that will ever change either.

Not sure how just axing people to "save money" is gonna work. Most of those folks will likely depend on unemployment insurance, taxpayer-subsidized health insurance, and other social services.

One wonders how replacing skilled talent with inexperienced and possibly unskilled loyalists in the military and across the federal government can benefit the American People or keep the nation safe from internal and external threats.

I'm all for balancing the budget and paying off the debt. No tax cuts until that is done. I'm also a fan of higher user fees at both the state and federal level, as well as a complete re-evaluation of everyone receiving welfare and disability benefits. Here in rural America "disability" is probably the best way to avoid employment, as folks who initially needed the benefit continue to depend on it.

If ya want to save money, then ethanol and crop sudsidies should go out the window, and crop insurance should go to the private market. Same with FEMA payouts: why should anyone living in a floodplain get bailed out time and time again when that "500 year flood" happens every ten years? Why does the taxpayer have to replace shoddy construction?

I'm pretty sure that countless billions are spent trying to save people from their unhealthy eating and lifestyle habits.

Social programs are critically important, but waste and fraud should not be tolerated. Duplicated services should be scrutinized.

The Forest Service has long subsidized the forest products industry by selling timber at levels that do not support the costs of road construction/maintenance, forester salaries, reforestation, or invasive species control.

There is a lot that should be cut, but it should be some carefully and with surgical precision.

scat: "Nooooo.... As it is having all my own gear, I can have a great vacation for $200, maybe a tad more now with the current price of gas. Sure don't want it to be $200 a day. Now you're up to $1,000 + for a trip, won't like that.

I'm thinking not much will change. Sucks people are losing their jobs, a lot of that going around and I don't like that, especially when they are qualified and will be hard to replace. Sucks people need to be babysat & rules need to be enforced, but I don't think that will ever change either."

I said $200/night is what we would be willing to pay since our overall costs are much higher coming from Texas; I wasn't advocating that rate. I just looked at our receipt for our 2025 permit. $38 total for two people over five nights. That's $3.80 per person-night, and the dog stays for free. Come on! We will pay more than that for the extra dog fees in the bunkhouse before and after our trip. We gladly pay several times that rate for our car-camping in the state parks in Texas, lovely parks but not the jewel that is the BWCA. If the daily fee were $20 per person would that change your response from Nooooo ... to Hmmm ... ? How about $30? $15? That your response changes, that the amount (person-nights) you will consume changes because of price, is what makes up demand elasticity. But $3.80? That's just foolishly low. That's how businesses fail, and National Parks attract the chainsaw wielders, figuratively and literally.

scat: "Nooooo.... As it is having all my own gear, I can have a great vacation for $200, maybe a tad more now with the current price of gas. Sure don't want it to be $200 a day. Now you're up to $1,000 + for a trip, won't like that."

Quetico camping fees are C$13.25/day. A similar fees in BWCAW could bring in a lot of money for the wilderness with little financial impact on trippers. I wouldn't mind spending $140 more knowing that money goes to the upkeep of the wilderness.

The civilian Fed workforce is about 110 million and makes up 1.8% of the total budget in their wages. It a great bargain also you immediately get back around 25% in Fed taxes so a total expense off around 1.4% of the budget costs. Quite a bargain.
Wages is not the great expense people think it is.

Everyone sees we need cuts but you don't take a machete to the problem and end up cutting your head off.
Example: National Park service budget is 3.6 billion. Revenue by entrance fees is 1.2 billion. Total depth is 2.4 billion including infrastructure upkeep is in that number.t Department of the Interior’s National Park Service released a 2024 report that finds visitor spending in communities near national parks in 2023 resulted in a record high $55.6 billion benefit to the nation’s economy and supported 415,400 jobs. ?

The National Park Service report, 2023 National Park Visitor Spending Effects, finds that 325.5 million visitors spent $26.4 billion in communities near national parks.
When overall you have like the park service or Forestry dept.-they create more revenue for so little expenses.

Total wages for all Federal employees including the military is 5.5% of the total budget and around 360 billion.
To save money wages, is a small potato in the total picture.

Every state and natonal park that has camping has daily fees along with park entrance fees and parking fees. That would raise huge revenue for the BWCA.

A great friend of mine said his daughter(probably 50 years old now) received a email yesterday answer my email or be fired from Eon.
She is in the medical field working at a VA hospital. Taking time away from patients needs and her dedication being questioned really shook her up.
She devoted her life to help Vets and this has to happen to her.
Everyone likes to be appreciated an feel like they are worth something.
Did she answer the email? I don't know and maybe her job at helping a patient with life saving problems at hand was more important.

Sorry like others I got away from the BWCA concern.

