BWCA 2010 - Leadership Challenge #4 (The Call) Boundary Waters Group Forum: Wilderness Challenges
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      2010 - Leadership Challenge #4 (The Call)     



distinguished member(3141)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 08:14AM  
This is #4 of 12 Leadership Challenges I will be posting. The purpose of these is to get feedback on what you would do under these circumstances. I'm not looking for a "Right Answer" I'm looking to see how the many very knowledgeable people here on would react in a time of decision in Canoe Country.

Challenge #4: (“The Call”)

Situation: You are traveling in a party of 4 (Combined crew weight of 800 lbs) in two rental Old Town Penobscot 17 foot Royalex Canoes (max load weight of 1100-1150 Lbs). You are carrying 4 large packs, 4 smaller personal packs and misc. fishing gear with a total gear weight of approximately 350 lbs split evenly between the two canoes.

Additional Situation Information:

•This is Day 2 of a planned 10 Day Trip to Quetico Provincial Park.

•This Trip has been in the planning stage for over 2 years.

•The Crew:

o Curly: Average Outdoorsman/Canoeist. Trips: 3.

o Mo: Average Outdoorsman/Canoeist. Trips 3. (Curly’s Brother)

o Larry: Expert Outdoorsman/Canoeist. Trips 40+ many of which were solo. (Curly’s Best Friend)

o Harry: Rookie Outdoorsman/Canoeist. Trips: First Timer (Drove the crew up in his brand new Range Rover and is Curly's Boss)

• The Crew all lives in Sioux Falls, SD. A 500 mile, 8 hour Drive from Ely

• The nearest commercial airport is in Duluth, MN. A 115 Mile 2 Hour Drive From Ely. Delta has several flights a day through MSP International to Sioux Falls, SD

• Your Outfitter is: Bojibob’s Boats and Beer, Located on Moose Lake. Boji stocks 4 Man, 3 Man, Tandem and Solo Canoes, Kayaks and over 100 Domestic and Imported Beers, Many in plastic bottles. Boji offers shuttles to Duluth airport

** The crew has each invested over $700 in fees, gear, gas/food/beer etc.

Your current location: You are currently located on Keefer Lake, 2 days travel north from Prairie Portage. Your crew has slogged through some tough portages to get here; including the infamous Yum Yum Portage.

Additional Information: The current time is 4:00 PM. The Date is August 21, 2010. Sunset is at 8:11 PM, Twilight lasts until 8:45 PM. Weather is good, clear skies with slight breeze with gusts 5-10 MPH from the NW.

Items of interest in your gear pack:

You have a SAT Phone.

The Challenge: While setting up camp. You have turned on the SAT phone to check reception and for messages. There is a Text message. The message is from Curly’s wife. “Call Home Immediately – Family Emergency”.

Curly calls home to find out that his Wife’s Mother and Father have been tragically killed in a Car Accident. The Funeral is on August 25, 2010 at 10:00 AM in Sioux Falls, SD and Curly’s wife, wants and needs Curley to come home ASAP. This is “THE CALL” that we all hope to never get.

Additional conversation develops between the crew. Curly insists that he wants the crew to continue the trip, but yet he still needs to get back to Sioux Falls, SD. by 10:00 AM of August 25th.

Now What?

On this challenge, no options are given.

Place yourself in the shoes of the Characters and try to think like they would based on their relationship with Curly.

Curly must get to Sioux Falls within 3 days. How do you get Curly Home in Time for the Funeral and yet continue the trip as he insists.... or do you?

Note: Not all challenges are pure technical issues. This one has some technical considerations but Crew members emotions and compassion should also be considered.

Next Challenge: “Group Separation”.

If you missed Leadership Challenge 1:

Bear Island

If you missed Leadership Challenge 2:

Destroyed Canoe

If you missed Leadership Challenge 3:

Broken Ankle
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distinguished member(752)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 08:37AM  
Get him out ASAP.. He needs to be by his family. If and once he is on a plane home. You could work with outfitter to go back with a new permit.

