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   Listening Point - General Discussion
      Old Timer's Question Addendum     

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Argo
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04/15/2021 01:51PM  
Given some of the acceptable camping practices from the olden days (circa 1970) like burning garbage, burying or sinking cans, nails in trees etc...what are we doing today on our camping trips that our descendants will be incredulous about in fifty years?
 
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JWilder
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04/15/2021 02:05PM  
I absolutely love this question...
 
inspector13
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04/15/2021 02:42PM  

Using a latrine or digging a cat hole. Packing "it" out is already mandatory in some places. I can see it expanding.

 
PineKnot
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04/15/2021 02:42PM  
Argo: "....what are we doing today on our camping trips that our descendants will be incredulous about in fifty years?"

Using lead weights for fishing...
 
Unas10
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04/15/2021 03:35PM  
Campfires.
 
GraniteCliffs
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04/15/2021 03:40PM  
Great question. Good answers.
My biggest fear is that fifty or a hundred years from now people will look back and wonder what folks were thinking in 2025 or 2035 when we collectively caved to outside pressures to alter or destroy the BW and Q by expanding access too much, making too many portage or campsite "improvements", allowing mining or logging in a detrimental manner or allowing the parks to be overrun with people.
As TR said: "Leave it as it is."
 
04/15/2021 05:22PM  
I think our descendants 50 years from now (that would be when my great-grandchildren, if I have any, would probably be becoming adults) won't go camping at all. They will be so completely engrossed in technology that they won't even know that there IS an outdoors, or think anyone would be crazy enough to spend time there.

And I hope I am wrong.
 
04/15/2021 06:12PM  
Spartan2: "I think our descendants 50 years from now (that would be when my great-grandchildren, if I have any, would probably be becoming adults) won't go camping at all. They will be so completely engrossed in technology that they won't even know that there IS an outdoors, or think anyone would be crazy enough to spend time there.


And I hope I am wrong."


Like having IV's deliver your food and nutrients to your body as you lay on a couch and become lost and basically living inside of VR? Think I saw a movie about that once and it was disturbing. Wouldn't surprise me though.
 
Canoearoo
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04/15/2021 06:51PM  
Portaging canoes. I mean why portage when the hover behind you ;)
 
04/15/2021 07:47PM  
Spartan2: "I think our descendants 50 years from now (that would be when my great-grandchildren, if I have any, would probably be becoming adults) won't go camping at all. They will be so completely engrossed in technology that they won't even know that there IS an outdoors, or think anyone would be crazy enough to spend time there.


And I hope I am wrong."


If that happens and park usage goes down, it's likely they will shrink it and build resorts etc. Or maybe "Glamping Parks" on some of the lakes with pizza delivery for an option.
 
Duff
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04/15/2021 07:52PM  
That there used to be Lake Trout in the lakes.
 
straighthairedcurly
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04/15/2021 08:21PM  
PineKnot: "Argo: "....what are we doing today on our camping trips that our descendants will be incredulous about in fifty years?"

Using lead weights for fishing..."


I already find it incredulous.
 
JWilder
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04/15/2021 08:23PM  
I have a couple of thoughts floating around in my head. And I believe the op's question was geared toward environmental issues. But this one will relate to Spartan2's post about technology, but with a slight twist.

As technology evolves and service continues to encroach on the BWCAW. It will become the norm for people tripping to have service in an ever expanding area. 50 years from now, campers will be spending there evenings in camp watching movies and some form of "tik tok" on their devices. Whatever kind of device that will be.

That generation will be incredulous when I tell them that I spent my time in canoe country in silence; in tune with nature and the beauty that surrounded me. Listening to the loons at sunset. Sitting by the shore and doing absolutely NOTHING, and being completely content.

Yeah, they will not understand...

JW
 
04/15/2021 09:06PM  
JWilder, you are nine years younger than my son. Our canoe-trip "baby" (born nine months after our first trip.)

But, you see, I take it back another whole generation. To before SAT phones, before InReach, before SPOT, before weather radios, before firing up your cell phone as you leave the park to call whomever is waiting to hear from you. (We had to find a pay phone. Anyone remember those? )

I can tell you that the silence we spent in the canoe country was more silent than what is even available now. It changed, just in our forty years of canoe-tripping, and it will continue to change. It's already different than it was when we "retired" from tripping in 2013.

Covid is going to give us a "new normal". And technology is giving us one, too.

 
EddyTurn
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04/15/2021 09:08PM  
My guess, my grand-grand-kids will be lost trying to comprehend why we spent more time and thought discussing LNT than the global warming and other ways in which we destroy environment. My single trip to BWCA will produce over two thousand pounds of carbon dioxide. Of course it feels easier (and more practical) to abandon campfires in favor of a gas stove than to vote industry lobby out of the office, but am I really concerning myself with the latter??
 
JWilder
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04/16/2021 05:46AM  
Spartan2: "JWilder, you are nine years younger than my son. Our canoe-trip "baby" (born nine months after our first trip.)