I am very concerned about losing the VA services needed by my Dad. It breaks my heart to see him, a disabled veteran, look on as billionaire oligarchs are invited to the inauguration and allowed to end Lincoln's vision of a "government of the people, by the people, for the people." I look to history to try to predict the future. Can anyone point to a time in history when tax cuts led to prosperity for the working class, who are now farther behind than ever?
History shows that Democrats have been more willing to heed economic and historical lessons about what policies strengthen the economy. At the same time, Republicans have clung to theories that they want to believe — like the supposedly magical power of tax cuts and deregulation. Democrats have been more pragmatic. Since 1981, federal budget deficits have increased under Republican presidents Ronald Reagan, both Bushes, and Trump, while deficits declined under Democratic presidents Clinton and Obama. The economy ran surpluses during Clinton's last four fiscal years, the first surpluses since 1969.
For 13 presidents, beginning with Harry S Truman, total job creation was about 70.5 million for the 7 Democratic presidents and 29.1 million for the 6 Republican presidents. The Democratic presidents were in office for a total of 429 months, with 164,000 jobs per month added on average, while the Republicans were in office for 475 months, with a 61,000 jobs added per month on average.
Since 1945, the S&P 500 has averaged an annual gain of 11.2% during years when Democrats controlled the White House. 6.9% average gain under Republicans. Also, 10 of the last 11 recessions started under Republican presidents. Every Republican president since Benjamin Harrison, who served from 1889 to 1893, had a recession start in their first term in office.

KarlK: "I am very concerned about losing the VA services needed by my Dad. It breaks my heart to see him, a disabled veteran, look on as billionaire oligarchs are invited to the inauguration and allowed to end Lincoln's vision of a "government of the people, by the people, for the people." I look to history to try to predict the future. Can anyone point to a time in history when tax cuts led to prosperity for the working class, who are now farther behind than ever?
History shows that Democrats have been more willing to heed economic and historical lessons about what policies strengthen the economy. At the same time, Republicans have clung to theories that they want to believe — like the supposedly magical power of tax cuts and deregulation. Democrats have been more pragmatic. Since 1981, federal budget deficits have increased under Republican presidents Ronald Reagan, both Bushes, and Trump, while deficits declined under Democratic presidents Clinton and Obama. The economy ran surpluses during Clinton's last four fiscal years, the first surpluses since 1969.
For 13 presidents, beginning with Harry S Truman, total job creation was about 70.5 million for the 7 Democratic presidents and 29.1 million for the 6 Republican presidents. The Democratic presidents were in office for a total of 429 months, with 164,000 jobs per month added on average, while the Republicans were in office for 475 months, with a 61,000 jobs added per month on average.
Since 1945, the S&P 500 has averaged an annual gain of 11.2% during years when Democrats controlled the White House. 6.9% average gain under Republicans. Also, 10 of the last 11 recessions started under Republican presidents. Every Republican president since Benjamin Harrison, who served from 1889 to 1893, had a recession start in their first term in office. "

WOW. Like other threads, this one needs to be locked and/or deleted.

ockycamper: "

KarlK: "I am very concerned about losing the VA services needed by my Dad. It breaks my heart to see him, a disabled veteran, look on as billionaire oligarchs are invited to the inauguration and allowed to end Lincoln's vision of a "government of the people, by the people, for the people." I look to history to try to predict the future. Can anyone point to a time in history when tax cuts led to prosperity for the working class, who are now farther behind than ever?
History shows that Democrats have been more willing to heed economic and historical lessons about what policies strengthen the economy. At the same time, Republicans have clung to theories that they want to believe — like the supposedly magical power of tax cuts and deregulation. Democrats have been more pragmatic. Since 1981, federal budget deficits have increased under Republican presidents Ronald Reagan, both Bushes, and Trump, while deficits declined under Democratic presidents Clinton and Obama. The economy ran surpluses during Clinton's last four fiscal years, the first surpluses since 1969.
For 13 presidents, beginning with Harry S Truman, total job creation was about 70.5 million for the 7 Democratic presidents and 29.1 million for the 6 Republican presidents. The Democratic presidents were in office for a total of 429 months, with 164,000 jobs per month added on average, while the Republicans were in office for 475 months, with a 61,000 jobs added per month on average.
Since 1945, the S&P 500 has averaged an annual gain of 11.2% during years when Democrats controlled the White House. 6.9% average gain under Republicans. Also, 10 of the last 11 recessions started under Republican presidents. Every Republican president since Benjamin Harrison, who served from 1889 to 1893, had a recession start in their first term in office. "

WOW. Like other threads, this one needs to be locked and/or deleted. "

We should maybe get back to the main topic, but I have said before, certain people like to delete a thread because it is different than what they want, so they do their best to stop it thus they succeed, thus they accomplished there agenda. To stop others opinion.