And rereading it a bit wouldnt moe need to get going as well as larry since its a best friend and brother family is family trips over. Long road trip.
distinguished member(762)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 08:41AM  
They should call the outfitter and inform them of their situation, and have them book a flight out, and arrange for transportation ahead of Curly's arival. Larry and Curly should turn around and head out towards the outfitters right away. Larry has the experience to help guide Curly back to the outfitter, and also enough experience to make it back to the group. They should leave that night and paddle as hard and as long as they can. Find a place to wait out the darkness of the night, and take off as soon as they feel safe to travel the next morning. 2 people pushing it should be able to make it back, especially if they are not carrying much gear. Once they get Curly to the outfitters, Larry can swap out the tandem canoe for a solo canoe, and be able to make his way back to the group. The outfitter should be able to help Curly make it to the airport and get Curly on his way back home.
The group should stay put, until Larry makes it back to the group, or they should change their route to make it easier for Larry to catch up to them, as long as they have a prior agreement as to where they will meet up.
Timeline : Leave out by 4:30 on the 21st, and paddle until a minimum of 9:00 PM, but depending on the moonlight, maybe later. Get up and moving by 5 am on the 22nd, and paddle until you reach the Prairie Portage, get transported to the outfitters by the end of the day on the 22nd, Curly should be able to get a flight out by sometime late on the 23rd, or morning of the 24, which puts him in time for the funeral.
distinguished member (436)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 08:52AM  
get him home, these sort of things trump tripping. if there is a possibility for some to stay on the trip, that's up to the group however the most important thing is getting him home and making sure he doesn't feel guilty about it.

12/17/2009 09:29AM  
This is why I don’t want to have a phone with me while tripping. The world is what I leave when I go into the wilderness. I’ll deal with whatever happens with the world when I get back. In 06, my mother had a heart transplant, unbeknownst to me, while I was slogging out of Barto...

Seeing that everyone is pretty connected to Curly… best friend, boss, and brother, the trip is probably over. Paddle back and deal with logistics once out, most likely make the drive. If Curly isn’t to close to the inlaws and/or his wife, then maybe he is dropped off at the outfitter to fend for himself with shuttling to the airport and flying to home.

distinguished member(3141)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 09:44AM  
Some early Random thoughts....

What is the fastest way to get Curly Home.....could he feasibly be home late tomorrow night? 22 August.

Is there anyone outside the crew that could provide more information to make a decision?

How long would it take from the current time to get to Prairie Portage....

Can Curly go and come back? The funeral is at 10:00 AM. Is there enough time left in the trip to make it worth it?

Will the Beer come into play?

Just stirring the pot here....
12/17/2009 09:50AM  
Call the outfitter, tell them your situation. I am against splitting up the group while still in the BW. Get Curly to the outfitter as fast as you all can. Then the outfitter needs to get Curly to the airport. If the rest of the group can come up with another permit they can go back in. If not, spend the rest of the vacation in whatever cabin or campsite has room, fish and drink beer toasting Curly's in-laws.

The later half of my plan depends on the group. If they can get along well enough with out Curly they should be good to go. They may also choose to return to South Dakota. Beer drinking/toasting is optional.
12/17/2009 10:26AM  
Get Curly home ASAP!
Any argument from crew and it would be the last trip I'd take with them.

12/17/2009 10:35AM  
If I were Curly's trip partners, I would feel like an ass if I continued the trip. It would not be the same without Curly. Help Curly get back as quickly as possible and go home. This could mean Curly and one other go with limited gear on a quicker pace and the other canoe has more gear and goes out slower. There's always next year.
distinguished member(2020)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 10:57AM  
Assuming a good marriage and good relations with the in-laws, I would think the trip would be over despite Curly's desire to have the others continue. Recommend everyone head back. Since it's 4:00 pm with decent weather a NW wind, contact the outfitter to coordinate a tow from PP the next afternoon. Head south and make camp either in Kahs or Yum-Yum. Leave camp at sunrise and and head for PP (my son and I made it from PP to Yum Yum via Shade in about 9 hours, leisurely paddling and double portaging, last July). You should be able to get back to the Land Rover by 6:00 pm or so. Then head for Sioux Falls and get their around 2:00 am Aug 23. It'll be an arduous day/night of paddling and driving, but even in these tragic circumstances, you'll probably never forget it and will come to cherish the friendship/teamwork needed to make it happen. And as been's said already, there's always next year. And the beer will still be there.
12/17/2009 11:09AM  
I would want my friends to get me out but salvage as much of their trip as they could.

