Let's pretend your trip is planned for a busy time (Opener, Memorial Day, July Forth, etc) and you have secured a permit to a popular lake. You've used the EP Usage program here on this site and done your reseach too. You 'NEED' to stay at this lake. What tactics can you use to make your chance of finding a campsite better?

be paddling well before sunrise. even doing that, its still a crapshoot on a basecamp lake.

Obviously it is a crap shoot trying to guess what day most people tend to leave, creating the most available campsites, there are influences, and guess work attached, as unlike entry, which is controlled, departure is not. A tactic that works for us in the Adirondacks (so far no issue in the BWCAW) is arriving at potential sites between 9 and 11 as most tend to break camp and leave there campsite by then. While certainly not foolproof it has provided opportunities. It has meant some very early starts with headlamps blazing.
Boppa

Out of retirement for this one!

Question,How many permits per day? I have a dirty, LEGAL trick that works for some EP's. If your EP has only a couple of permits per day you can book all of the permits for the days prior to your intended entry day and then cancell the ones you don't want to use. This locks up the permits and pretty much guarantees you a seat in hell also.

Wow, shady...

I've never used this tactic stated above but I will admit however that it did come up a few times in planning sessions.

Another thing is to send a very lightly loaded scout group out front in order to secure the campsite. The others will paddle a few hours behind and do all the grunt work.

The best method is to do what homework you can, put the most odds in your favor that you can, talk to people on the inbound portages and get a feel for the number of inbound people that are looking at camping on your lake and the number of outbound people leaving your destination. Then hope for the best, sounds like you have already done all of those things.

I'd do the same as Kanoes suggested....An early start and if it works, start your trip on any day BUT Friday, Sat, Sun, or Monday.

Wow! All the tactics and figuring....This is why we haven't been back to the BWCA since 1975. Quetico is not like that....except maybe Basswood Lake.

Even if you book all the permits for a certain day there is no certainty that you'll get a site. You have all the people that have permits from the days before and all the people that may be there coming from a different entry point (perhaps on their way out).

I think you just have to be lucky. Get there too early and those people leaving a campsite may not have left yet - maybe not even started to pack if it is a quick exit.

Once, on Shell Lake, all the sites seem to be taken at 1:00 pm. We could see the southern site of Con Island was occupied so we paddled around the island to check out the other sites. They too were occupied. But when we finished the circle and got back to southern shore, the southern campsite was vacant. We took it.

After that we had about 4 or 5 groups paddle by while we were setting up asking if we were leaving.

We were lucky.

I suppose you could ask at each site if they were leaving that day and then hang out close by to nab it when they leave. Personally I hate that, but folks do it.

I don't have an answer for you, but good luck.

Tying up permits is a really nasty tactic. I know the reservation system has problems, but tying up permits for your personal gain? I don't buy it.

I agree with HPD....that tactic sucks. How would you like to be denied a permit because someone else did that?

We used the scout group option last Memorial Day weekend to get the lone campsite on Little Caribou Lake near Clearwater Lake. We dropped two off with a day pack at the entry point after getting the permit, then went and picked up our other two canoes, got everything ready and entered about two hours later. They had to wait a few hours for us once they got to the site but we got it.

I think you want to be at your destination mid morning(8:00-10:00) as I find that is when most people leave camp.

Get in a site before 2:00 I have been in this situation before paddling around looking for a site, and leaving a day early.
Also look for a small lake a short portage off your main lake with 1 or 2 sites, those will likely be open, and you can be on your main lake after a short portage for fishing ect.

Even dirtier...I recall a post on another board where someone actually setup a brightly colored junk tent on a site on an entry lake. This was done sometime before their entry date to help ensure their desired campsite would be available on their entry date.

Outside of the underhanded approach your options are limited. Try to leave mid-wk, get on the water bright and early. Attempt to secure a sight and send out a scout crew to explore options. If we are a group of 4, we normally break off and use motorola talkabouts to inform each other of our findings.

Thanks Thlipsis

Git ya one of these!