I welcome the moderator to delete individual posts, maybe posts that are trying to sabotage many forums or gone to far.
Most forums do wonder and that is not all bad, it widens one respective.

Sometimes you care so much about protecting the natural resources matters to me.
Maybe others can live without wild things I can't.

I shared these facts to demonstrate my doubts related to the current administration's claims of fiscal responsibility and the need to fire thousands of empoyees. If I am wrong and there are examples of modern Republican leadership resulting in reduced debt or increased prosperity for average Americans, please educate me.
Pinetree, this is how my information relates to BWCA management. On Feb 3, trump said that he intends to create a sovereign wealth fund. When asked how he would fund such a thing given our massive debt, U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said “We are going to monetize the asset side of the U.S. balance sheet for the American people. We are going to put the assets to work.” Doug Burgum, President Trump’s secretary of the interior, has said that the nation’s parks, public lands, and natural resources—including timber, fossil fuels, and minerals—are assets on “the nation’s balance sheet.” Burgum speculated in his confirmation hearing that federal lands could be worth as much as $200 trillion. He argued that the U.S. government, run like a business, should know the value of the corporation’s assets and use those assets “to get a return for the American people.” Under trump’s proposal, the value of public lands would be determined by their potential market value to grow a sovereign wealth fund, and not by their value to paddlers, family ranchers; or communities that rely on clean water and air as well as jobs and income that come from natural resource development, recreation, and tourism.
Consider these facts as you ponder who was fired, and what they were up to.

Just got a email from the USFS Superior Supervisor, for now they will be trying to keep all offices open. All stations.

Pinetree: "

ockycamper: "


WOW. Like other threads, this one needs to be locked and/or deleted. "

We should maybe get back to the main topic, but I have said before, certain people like to delete a thread because it is different than what they want, so they do their best to stop it thus they succeed, thus they accomplished there agenda. To stop others opinion.


I welcome the moderator to delete individual posts, maybe posts that are trying to sabotage many forums or gone to far.
Most forums do wonder and that is not all bad, it widens one respective."

Agreed

I feel the moderators have shown they are willing to allow respectful conversation that veers into political subjects. Call me crazy but I feel the threads aren’t being locked for being political, but rather for the lack of maturity and respect shown by a very small few when political comments they don’t agree with are shared. My personal preference would be to keep the threads open and remove the posts that get out of hand and resort to personal attacks. I see nothing in this thread that meets that threshold but maybe the mods feel differently.

I appreciate reading perspectives from both sides on a forum where I know I have at least SOMETHING in common even if our politics differ. It helps remind me that people have all sorts of different reasons for holding the beliefs they do, and challenges me to think critically instead of dismissing the other side as flat out wrong.

Personally I feel what’s being done to our country’s public service is a travesty and I have deep concern for the future of our wildlife, wild spaces and public lands. I’m still waiting for someone to present a level-headed argument that gutting the forest service and NPS is going to improve our country.

thegildedgopher: "I feel the moderators have shown they are willing to allow respectful conversation that veers into political subjects. Call me crazy but I feel the threads aren’t being locked for being political, but rather for the lack of maturity and respect shown by a very small few when political comments they don’t agree with are shared. My personal preference would be to keep the threads open and remove the posts that get out of hand and resort to personal attacks. I see nothing in this thread that meets that threshold but maybe the mods feel differently.


I appreciate reading perspectives from both sides on a forum where I know I have at least SOMETHING in common even if our politics differ. It helps remind me that people have all sorts of different reasons for holding the beliefs they do, and challenges me to think critically instead of dismissing the other side as flat out wrong.


Personally I feel what’s being done to our country’s public service is a travesty and I have deep concern for the future of our wildlife spaces and public lands. I’m still waiting for someone to present a level-headed argument that gutting the forest service and NPS is going to improve our country."

The other thread on this topic was locked for less than what is here. Others were deleted completely. I don't really care, so long as it's consistent so it doesn't appear that some political views get more leeway than others.

Not always a believer in this but I now couldn't agree more that fees need to be raised. To me it is the best way to secure the future of the BWCA if that is the goal. There are far too many non essential government programs that are a drag on tax payers. So glad we now have people who are willing to take a serious look at reducing wasteful spending. I would much rather pay an increased fee including in the self permit season than rely on tax payers to fund the BWCA.