I would call the outfitter after the group has decided what to do.

A lot may depend on Curly's relationship to his in-laws. If they were like parents to him, I'd be with him every step of the way. If he couldn't stand them and is only heading home to support his wife, I don't know that my presence would help. If I were in his shoes, I'd feel terrible about ending a trip for social issues that I really didn't have that much emotionally invested...kinda crass, I know, but extreme environments sometimes demand an extreme response.

Again, if it were me, I'd want to be there to support my wife, but having my friends exit early would make me feel worse.

Would drive home, the time waiting in the airport would likely negate any travel time savings, unless the flight was perfectly timed. I'd rent a car in Ely and drive the 8 hours home as soon as I hit town, leaving the trip car for my tripmates.
12/17/2009 12:34PM  
Since you have the SAT phone and you got the message, trip over.

next time remember not to check messages until a few days into the trip.
or better yet dont bring one.......that keeps those pesky family emergencies from cutting the trip short
I am mostly kidding of course....maybe

but my answer to the question as it is laid out remains the same, trip over for Curly anyhow......whether or not the rest go on ofter is up for debate. however odds are you dont go on, as its just not the same with good ole Curly.

12/17/2009 01:09PM  
I guess I'd get out and stock up on more beer at boji's.
I think as part of the remaining three I'd try to stay in for an abridged version of the trip.
distinguished member(5360)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
12/17/2009 01:25PM  
Looks like trip over as most of the experience probably wants to head back to the funeral. Lessons to consider:

1) Go camping with your spouse.

2) Sat phones are for outgoing calls. Took one on our last trip and no one knew the number and it never came out of the case.

Yes, we have relatives who are not comfortable with us being completely out of touch but we don't even tell them we carry a sat phone.
distinguished member(3436)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 01:42PM  
Life was alot simpler when we could say "there will be NO WAY to reach us" until we get out.

Please lets NOT start the technology debate AGAIN.
distinguished member(3471)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 02:04PM  
#1. Never bring a Sat phone.
#2. Since you ignored #1, the crew heads back to the outfitter, who has been alerted in advance (well, you do have the phone) to shuttle the guy to Duluth. Once back, you'll need to break apart the packs and rejigger things (reduce food, his gear etc, and trade in the tandem for a solo. Have the Outfitter draw up a new loop for the remainder of the trip.... the good news is that Quetico 2 miles in is often just as good as Quetico 50 miles in. Leave the Sat phone with the outfitter.
distinguished member(607)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 03:24PM  
Everyone comes out immediately. Our group would push forward until we got back. Paddling and portaging at night are not that hard when you have to/want to. The only unknown for me is the portages in the Q. I have never been there so I don't know how easy it would be to get lost compared to the BWCA.
The brother, the best friend, and the boss (he must be a friend if he he is on the trip with them) have one obligation at this point; that is to get Curly to his wife as soon as possible. This means getting to the vehicle and driving straight back to SD. The airplane idea would actually take longer to get him home.
distinguished member(1168)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 03:44PM  
Everyone leaves. simple as that. Anyone who stays cannot avoid the *sshole tag that will be placed on them.
distinguished member(3141)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 04:41PM  
Bojibob didn't set the Funeral Date. This was passed on via the SAT with Curley's Wife.

Bojibob rents boats and sells beer.
12/17/2009 05:02PM  
Boji- I'm still wiped out from the compound fracture! Gotta think about this one. Putting myself in the position of having $700 out there on a first time trip.
distinguished member(3141)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 05:11PM  
RH rest up.... Challenge #6 which is coming up Saturday will require paper pen, Ouji Board, Abacus, Chystal Ball and a Pot of Coffee. I get the feeling when most read it...they will utter something like.... "OH ____!" and elect to go read another thread.
12/17/2009 05:11PM  
Ok, I thought. Let's pack up and get our buddy out ASAP. Curly (and his brother too) need to get back to family.