Planning to arrive at my destination lake early in the day has been successful for me. That said, I have never tried the BW during the times you put in the original question.

no dirty stuff. leave mid week, paddle hard at dawn, and send forth a scout/recon canoe if your group is big enough. or buy a tow if it goes there.

Flexibility. Like others have said, if you leave early enough, you stand a better chance of finding a site, but if everything is filled, you've still got time to find an alternative. Any lake up there is better than my office, so that's all I really "need."

I am surprised I have not heard Bribery or Brute Force tactics mentioned yet. I guess the bigger question is "who really needs to stay on a busy lake at a busy time?" That is a bummer if it is the case. I would get in early as possible to look for a site around 0800. if none available, hover in the area until you see someone packing up. Creep in for the kill. BUT please dont ever be that guy that paddles up during my pancakes and asks me if I'm leaving today, or worse yet when I say "yes" just starts unloading. I dont know why, but that is bothersome.

bumabu,
I agree with those tactics being bothersome and as of yet I have not experienced them in the BWCA. However, with much of our tripping done in the St. Regis Canoe Area in the Adirondacks, some areas are crowded during the peak weeks of summer and we have experienced some "bothersome" tactics.

I have seen people breaking camp and I have begun fishing at least a 1/4 of a mile away or further to get a site at these busy times. I just feel no contact verbally and some distance with the departing party is called for. Yes, it once cost me a site with a more aggressive group, but we were once hailed in by another group who asked if I had been politely fishing so not to impose upon them. When I said yes the man said he noticed another group coming and wanted us to get the site, he and his two sons then hopped in and left, not before I was finally able to thank someone for a nice pile of left firewood. He knew proper style and was going a long way to set by example to his sons.
Boppa

Take F.M. radios one in each canoe. Then have each canoe paddle on one side of the lake and when someone finds a spot they can radio the other party to let them know. Problems can occur when both canoes think they have the best spot.

You could just ditch your "need" and take a more relaxed approach to your trip.....just a suggestion.

Dogwood girl hits the nail on the head, relax and take your sites as you find them. Start very early and be off the water by lunch.

If all else fails put on a gorilla outfit and run through the camp site your wanting. Once all are scared away, move in and be at ease.

Gorilla suit wouldn't work,there have been no gorilla sightings in the BW,bigfoot, yes might work.
What would work would be to choose the sight you like,politely ask if they are leaving the sight,if the answer is negative,send a couple of Vikings in to persuade them into leaving.Vikings brandishing swords and axes are much more believable and effective in clearing out your chosen campsite than running thru the woods in a gorilla suit.(yes they are skilled in the use of an axe so there is no chance they will accidentally hurt themselves with one).
Be sure to negotiate first how you will divide any plunder.It can get ugly if you decide you want that CCS Lean plus shelter that the viking has in his arms.

We were in this exact situation last Memorial Day. It was my wife's first trip and we wanted to basecamp on Disappointment lake. If that lake was full, there were no other sites that were very close.

We had a permit for Friday before Memorial Day. Folks on this board told me that Disappoitnment might be a crap shoot on Friday...

So, we booked a permit for Thursday and cancelled our Firday permit. Wehn we got to Disappoitnemtn on Thursday, only 1 of the 7 sites was occupied. By Saturday, all the sites were full.

It still wont guarantee you a site but it will increase your odds...

The solution is to go far enough in so that you see no one. Then enjoy yourself.

Muscrat, that was enjoyable. :)

I'm really thinking that after this coming august trip to the BW I will start going to Quetico again. It's worth the hastle and money to get the solitude and better scenery and fishing.

To go along with everyone else here, yes get going EARLY. Plan to be at a campsite by late morning. Doing this does better your chances.

"Somewhat unethical"...not to mention completely illegal.

atleast my tactic was completely legal. Crappy yes, illegal no!

Don't be upset with me when you see the lottery results. I have booked EP 19 and EP 44 for the month of June with my tactic. However being the nice guy that I am, I will be scalping permits for a slight profit later on in the season. Just one of the services that I offer.