Personally, I haven't used a forest station because outfitters have been more convenient in location and hours. Maybe that's just because of where I've chosen to go. But yeah, I would question the need for as many as they have, at least as far as public interaction goes.

plmn: "Personally, I haven't used a forest station because outfitters have been more convenient in location and hours. Maybe that's just because of where I've chosen to go. But yeah, I would question the need for as many as they have, at least as far as public interaction goes. "

I love the outfitters and have often found it more convenient to pickup there as well—- but several never said a word to me about LNT or provided any education. I didn’t need it , but for first timers the experience at the Gunflint ranger station is very valuable. That’s my personal experience.Outfitters have a lot going on. They’re arranging tows and organizing scout groups and printing permits and booking lodging and renting canoes and gear and selling t-shirts and the list goes on. The rangers are dedicated to providing access but also education and conservation. They are worth far more than they are being paid.

plmn: "

thegildedgopher: "I feel the moderators have shown they are willing to allow respectful conversation that veers into political subjects. Call me crazy but I feel the threads aren’t being locked for being political, but rather for the lack of maturity and respect shown by a very small few when political comments they don’t agree with are shared. My personal preference would be to keep the threads open and remove the posts that get out of hand and resort to personal attacks. I see nothing in this thread that meets that threshold but maybe the mods feel differently.



I appreciate reading perspectives from both sides on a forum where I know I have at least SOMETHING in common even if our politics differ. It helps remind me that people have all sorts of different reasons for holding the beliefs they do, and challenges me to think critically instead of dismissing the other side as flat out wrong.



Personally I feel what’s being done to our country’s public service is a travesty and I have deep concern for the future of our wildlife spaces and public lands. I’m still waiting for someone to present a level-headed argument that gutting the forest service and NPS is going to improve our country."

The other thread on this topic was locked for less than what is here. Others were deleted completely. I don't really care, so long as it's consistent so it doesn't appear that some political views get more leeway than others."

What is apparent is blatant attacks on republicans and the current administration are allowed to stay while conservative posts are being deleted. These forums were never for politics. Since that bridge has been crossed, and the mods are aligning with those on the left, I wish those I have come to know well. I am done.

Dude - Karl - WTH? Not cool.

An education on economics is usually best done over a beer or two. I'd be happy to buy you one and educate you if the opportunity ever presented itself.

Back to topic - Grand Marais Branch is open!!!! Grand Marais Branch still has employees!!! Star Trib should have verified their story with at least a phone call to the Grand Marais Office.

thegildedgopher: "

plmn: "Personally, I haven't used a forest station because outfitters have been more convenient in location and hours. Maybe that's just because of where I've chosen to go. But yeah, I would question the need for as many as they have, at least as far as public interaction goes. "

I love the outfitters and have often found it more convenient to pickup there as well—- but several never said a word to me about LNT or provided any education. I didn’t need it , but for first timers the experience at the Gunflint ranger station is very valuable. That’s my personal experience.Outfitters have a lot going on. They’re arranging tows and organizing scout groups and printing permits and booking lodging and renting canoes and gear and selling t-shirts and the list goes on. The rangers are dedicated to providing access but also education and conservation. They are worth far more than they are being paid."

The need for in person LNT training was greatly reduced when they started making videos. I have used two outfitters the past two years. One didn't ask me anything. The other gave me a little quiz. Seems there are simple things they could do, if needed.

One thing nobody has talked about is how busy these stations are. How many people do they typically service in a day versus how many people are entering in their area? That would go a long ways in determining their worth.

ockycamper: "

plmn: "

thegildedgopher: "I feel the moderators have shown they are willing to allow respectful conversation that veers into political subjects. Call me crazy but I feel the threads aren’t being locked for being political, but rather for the lack of maturity and respect shown by a very small few when political comments they don’t agree with are shared. My personal preference would be to keep the threads open and remove the posts that get out of hand and resort to personal attacks. I see nothing in this thread that meets that threshold but maybe the mods feel differently.



I appreciate reading perspectives from both sides on a forum where I know I have at least SOMETHING in common even if our politics differ. It helps remind me that people have all sorts of different reasons for holding the beliefs they do, and challenges me to think critically instead of dismissing the other side as flat out wrong.



Personally I feel what’s being done to our country’s public service is a travesty and I have deep concern for the future of our wildlife spaces and public lands. I’m still waiting for someone to present a level-headed argument that gutting the forest service and NPS is going to improve our country."

The other thread on this topic was locked for less than what is here. Others were deleted completely. I don't really care, so long as it's consistent so it doesn't appear that some political views get more leeway than others."

What is apparent is blatant attacks on republicans and the current administration are allowed to stay while conservative posts are being deleted. These forums were never for politics. Since that bridge has been crossed, and the mods are aligning with those on the left, I wish those I have come to know well. I am done."