Get outfitter to book flight and shuttle to airport (???) for Curly and brother and have a tow waiting for us. Us other two will drive home with what ever gear we need to take back. After Curly and his brother are off, we can layover a day at the outfitter to rest after the hard-a&& return from Quetico.

bojibob - you're wearing me out. Keep 'em coming :)
12/17/2009 05:24PM  
Lots of good ideas here. Curly definitely must get back, no question about that. But let's consider what each person might think.

Curly: "This is my emergency and I'll get myself out; everyone else should finish the trip."

Mo: "I'm your brother and your wife is my sister-in-law and I'm going with you."

Larry: "Mo, you being Curly's family trumps me being his best friend. I'll stay."

Harry: "I want to support Curly. Whoever goes with him should take my car. Just please get it back by the time we get out. And Curly, take whatever time you need for your family, and let me know when you think you'll be back at work."

With everyone's feelings out in the open it should be fairly easy to reach consensus (a decision each person can live with). Whether Mo rejoins the trip or goes back with Curly is a relatively minor issue, but if he goes back with Curly he'll have to figure out transportation.

I'd support Mo going back rather than Larry, since between the two of them they have enough skill to do it on their own.
12/17/2009 05:40PM  
all friends, all leave. screw the lost trip and lost money.
Rapid Runner
distinguished member(622)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 06:05PM  
i have never been to my best friends inlaws funeral, and im not sure any of them would go to their inlaws funeral. i would almost bet they would tell me to erase the message and pretend we did not get it and we will celebrate when we get home.

distinguished member(1168)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 06:06PM  
you guys are forgetting about Cindy, Mindy, Linda and Wanda

Cindy= Curly's wife + dead parents Curly better get home now!!!
Mindy = sister in law, she knows if Mo doesn't get his rear home with Curly that she is going to look like the big b*tch who didn't care that Cindy's folks died.
Linda= Larry wife, he has made 40+ trips and quite frankly she's tired of it all. She uses the logic that if Curly came home you should have to.
Wanda= She has no emotional attachment here. She is the wild card

So in the nd what did we learn. Curly, Mo and Larry are all screwed together. But Harry is the one who is most screwed, hell he drove their butts up there, he owes no one nothing. His only problem is that he needs Larry to get his rookie butt through this week and now he just as screwed. This group will never trip together again. Especially after Linda finds out about Larry and Wanda!!!!!!
12/17/2009 06:09PM  
Bring it on! Looks like I'll have plenty of time to ponder Saturday. We got a foot of snow on the way! With freezing rain mixed in. And some good winds to boot.
distinguished member (395)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 06:38PM  
trying to look at all of these as my own regular group of 4 more than lar,Mo,Cur and Harry. The other 3 decide what we want to do, I know everyone will say get Curly out. We all travel out as fast as possible.When we're out,if time doesn't permit it,we get Curly shuttled to the airport and the rest decide if we drive back now or stay in Ely and fish,daytrip or find a BW permit.If time allows to drive,then the others decide if we all drive back together or shuttle Curly to the airport and stay and fish,daytrip or find a BW permit.

These are getting tougher.
distinguished member(3141)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 06:52PM  
FishNFreak....too funny! I give you credit for working the problem and providing an aspect I never thought of. The Wife Issue, which would truly be a factor.
12/17/2009 08:27PM  
I've seen quite a few of this kind of situation, though not for a fatality and not two days into the wilderness. Typically, the person who has to leave or otherwise change plans feels guilty about the other people getting the short end of the stick. In the dialogue I outlined above I left out the part where Curly says, "I don't want you guys to give up your trip because of this. I can manage." And the only person he'd be halfway comfortable going with him would be his brother, who would probably want to help him. He'd feel pretty bad if the others insisted on going out, too.
12/17/2009 08:37PM  
if you are friends and even the *least bit write the trip off and leave.sorry, but thats the answer.
12/17/2009 08:56PM  
One reason group solos make so much sense!!
12/17/2009 09:21PM  
fishnfreak, that is too weird. I have a brother named Larry, and his wife's name actually is Wanda. I kid you not.
distinguished member(1284)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 09:48PM  
There will be more trips - get him home!
12/17/2009 10:31PM  
kanoes, how I view friends is irrelevant. I have quite a bit of experience leading and facilitating groups where difficult decisions have to be made - including group canoeing/camping trips. I've seen too many situations where the entire group takes responsibility for one person's inconvenience, and then the person feels guilty about it afterwards. In the worst cases of over-responsibility, other members of the group feel resentful that their experience was disrupted - never mind that it was their own choice.