I'll turn myself in. That rule must be in the small print, because I can not find it. Would it be legal if the campsite is scouted then occupied the same day? I resorted to this tactic a few years ago. Had a large group and we needed a large campsite, the outfitter suggested it.

Find the camp you want to be at. A month or so prior to your departure make false claims on every messageboard pertaining to BWCA about problem bears at that camp as well as an active hornets nest. Even go so far as to inform others of the Forest Services plan to close it for the rest of the year. "You guys know about that hornets nest on Boulder Bay right! If you don't it's just past the camp that had all those issues with bears last year. I hope the Forest Service does something about that really terrible situation soon"

I was curious as well about the rule Kanoes cites. There is a rule against leaving unattended equipment that is not part of the current trip (e.g. you can't cache stuff to use later in the year). So one person can't go in pitch a tent and leave it for someone traveling on another permit.

But you can certainly send someone from your group ahead to find a campsite to be occupied later that day.

There are campsites we just love and return to and would be sad not to get, but we found each of them by accident that first time and so we also know that there are still others out there to find. Last year we didn't get one of the sites we aimed at and wound up with a new one to add to the group of favorites. So, I think it is best to adopt an it's all good attitude. After all, each one is on the water.

I saw a site on Ensign sit devoid of people for 2 days, even though there was a tent and a couple other items there. It was still uninhabited when we left.
andym....could you tell me where to find that rule....thanks. (future confrontation fuel)

The rules from a forest service site are here:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/superior/bwcaw/documents/BWCAWRulesandRegulations.pdf And unless the folks at that campsite got marooned somewhere there shouldn't be unattended stuff at campsites overnight. Only case I can think of here is someone who posted that they sometimes do night hikes and then take a nap somewhere without really making camp. But leaving stuff for days is odd.

Hold on boys. I sometimes make a basecamp and take daytrips to other lakes and if the fishing is good, instead of paddling back, we make a spike camp and paddle back to base camp the next day. Is that illegal? If so tough sh#t, then I'm a law breaker!

Here ya go doc. If the equipment is part of the current "visit", apparently it is ok (but with the shortage of available campsites in so many areas, it's a little shady IMHO).

Thanks guys. There it is in black and white.

What if your the spike camp lake has no campsites and you don't make a fire, just set up a tent and go to bed. I think this will turn out to be another violation for me.

Well if someone here gives you a hard time, check the peeing threads and see if they are always going 150' back into the woods.

Knowing that someone would do this makes me want to pee in their vestibule...

So then. To all of you making these "shady" type suggestions on how to secure a campsite. Can I then assume that none of you would be the least bit upset if someone pulled said tactic on that you?

Great question by Kiporby. I've never done a trip to Quetico but have it as a goal to have a trip where competition for a site won't be foremost on my mind while traveling.

i stopped going to my favorite lake because of a group doing crap like this. there are three of them and they each have there own campsite and monopolize the whole lake. i know its legal but it still gets under my skin. i have tried for three years to change my dates i go to avoid them and every year we all seem to hit.

Why don't you just ask who they are and exchange e-mails. Then ask them when they are going every year. On a serious note: No one here actually thinks that people do the things that are being discussed in here. Most, if not all of these suggestions are merely hypothetical or posted for winter kicks you know!

I actually find it sad to read some of these "tactics" people use and suggest to secure campsites, such as having another place things there ahead of their own arrival, double site camping etc. This beautiful area belongs to all of us for all of our enjoyment. We need to share it and care for it. Having to have a specific campsite is short-sighted. Having to secure it illegally or making it hard for our fellow travelers is just wrong. Each party is responsible to plan their trip, arrive at at entry, canoe and find a place to camp. Flexibility and smart planning are part of the wilderness experience. Thinking of others is still, hopefully, part of the human one.

Here, Here. Couldn't have stated it any better Burgydancer.

I'll second that.....

If you're not cheating you're not trying. There is a difference between cheating and being unlawful. My tactic, however shallow, was cheating not conniving or illegal.