Good

Wow. One poster with a good track record quits, another is glad to see it, and another patronizingly claims it's just a matter of "educating".

I changed my mind. I do care. Please put an end to this.

Someday: "

ockycamper: "

plmn:
What is apparent is blatant attacks on republicans and the current administration are allowed to stay while conservative posts are being deleted. These forums were never for politics. Since that bridge has been crossed, and the mods are aligning with those on the left, I wish those I have come to know well. I am done."

Good"

Agreed plmn . . . . my reply to a comment on this subject was deleted too.

I'm sure Mr. Someday will be happy to see me go too. He made a personal attack on me a few weeks ago in response to my comment on the subject of the 80% drop in bear encounters .

plmn: "Personally, I haven't used a forest station because outfitters have been more convenient in location and hours. Maybe that's just because of where I've chosen to go. But yeah, I would question the need for as many as they have, at least as far as public interaction goes. "

It should be clear that issuing permits is a tiny fraction of what goes on at forest service stations.

I approve of this thread. I have learned a lot of different perspectives on this topic. Very informative. Keep it going.

It should be a option where you pick up your permit as long as you get a little talk on protocol in the woods.
Even a old geezer like me and especially with kids it is something special to walk into the USFS office and be greeted nicely. Its kind of a ritual for a beginning of a trip and kids and even me seemed impressed by being in the forestry building. It leaves you with a good feeling. I am back for another year.
Now we can hit the water after a little chit chat , bugs or other related info.

Many outfitters are the same, some much better than others, but that is normal. We all have are favorite.
I wonder if any one keeps their old permits in a collection?
I have Quetico and BWCA litter bags like new. Love the Quetico one.
Use to after being there so many times in a year, they would give me a card they joked as "the get out of jail card free". Meaning I didn't have to watch the film again.

Just got off the ice and crappie's were really biting around home.

LesliesDad: "

Someday: "

ockycamper: "

plmn:
What is apparent is blatant attacks on republicans and the current administration are allowed to stay while conservative posts are being deleted. These forums were never for politics. Since that bridge has been crossed, and the mods are aligning with those on the left, I wish those I have come to know well. I am done."

Good"

Agreed plmn . . . . my reply to a comment on this subject was deleted too.


I'm sure Mr. Someday will be happy to see me go too. He made a personal attack on me a few weeks ago in response to my comment on the subject of the 80% drop in bear encounters .

"

Details matter. I did not make any personal attack against you. Someday does not equal Sunburn. And I believe Sunburn apologized. Wow.

ockycamper: "

plmn: "

thegildedgopher: "I feel the moderators have shown they are willing to allow respectful conversation that veers into political subjects. Call me crazy but I feel the threads aren’t being locked for being political, but rather for the lack of maturity and respect shown by a very small few when political comments they don’t agree with are shared. My personal preference would be to keep the threads open and remove the posts that get out of hand and resort to personal attacks. I see nothing in this thread that meets that threshold but maybe the mods feel differently.



I appreciate reading perspectives from both sides on a forum where I know I have at least SOMETHING in common even if our politics differ. It helps remind me that people have all sorts of different reasons for holding the beliefs they do, and challenges me to think critically instead of dismissing the other side as flat out wrong.



Personally I feel what’s being done to our country’s public service is a travesty and I have deep concern for the future of our wildlife spaces and public lands. I’m still waiting for someone to present a level-headed argument that gutting the forest service and NPS is going to improve our country."

The other thread on this topic was locked for less than what is here. Others were deleted completely. I don't really care, so long as it's consistent so it doesn't appear that some political views get more leeway than others."

What is apparent is blatant attacks on republicans and the current administration are allowed to stay while conservative posts are being deleted. These forums were never for politics. Since that bridge has been crossed, and the mods are aligning with those on the left, I wish those I have come to know well. I am done."

As someone who is left of center, I feel the exact opposite, and my carefully worded posts have been deleted. I'm amazed that more of yours weren't. From my view moderators are far right.

Tisk, Tisk. Whatever happened to Missmolly and Mastertangler to straighten us all out :-)

LindenTree: "Tisk, Tisk. Whatever happened to Missmolly and Mastertangler to straighten us all out :-)"

Best post of this thread LOL

What is apparent is blatant attacks on republicans and the current administration are allowed to stay while conservative posts are being deleted. These forums were never for politics. Since that bridge has been crossed, and the mods are aligning with those on the left, I wish those I have come to know well. I am done."

With all due respect, it is Republicans that are taking a chainsaw to federal natural resource agencies, cruelly and possibly illegally. If Democrats were trying to do the same thing, I'd like to think we would be flaming them in the same way. I know I would.