I've found that it works much better when the group members accept that not everyone has to jump up and carry the person on their shoulders (so to speak). In the situation we're analyzing here, there are several complicating factors, including the long planning time and Curly's boss being there. If Curly is like many of the folks I've known, if everyone leaves with him he'll not only feel guilty that his problem resulted in an aborted trip, but it could also affect his relationship with his boss.

The solution is not to take a blind attitude toward group solidarity, but to make a clear decision that optimizes each person's needs and desires - whatever the end result may be. Feel free to disagree. I've explained myself. As always, you can take what you like and leave the rest.
distinguished member(2162)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/17/2009 11:20PM  
2005 on Cutty Lake (2 lakes North of Keefer), my buddy put 4 hooks of a lure in the back of his head at about 10 AM.
I cut the lure free of the hooks & poured gin over the wounds.
We packed up and broke camp at Noon, and paddled (Grumman canoe)the 33 miles (16 portages) into a stiff wind.
Saw a Scout Group on North Bay, and used their radio phone, to call ahead for a tow pick up at Prairie Portage.
Made it to Williams & hall outfitters by 11:30 PM. Had him at the Ely hospital by 12:30 AM. Nephew & I were having a drink in Dees bar at 12:45 AM.
12/18/2009 05:52AM  
Are the fish biting? :)

Sucky deal for everyone, but pull the plug.
distinguished member(752)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/18/2009 06:47AM  

Would it not be the reasponsible thing to do by not pissing and moaning about the loss trip. I know I would be crushed if I lost any one of my in laws. No I would not expect my brother to travel up from Georga for the funneral but I know my best friend and brothers well enough that they would be there for me in this exact instanse. The trip is only ten days. You have a life time left with your wife and hopefully your friends.
12/18/2009 07:34AM  
The trip is over. Other than the rookie boss (who's also a friend if he's been invited on the trip), all the others are close enough to attend the funeral as well, or at least feel enough remorse about continuing that the focus of the trip would no longer be pleasant.

Not only they, but also the rest of the family have to live together afterward, and I agree that the wives are not going to understand *anyone* continuing the trip. The funeral is not for the benefit of the dead - it's for the benefit of the living, and they will not be sympathetic to the desire to keep going. It will be far easier to take another trip than explain that decision to them.

My personal opinion? This is why I turn the phone off and/or leave it behind. There's nothing that requires my presence badly enough to warrant it.

Food for thought - If there really was something important enough to require my presence (my son needs one of my kidneys right now?), the wife would have a float plane and search crew sent out to my planned route to find me.

PS. It's unfortunate and sad to see the sniping from 2 people whose opinions I otherwise enjoy reading. For the benefit of the board, I would be understanding if the moderators took a more heavy handed approach to solving the problem. Though that is a burden I would not envy.
12/18/2009 07:45AM  
distinguished member(1775)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/18/2009 09:05AM  
a wife perspective

If my parents were just tragically killed in a car accident, I would want my husband home asap. I really wouldn't give a rip whether his friends stayed or went. However, thinking about it, my spouse camps once a year with a group of guys and I cant imagine any of them would even consider staying if this for real ever happened.

If the other guys' wives were close to curly's wife, they might want their spouses home. It would depend on their relationships. Curly's wife is going to need a lot of help and support from her friends and if her friends are married to Curly's friends, they will be basically working full time to help Curly's wife make plans for the funeral, memorial, burial, dealing with the children, a lot of logistical stuff as well as emotional. They would very much appreciate their husbands being home to help them deal, keep the household from falling apart, and just being there.