Supercub, I hope you don't honestly believe that "if you're not cheating you're not trying." I am very sorry if you do. But maybe I should first ask "Are you in politics or on Wall Street?" By the way Webster's dictionary defines cheating as violating rules dishonestly. It can also mean defrauding or swindling.

i like how schweady puts it: "Knowing that someone would do this makes me want to pee in their vestibule..."

ROFL!!! very nice sir!!! But seriously... just take a gamble on getting where u want, Columbus did...

Supercub, why don't you pay somebody to take your trip for you!

First-I will apologize to the board members for the upcoming rant. I have stayed off this post for sometime hoping to calm down-but the practice supercub has suggested is so reprehensible that I can no longer stay quiet.

Supercub-

If I ever find out who the outfitter is that feels they need to resort to the tactic of planting a tent on a site to keep their customers happy I will do a number of things-

1) Never use their services or bunk house-EVER!!

2) I will spread the word about their tactics. The BWCAW community is small enough, passionate enough and I know enough people, group leaders and others that the bad press that could be generated would dramatically impact their business.

3) Personally call the owner and voice my anger and displeasure.

Note-To the numerous outfitters that frequent this board: If you go in prior to an Entry date and set up a tent, please stop. If you don't-which I would assume the majority of you do not-thank you. In addition, if any customer ever suggests such a tactic to you I hope you would politely decline or even ask them to take their business elsewhere in the future.

Part of the challenge of the BWCAW is the unknown, including getting to and finding a campsite. With proper planning one can always get a useable site even for large groups in the busy months of July and August. Sometimes they are not the site that you had hoped for, but often times I find the site I end up with becomes one of my favorite sites in the future. During busy months you do need to get going early and stop early to obtain a campsite. Those who insist on traveling into popular lakes near Entry points after 4 or 5:00 or even later at night, only to find the lake full, should not complain. This is merely poor planning on their part.

If you feel you need to make sure that you get the campsite you want, stay at state parks in their reservable campgrounds or their canoe-in sites where you can actually pre-reserve the actual site legally.

Sorry supercub-but I find this practice not only illegal, unfair but very selfish as well. It absolutely goes against the reason this area exists. The area is there for everyone's enjoyment not just yours and your groups.

PS-this post also applies to those who may book permits before or after their intended entry dates in hoping to keep the crowds down. Shame on you too.

Rant off

Bogwalker, no need to apologize here! I've held off responding myself and echo your comments.

(Favorite lake: "any lake where other people are not") Isn't this everyone's goal? Let's all do it right.

This thread is really about LAME efforts to make ones trip more comfy at the expense of others. Be it cheating, conniving, or what ever B.S. excuse one comes up with it is wrong. If one can not see that there actions are not FAIR to others then WHY continue with them. This thread is not about the love of paddling or the desire to be in the BWCA its about selfish people being selfish. People whom behave in such a manner are the same idiots whom have little regard for those around them and certainly do not care how there actions effect others. It is irritating at best to hear that folks whom have the desire to share their experiences and thoughts on such a web page are not conscious enough to see or understand the basics of what the BWCA community is about. There is no rational for behavior like this and I hope you will wake up. Hazing folks about peeing in there vestibule funny. Reading about conniving selfish people irritating. If you have the desire to behave in such a manner do not come to the BWCA go far away far, far away. Peace D-

This is why I'm going in mid-May.

This is why I go winter backpacking.

This is why my general perception of people is less than stellar.

The true wilderness experience is no more.

There really is no true wilderness left in the lower 48. I thought it could still be had in the BWCA, but apparently not.

I'm bummed.

Just to clarify the whole vestibule thing... it's was inspired by bumabu's thread in the gear forum.

Great idea, tho... "Coming to a squatter's cabin near you..."

(Ooooh... hey, now... that sort of welcome mat deposit might be better yet...)

I got it Schweady; it made me laugh.

The BWCA isn't special in this regard... there are times when I know I could scheme to give myself an "impolite" advantage... but I choose not to; I'd rather be kind to others.

I guess that's where I'm at with this. I want to have a good time, but not at someone else's expense.