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"

If my post was patronizing...meant to be Tongue in cheek. Tone is missing from posts. My apologies.

I hope everything works out and I certianly hope Okaycamper sticks around. Politics suck.

What if we could fully staff all the forest service stations and the rules video was narrated by Kid Rock? That would satisfy the left and the right.

Details matter. I did not make any personal attack against you. Someday does not equal Sunburn. And I believe Sunburn apologized. Wow.
"

Dear Mr. Sunday:
I stand corrected. I confused you with Mr. Sunburn. I apologize for my mistake. I should have checked the comments and not gone by memory.
LesliesDad

LesliesDad: "
Details matter. I did not make any personal attack against you. Someday does not equal Sunburn. And I believe Sunburn apologized. Wow.


Dear Mr. Sunday:
I stand corrected. I confused you with Mr. Sunburn. I apologize for my mistake. I should have checked the comments and not gone by memory.
LesliesDad"

Apology accepted.

MS. Someday

First, none of this will get solved without bipartisanship - accountability does not have a political affiliation.

Two, why would anyone pick up their permit at a ranger station when you can simply do the same thing at an outfitter while supporting our economy and someone’s livelihood at the same time?

Three, I hope this thread is allowed to continue so long as people can express their point of view in a friendly manner.

ockycamper: "

plmn: "

thegildedgopher: "I feel the moderators have shown they are willing to allow respectful conversation that veers into political subjects. Call me crazy but I feel the threads aren’t being locked for being political, but rather for the lack of maturity and respect shown by a very small few when political comments they don’t agree with are shared. My personal preference would be to keep the threads open and remove the posts that get out of hand and resort to personal attacks. I see nothing in this thread that meets that threshold but maybe the mods feel differently.



I appreciate reading perspectives from both sides on a forum where I know I have at least SOMETHING in common even if our politics differ. It helps remind me that people have all sorts of different reasons for holding the beliefs they do, and challenges me to think critically instead of dismissing the other side as flat out wrong.



Personally I feel what’s being done to our country’s public service is a travesty and I have deep concern for the future of our wildlife spaces and public lands. I’m still waiting for someone to present a level-headed argument that gutting the forest service and NPS is going to improve our country."

The other thread on this topic was locked for less than what is here. Others were deleted completely. I don't really care, so long as it's consistent so it doesn't appear that some political views get more leeway than others."

What is apparent is blatant attacks on republicans and the current administration are allowed to stay while conservative posts are being deleted. These forums were never for politics. Since that bridge has been crossed, and the mods are aligning with those on the left, I wish those I have come to know well. I am done."

I'm very left and one of my post was deleted.

I have picked up permits at both the FS and the Outfitter.

To answer the question Willow76…I think both can do a great job. BUT the FS always does a great job of going over the rules, education, and watching the required video.

Many outfitters do not educate you, many do not make you watch the required video. It’s hit or miss. Shout out to Voyaguer North who did a great job with our scout troop in 2023.

If you want to do a PMA (Primitive Management area) as I am want to do…that can ONLY be done at a FS station. Once again there are special regs they need to go over in addition to the BWCAW regs. And you need a special notation on your permit to be able to camp in a PMA.

The negative of a FS is the hours. An outfitter can get you a permit later in the day, or before the FS opens.

A negative of Outfitters is sometimes they are super busy and IF you are only getting a permit it can disrupt their business. I’d feel guilty…I am usually renting something, but if I am not I tend to use the FS.

T

Please think about the fact that people on the left and people on the right think the moderators are biased…most likely means the Moderators are not biased :)

That’s perfect for Moderation, means they are doing their job because, like it or not, we are all going to look at it in our own biased way.

Also keep in mind, just because your post disappeared doesn’t mean you were moderated. Often whole thread group is deleted—so it might be one post moderated but anything corresponding is removed as well. Sometimes even posters ask their post to be removed and then any corresponding posts will be removed with it. Once again doesn’t mean you were moderated, means the person you responded to didn’t like direction it took and essentially moderated themselves for Harmony’s sake. Your response will get removed too, especially if you did a quote.

So to quote an oldy but a goody movie, “lighten up Francis”

Speaking to myself as well :)

T

PaddlinMadeline: "What if we could fully staff all the forest service stations and the rules video was narrated by Kid Rock? That would satisfy the left and the right."

Ha! I think the right would be ok with that but they left would want a second version of the video narrated by Dylan Mulvaney.

I read a daily blog sponsored by a trio of lawyers, two of which reside in “the cities” and, consequently, have a painful understanding of MN politics. The statements in this discussion are, unfortunately, expected. Red/Blue, haves/have nots … my take away from all the signaling is that we’ll not be too nervous about food containers this coming trip. Y’all have a golden day.