The boss-- he'd be forced to abort the trip but he seems rich enough to absorb the lost cost. No one would really be thinking too much about him-- two people were suddenly killed. If he were a good guy, he would help expedite the trip back in any way that money can buy.

The group should return to the exact spot the following year, and redo the trip. The outfitter, Bojibob's Bait and Beer, should give them deep discounts for every thing they need. The wives should go on their own trip too.
12/18/2009 09:16AM  
I change my answer
can I do that?

ignore the message and finish the trip.......Curly doesn't like his in-laws anyhow, that is what I would do

or Curly and his brother bail and the other two finish the trip

stupid phones all they do is cause trouble........

distinguished member(14135)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
12/18/2009 09:36AM  
Leave as soon as possible, this isnt his canary that died, its his wifes mother and father, and if your close to that person you just wouldnt feel right trying to enjoy yourself while your friend is at his wifes parents funeral and (your not). You can always reschedule another trip, you cant reschedule the death of your friends wifes parents. Go home and support your friend at the funeral. The measure of a friend is what they do when times are tough !!!
12/18/2009 09:42AM  
I'm still a little lost here.... where is Shemp?
12/18/2009 10:41AM  
I wondered about Shemp, too. Maybe Harry fired him.

kanoes seems to be the victim of some combination of limited thinking and combativeness. No matter, though, since all I've done is explained my thinking. If he has trouble with that it's his problem, not mine.

I really don't want to have to lay out the experience that informs my opinions, but in this case maybe it's appropriate. I proposed a consensus process because it works in the moment and minimizes future bad feelings. In fact, over my 18 years of facilitating planning and problem-solving groups (plus a handful of outdoor trips), consensus is the only decision process I've seen give sustainable results. Military situations are often different, but they don't apply here.

I simply outlined what I thought would be a good way to go about it, including looking at it from each person's perspective - which is what the exercise called for. I also didn't lay out all my thinking, which includes the dynamic called "survivor guilt" where the people who stay behind (in this case those who continue the trip) feel they don't have the right to have a job (or otherwise enjoy themselves) when others are suffering. My perspective on this point comes from having successfully led a group of post-layoff work survivors through the process of managing survivor guilt, in addition to handling similar issues in outdoor settings.

My suggested outcome may not be the one chosen by any four individuals, but my reasoning is sound. The bottom line, I suppose, is that people will consider other ideas regardless of the experience (perhaps even wisdom) behind them.
distinguished member(3141)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/18/2009 11:06AM  
Editors Notes:

1. Shemps middle name is Harry. All the kids at the Prep School teased him constantly and called him "Shrimp" He has been going by Harry ever since.

2. Koda and Kanoes. Stand Down...please.
distinguished member(607)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/18/2009 11:54AM  
Koda - I am pretty sure he asked you to stand down and you are still trying to convince someone that you are right. Now for the rest of us who are enjoying this, please stand down.
distinguished member(3141)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/18/2009 11:55AM  
Input is always welcome. Back and forth bickering isn't. Please email or call each other or set up a thread called the Koda and Kanoes Smackdown, post a time and I'm sure someone will show up to watch, just not me. I'm trying to do something positive here and whatever you two have going doesn't need to be included here. Do not respond. Email me if you wish.
distinguished member(3311)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/18/2009 12:06PM  
Do SAT phones skip well on flat, calm water?
12/18/2009 12:24PM  
Dunno, never gonna rent one, never gonna know.
distinguished member(14135)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
12/18/2009 02:33PM  
I would like to add that I personally wouldnt rent a satellite phone because if theres something really pressing in my life at home i would reschedule going anyway, but since the question was based on the fact that you did get the call, I would leave right away no question. However if it was already discussed ahead of time that might change my mind, but i still think i would cancell the trip anyway. I really like these challenge questions keep them coming, and id like to add my answers are based on what i would do, not based on what i think others should do.
12/18/2009 03:00PM  
brerud, if you and others would just read what I've written you wouldn't be twisting yourself up in your shorts. I have simply explained my thinking - which happens to come from extensive training (almost a PhD) in organizational dynamics and a career's worth of experience in group decision-making. I have not said that my ideas represent the only answer, though kanoes has taken that position (which is really neither here nor there). And I am not trying to convince anyone of anything except that what I proposed is based in logic and experience.