Though... sneaking up to come creep's vestibule in the middle of the night does have a certain allure... :)

When I go up I rarely go up during a busy time of year, but we portage in the dark and put in just as soon as it's light enough to see. We are not as fast as most paddlers so this tactic buys us some time. Usually make LLC by 1PM and find most sites open.

Start looking for a site at 10 am.

fishguts: "Wow! All the tactics and figuring....This is why we haven't been back to the BWCA since 1975. Quetico is not like that....except maybe Basswood Lake."

+1 Q

I wonder if big zig is still looking for his site, kind of like Charlie on the MBTA...

I like to show up at a campsite drunk and naked singing I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok......with my banjo....It tends to thin out the crowds just a wee bit.....

nooneuno: "I like to show up at a campsite drunk and naked singing I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok......with my banjo....It tends to thin out the crowds just a wee bit....."

It's been a long time since I've heard that song...

4keys: "

nooneuno: "I like to show up at a campsite drunk and naked singing I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok......with my banjo....It tends to thin out the crowds just a wee bit....."

It's been a long time since I've heard that song..."

I went to a screening of Holy Grail last year, with a Q&A afterward with John Cleese. It was one of my favorite things I've ever done in my life. Monty Python was absolutely the biggest influence on my sense of humor starting at about the age of 12 or 13, when Flying Circus was on PBS in Dallas every night.

At the end of the show, they played the Lumberjack Song over the house system. Greatness.

BuckFlicks - Good to see a fellow DFW Metroplex on here - Do not run into too many BWCA fans around here.

I live in the Midlothian area... been going "Up North" to the BW for a long time, maybe 25+ trips. Hope to run into you some time!

billconner: "I wonder if big zig is still looking for his site, kind of like Charlie on the MBTA..."

That brings back some childhood memories :)

Thanks for making me smile

I am heading out onto the numbered lakes out to Hudson/Insula/Fire this next weekend. My outfitter friends basically told me to keep paddling past Lake One and Lake Two the first day. I've never been up to the BW on Memorial Day weekend. As a rule, I avoid holiday weekends. Unfortunately, for me, I had to use up a week of my vacation time back in January for my wife's surgery.

SO... if I was going to go and maximize what little vacation time I have, I HAD to go on a holiday weekend. I plan on getting an earlier start Friday morning and being off the water and in a campsite by noon that day. I start looking for campsites around noonish and I have several marked on my map along the route that look promising. I also have a couple "Plan B" campsites just in case.

On this trip....wherever I land will be "basecamp" for the weekend. I figure there are probably some local "cooler campers" will show up later in the day at the entry point, and I want to be several hours ahead of them.

As others have said... relax and have fun. Even if the fishing is rotten, I'm happy to be anywhere, but at work somewhat away from civilization.

PapaBear1975: "I am heading out onto the numbered lakes out to Hudson/Insula/Fire this next weekend. My outfitter friends basically told me to keep paddling past Lake One and Lake Two the first day. I've never been up to the BW on Memorial Day weekend. As a rule, I avoid holiday weekends. Unfortunately, for me, I had to use up a week of my vacation time back in January for my wife's surgery.

SO... if I was going to go and maximize what little vacation time I have, I HAD to go on a holiday weekend. I plan on getting an earlier start Friday morning and being off the water and in a campsite by noon that day. I start looking for campsites around noonish and I have several marked on my map along the route that look promising. I also have a couple "Plan B" campsites just in case.

On this trip....wherever I land will be "basecamp" for the weekend. I figure there are probably some local "cooler campers" will show up later in the day at the entry point, and I want to be several hours ahead of them.

As others have said... relax and have fun. Even if the fishing is rotten, I'm happy to be anywhere, but at work somewhat away from civilization. "

Memorial Day weekend is my go to trip start time. If the weather is good it will be busy until about Wednesday morning. If the weather is crappy you'll do a little better in the solitude dept. Your mileage may vary. All that said, I've never been to the number chain. Happy paddling, I hope you find what you are looking for.