I think something along this line was already mentioned, but how many of you are willing to pay a higher permit price to cover the cost of bringing the staffing back to a full level? Does anybody know what that price would even be? I doubt it. That cost should be determined before advocating for re-hiring.

Every private sector job is routinely evaluated to ensure it brings positive value to the organization. It is far past time for public sector jobs to face the same scrutiny. The fact that so many people are offended by being asked to report what they actually did during the week is a huge red flag. Most of us in the corporate world have been doing that for decades.

I don't necessarily agree with the rather flippant way this is being done, but it should be very obvious that something did need to be done. Hundreds of billions in inappropriate spending have already been found in only a month and the only argument opponents seem to be able to muster is "that's just a fraction of the budget so it doesn't really matter".

timatkn: "Please think about the fact that people on the left and people on the right think the moderators are biased…most likely means the Moderators are not biased :)


That’s perfect for Moderation, means they are doing their job because, like it or not, we are all going to look at it in our own biased way.


Also keep in mind, just because your post disappeared doesn’t mean you were moderated. Often whole thread group is deleted—so it might be one post moderated but anything corresponding is removed as well. Sometimes even posters ask their post to be removed and then any corresponding posts will be removed with it. Once again doesn’t mean you were moderated, means the person you responded to didn’t like direction it took and essentially moderated themselves for Harmony’s sake. Your response will get removed too, especially if you did a quote.


So to quote an oldy but a goody movie, “lighten up Francis”


Speaking to myself as well :)


T"

agree well said
Need a USFS bomber plane with retardant to cool things down. Most believe in prescribed burns, but not under controlled certain conditions. I hope this thread stays open and maybe the flames and excess fuel has burned off.
Sometimes prescribed burns get out of control, but that doesn't mean you don't try again.
Keep this thread going, maybe sit back by the campfire and wait for new info.

campfire size only allowed within the ring
Mn Caddy lake

Speckled: "Dude - Karl - WTH? Not cool.

An education on economics is usually best done over a beer or two. I'd be happy to buy you one and educate you if the opportunity ever presented itself.

Back to topic - Grand Marais Branch is open!!!! Grand Marais Branch still has employees!!! Star Trib should have verified their story with at least a phone call to the Grand Marais Office.
"
I don't drink, and I am not interested in theories. What I asked for was facts. I asked for an example of increased prosperity and fiscal health in this country under Republican leadership.

The forest through the trees.

I was a lobbyist (I told my kids I was in insurance). I worked for 25 years in DC and the Wisconsin Capitol on behalf of a non-partisan industry that was neither party’s sweetheart nor enemy. I saw an enormous change from the inside. When I started, both parties were closer to the middle working with each other to compromise on our behalf (governing). When I left, both sides were “primarying” out their own good people to purify the flock and drive it further left and right (pure tribal partisanship). We used to take our local leggies and staff to coffee together. Today, they won’t go. They know their leadership would punish them for speaking with the other side without permission.

The real issue, in my humble opinion and truly with no axe to grind, is that unlimited money and party tribalism is killing democracy. The national and state pendulum swings now much farther left and right and neither results in government of, for and by the people. Tip O’Neill and Ronald Reagan worked together and became friends for a reason. Their goal ultimately was to serve us, not the interests that pour in millions to buy them, or the party leaders using the millions in the name of political purity, not governing.

How could things improve? It’s an enormous lift but we need to change who we elect and why. I will vote for anyone, any label, who is truthful, transparent, a uniter not divider and who seeks to represent everyone, not just their own voters. Having such people run and elected would require campaign finance reform like John MCain and Russ Feingold joined together to fight for even though they were politically far apart. Whether you are happy with today’s White House or not, the guy running things with the President spent $175 million to be there. My state’s average net worth is $186K. His is $244B. Him spending $175 million is the equivalent of an average Wisconsinite spending $111. Does he have one vote like you or me?

It would also require some restoration of independent “real” news and less reliance on social media. I am brainwashed and you are too. We are not coming to terms with the extent to which algorithms drive us to tribal partisanship and away from democracy (and convince us our side is democracy and freedom and the other is our enemy).