I will certainly stand down, since it's clear that some outspoken folks are more interested in their own interpretations than understanding what's been said.
distinguished member(3311)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/18/2009 03:04PM  
Koda - an expert (almost a PhD) in group dynamics should be able to navigate a messageboard on canoeing with ease. Go with the flow dude. Go with the flow.
distinguished member(3311)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/18/2009 03:21PM  
fishguts - i'm laughin my a$$ off - you must either be single, divorced or widowed.
distinguished member(604)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/18/2009 03:49PM  
Fishguts you're killin me !!!
Good point though - they'll still be dead, whenever... they get back. LOL
Always good to hear some Mountain man insight to help get things in perspective.
12/18/2009 03:50PM  
Nope! Married 38 years.
12/18/2009 04:20PM  
Thanks! Joe! :)
distinguished member(604)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
12/18/2009 04:27PM  
No problem, credit where credit is due :D

Just catching up with this thread.

Does Kanoes actually think he has the arsenal to go to battle with an intellect like Koda? He should know better after being ridden like a rented mule. LOL
12/18/2009 06:00PM  
Quote from AndyM:

2/17/2009 01:25PM

"Looks like trip over as most of the experience probably wants to head back to the funeral. Lessons to consider:

1) Go camping with your spouse.

2) Sat phones are for outgoing calls. Took one on our last trip and no one knew the number and it never came out of the case.

Yes, we have relatives who are not comfortable with us being completely out of touch but we don't even tell them we carry a sat phone."

I could have written all of the above, and indeed, did think of writing nearly the same words. Having said that, though, in the problem there IS a SAT phone, and they do know about the deaths of the in-laws. Soap-Opera or not, at this point, common human decency says that the trip is canceled, postponed, put on hold, or whatever so that the three men who know the unfortunate accident victims are headed back for support of family during a traumatic situation.

This isn't a case of intellect, just a case of family and friends doing the decent thing.

That's just my opinion, and admittedly the opinion of a person who wouldn't have been able to be reached in the first place.

Seems to me that tremolo had a good suggestion for follow-up, too.

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12/18/2009 06:43PM  
Trip over. They paid for an adventure; they soitenly got one. Nyuk uk uk...

PhD? Really? as in 'Piled higher and Deeper'?
12/18/2009 08:00PM  
Don't play hero role here. Ask what everyone wants in group meeting. Personal feelings don't get hurt in times of death.
12/19/2009 06:31AM  
Leave and remember that the best trip is always the next one anyway.
12/19/2009 07:13AM  
True friends will stick behind one another 100% - all leave and plan again.
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12/19/2009 11:25AM  
Screw the money screw the trip and be a sympathetic friend. Call outfitter asap to make flight arrangements and get out of dodge. If the other 3 would like to continue there trip they can get a new permit and adjust accordingly once at the outfitters.
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12/19/2009 02:24PM  
Yes, all leave, as true friends would do and have no problem doing.

Next trip bring no phones out.
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12/19/2009 04:57PM  
I go for Curly and his is probably what he needs.... hopfully there will be another triptime....but friends and family support at home should come now
everyone leaves together in the morning
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12/19/2009 07:42PM  
This challenge demonstrates the importance of pre-trip planning. Thank you, bojibob.

Select those you travel with VERY CAREFULLY and make sure everyone is on the same page before you even take the trip. Life is too short!

In my opinion, the four of them began the trip together so they end it together (even if it's shortened by an unplanned event). Everyone works together to get home safely. The individual can assess his own feelings and decide the details (when, where, WITH WHO, etc.) of his next trip.

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12/29/2009 03:18PM  

I'm with Kanoes on this one. No real decision here. These guys are buddies. They have to be after spending two years together planning this trip. Of course Curly wants them to continue. Likely, we would all say the same thing. Fact is, however, we all know that trips are largely about the people we're with. In this case, we travel together or we leave together.

Trip's over. Call the outfitter. Arrange transportation for all. Go home. Support your buddy. Plan another trip.
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12/30/2009 12:03PM  
Looks like we are headed to Duluth. Call BBB's and tell'em to get transportation for 4 to Daloot and some cold Duvels ready. On the 22nd, Grab the phone and make sure your favorite pizza place knows your on the way, then Get Curly on da plane. Oddly as Curly boards the plane you hear him humming a tune from The Wizard of Oz.
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01/05/2010 02:04PM  
This is my first response without reading the others...

It is 4pm. You are just starting to set up camp. Pause for second to get your thoughts straight.

After discussing with everyone, start taking down camp. Pack up and start heading back down. Get as far as you can safely go before it gets too dark.

Continue to travel efficiently at first light.

Get Curly to BBB as quickly as possible.

Discuss options while traveling.

Since everyone is pretty close to Curly, it seems that the best option is for everyone to pile back into Harry's SUV and head home...
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01/05/2010 02:18PM  
After reading the other responses, my reponse is still the same. Everyone leaves and gets Curly home as soon as possible.
Old Hoosier
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01/07/2010 10:50PM  
Fishguts - While I really like your response, I would likely use the SAT phone to discuss the possibility of that idea with the wife right away. However, as much as I like to paddle, if no delay was possible and I didn't go to the funeral I would be doing ALL solos from here on! HA!

Yup - gotta "bail" and everybody goes. Even if everyone was not planning on personally going to the funeral, I would expect (and would offer) full support from everyone to get to the airport ASAP. This is clearly an "all hands on deck" situation.
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01/08/2010 03:03AM  
Since Spartan2 quoted me and then went on to discuss, I just want to make it clear that I agree it is trip over and time to head back expeditiously.
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01/08/2010 10:15AM  
Before the trip make sure there are no mama's boy in your group and make sure your group agrees that the trip has to keep going even something happens in family.
01/09/2010 05:51PM  
I'd get the poor man home asap. If my wife called with that kind of news I'd want to get home to be with her and the rest of the family. I would hope the rest of the party would feel the same way. If I were leading the trip our priority immediately becomes getting our friend home. Seeing that one guy is Curly's brother and the other his best friend I would assume they would want to help him get home.
I would say that if some of the party still want to finish their vacation they can at least get Curly (and probably his brother) to the airport so he can fly home or rent a car.
I know my perspective on things will have moved far from canoeing and camping at that point.
01/11/2010 08:24PM  
A. We Sleep through the night.
B. Get early start for two days back to where we started/
C. We all ride home together (8 more hours together is best)
(not saving much time getting to airport, getting ticket, dropping
off, etc) Just as well drive home.
D We all support the Family.
E. We plan another trip for next time.
F. Curly's wife really needs Curly..No arguing about it.
03/05/2010 06:20AM  
Curly needs to get back. Best option would be to paddle back to the outfitter, who provides free shuttle service to Duluth Airport, and let Curly catch a flight to MPLS.

If Curly insisted that the rest of the group keep going (on the trip) then I would turn around, sans Curly, and continue on. Of course, even if Curly insisted, it is still something that would have to be agreed upon by all of the remaining guys.

In this instance I do not see an outfitter being cold hearted about offering a refund. You might have to ask, but I think they would; especially if it is just the one guy leaving and the rest of the group staying in. I may be wrong, but most of the outfitters I have talked with seem like the kind of people who would help out in any way the could.
03/05/2010 03:17PM  
I think the reply from shr2807 is the best way to proceed. I do think that they carefully pick necessary items to pack for their quick return. If they rush off without the proper essentials they might find themselves in a new leadership adventure.

These are a few items I would consider - two days of food (something you don't have to cook, tarp for shelter, medical, dry clothes, map, compass, fire-starter, and Curly's wallet/ID.

Larry could bring another SAT phone when he solos back to connect with the group. At a minimum, he should call them from bojibob's.

If it is determined that Curly is deeply sad about the in-laws and he was very close to them, the entire group needs to race back with him and support him. His Brother or best friend will certainly be able to make this decision.

This is a very sensitive subject and should be treated as such. This is no time to be selfish.

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