Democracy has never been pretty, it’s a human endeavor after all. It has worked and can work but it ain’t working now and wouldn’t if the other side ran things. These people are not your friends. Sorry, but they actually don’t care about us or, at minimum, can’t afford to care if they decide to stay in office. As long as we see everything as black and white – tax-no tax, cut-don’t cut public workers, copper or clean wilderness water – we are screwed and are heading toward being irretrievably screwed. I know it’s hard or impossible to see but why wouldn’t voters on both sides demand the 4 Dem and 4 Rep Minnesota members of Congress work together to protect the BWCA while ensuring we have copper and economic growth? That’s not possible today, but it is possible, and it is what I believe we all actually want and could, should, demand. This template works for every cause. Politics only works for itself.

plmn: "I think something along this line was already mentioned, but how many of you are willing to pay a higher permit price to cover the cost of bringing the staffing back to a full level? Does anybody know what that price would even be? I doubt it. That cost should be determined before advocating for re-hiring.


Every private sector job is routinely evaluated to ensure it brings positive value to the organization. It is far past time for public sector jobs to face the same scrutiny. The fact that so many people are offended by being asked to report what they actually did during the week is a huge red flag. Most of us in the corporate world have been doing that for decades.


I don't necessarily agree with the rather flippant way this is being done, but it should be very obvious that something did need to be done. Hundreds of billions in inappropriate spending have already been found in only a month and the only argument opponents seem to be able to muster is "that's just a fraction of the budget so it doesn't really matter". "

I completely agree with this. Being in middle management I have to not only explain what I am doing every week I have to explain what my direct reports are doing as well. If I was offended by that my superiors would tell me to take a hike.
I would be curious to know what the breakeven point for fees would be.

KawnipiKid-good write
Both parties once after work in congress would go out together and have a few beers, more compromises and ideas were accomplished over a beer once.

Hope it was Hamms or a Grain Belt.

Hair on fire. Give it a year and I think both sides won’t see much difference in how the BWCA operates.

timatkn: "

LindenTree: "Tisk, Tisk. Whatever happened to Missmolly and Mastertangler to straighten us all out :-)"

Best post of this thread LOL"

Yes, Perfection!

Chieflonewatie: "Hair on fire. Give it a year and I think both sides won’t see much difference in how the BWCA operates."

But who will own it and what will it be called?

billconner: "

Chieflonewatie: "Hair on fire. Give it a year and I think both sides won’t see much difference in how the BWCA operates."

But who will own it and what will it be called?"

It will be public land and be called the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness.

Watching the left since January has been almost an exact mirror of watching the right after the 2020 election. Flagrant histrionics, fueled by fear, a sense of loss, and echo chambers. Same claims of grand conspiracies and erosion of freedom. Same everything. The only thing that changes between the two is the pet issue of the time.

I agree with Chief. I’ve been on 25 or so trips, mostly loops and I think I’ve only talked to rangers 4x. Not expecting to see one around Homer Lake this May either. I’m not sure how my trip will be affected it at all.

There were always be jerks who don’t follow the rules cuz they’re jerks, I’m sure they rarely get caught and prob won’t this year. I don’t think I saw a mention if cuts are affecting the ranger staff, I hope not, well I hate to see anyone lose their gig.

Tryin: "

billconner: "

Chieflonewatie: "Hair on fire. Give it a year and I think both sides won’t see much difference in how the BWCA operates."

But who will own it and what will it be called?"

It will be public land and be called the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness.


Watching the left since January has been almost an exact mirror of watching the right after the 2020 election. Flagrant histrionics, fueled by fear, a sense of loss, and echo chambers. Same claims of grand conspiracies and erosion of freedom. Same everything. The only thing that changes between the two is the pet issue of the time."

I pray you're correct, but not at all confident.

I like your angle Tryin - I’m with you I’m skeptical of anything to do with politics & politicians I don’t care who it is. I am decidedly apolitical. I’m sitting having a cup of tea watching my fish tank with the tv on in the background. Fox says T has an 8 pt favorable rating and then click over to sad faced MSNBC and they are saying he has the worst rating of a modern prez, ok…. I smell a conspiracy haha. And people from both sides blindly believe whatever they say. Pure propaganda. I had an ex gf who was a hard core dem, complete idiot btw, and she would simply not believe there was the Great Recession in 2008, something all of us in construction will never forget, that lasted thru BO entire 2 terms for us guys. Even tho I googled it and showed her 5 news stories including MSNBC that explained what happened and called it the Great Recession, would not believe it happened. I think she had the hots for BO. Like lemmings blindly heading for the cliff. I look at it as entertainment, Biden was great for that gonna miss that dude. It doesn’t make sense to me to get all bent out of shape every day cuz you only vote once every 4 years and can’t do a damn thing about what happens, just take it.

Cheers, scat

Pinetree: "Supervisor also quit and couldn't bare what happen to his fellow workers and friends.
The future of permit handling and resource management will be interesting.

Thanks for your service-we appreciated it "

Interesting?

You can say what you really mean: "awful".