But, you see, I take it back another whole generation. To before SAT phones, before InReach, before SPOT, before weather radios, before firing up your cell phone as you leave the park to call whomever is waiting to hear from you. (We had to find a pay phone. Anyone remember those? )


I can tell you that the silence we spent in the canoe country was more silent than what is even available now. It changed, just in our forty years of canoe-tripping, and it will continue to change. It's already different than it was when we "retired" from tripping in 2013.


Covid is going to give us a "new normal". And technology is giving us one, too.


"


Thank you Spartan2 for some historical context. I do carry a weather radio. I have not converted to a SAT phone, Inreach, or SPOT. But will put money down that at some point in the future this is inevitable. “The times they are a changin”. Wait a minute...

Are you saying silence is disappearing? NOOOOO!!!! But can we ever turn back? I don’t think so. I don’t like it! I don’t like it! I don’t like the “new normal”!! Give me my silence!!!! :)

JW

 
JWilder
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04/16/2021 05:48AM  
As the decades go by, humans have continued to learn of our mistakes and how our actions impact the environment and/or our health. At one time we didn’t know smoking was bad for us. At one time we dumped untreated raw sewage into our lakes, rivers and streams out of ignorance.

50 years from now we (they) will have learned of something new we have been doing wrong for a long time, and the impact will be detrimental. Right now we don’t know what that is nor can we fathom it. At the current time, we just simply do not know…

JW

 
04/16/2021 06:12AM  
There was an article posted on the board a while ago about global warming. It described the BWCA area as being an "Oak savanna" meaning the pines will be gone in favor of deciduous trees like the south. I hope that's not true but nature and ecology doesn't care what I think.
 
inspector13
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04/16/2021 07:33AM  
TomT: ...It described the BWCA area as being an "Oak savanna" meaning the pines will be gone in favor of deciduous trees like the south. I hope that's not true but nature and ecology doesn't care what I think. "
What! There are no pines in the south?

Outside of Mobile

 
LesliesDad
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04/16/2021 08:05AM  
I miss the canoe rests on portage trails.
 
Wharfrat63
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04/16/2021 08:22AM  
Spartan2: "I think our descendants 50 years from now (that would be when my great-grandchildren, if I have any, would probably be becoming adults) won't go camping at all. They will be so completely engrossed in technology that they won't even know that there IS an outdoors, or think anyone would be crazy enough to spend time there.


And I hope I am wrong."

+1 on that. Can you say Wallee? Bring me my milkshake.

Software will be the demise of the human race. I have been saying that for 20 years and I am a software guy.
 
Savage Voyageur
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04/16/2021 08:38AM  
In 50 years from now people will be using craft that levitates above the ground for transport called a “Electrostatic Magnetic Levitation Craft”, or EMLC. No drinking out of the lake with a Sierra cup, people will just eat a hydration pill every day called a “Hydropill”. No more pit toilets left up there, they will be replaced with a small nuclear powered device called a “DestroyLet” that will vaporize any human waste. No way would you have a fire ring. That would be replaced by a solar powered light and heat emitting device called a “EchoFlame”. No need for paper maps in the future. Before the trip you will have a download of mapping information into your brain embedded chip with every campsite and portage length.
 
PineKnot
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04/16/2021 08:42AM  
inspector13: "TomT: ...It described the BWCA area as being an "Oak savanna" meaning the pines will be gone in favor of deciduous trees like the south. I hope that's not true but nature and ecology doesn't care what I think. "
What! There are no pines in the south?

Outside of Mobile

"


I thought similarly to TomT, then realized we'll all be long gone, as will many generations after us, before the pines disappear. And if it happens, I'd have to change my name!!??

I've never been to Augusta National to watch the Masters in person, but it would not be the same without those pines!!


 
04/16/2021 09:04AM  
I think bear management is going to change. Hanging only works so well. I think that the regulations are going to be going to bear resistant containers on the ground or hanging blue barrels and Ursacks.

A determined bear can get into a blue barrel. Ursacks can also give some reward if a bear gnaws on it for long enough. So I don't think that the FS will allow us to keep those within reach in the future. A very determined bear could potentially get a blue barrel on the ground and eventually break into it, but a bear can also break into a bear vault. They are bear resistant, not bear proof. This would prevent quick and easy meals for the bear, which is what leads to problematic bears that need to be put down.

I'm probably wrong about how it will be implemented but I think that there will be some change in the hanging policy that says that just hanging is no longer good enough.
 
inspector13
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04/16/2021 09:16AM  
PineKnot: "I thought similarly to TomT, then realized we'll all be long gone, as will many generations after us, before the pines disappear. And if it happens, I'd have to change my name!!??"
Just to clarify, I wasn’t diminishing the possibility for a change in the ecosystem. It has been warmer and drier in the past. Particularly, 7000 years ago. And I’ve been planting trees on my property in Lake county that historically grew a little farther south in Minnesota just in case.

 
04/16/2021 10:08AM  
Hopefully we're camping on the Moon and Mars by that point!
 
merlyn
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04/16/2021 11:02AM  
I'm afraid there will no longer be a Boundary Waters as we know it in 50 years. Pollution, over population, global warming, political manipulation and corporate greed show little respect for the" lightly" touched parts of our world. Oh, sure we will still have "wilderness" areas but I doubt they will any thing my generation of canoe trippers would recognize.
Please allow me to explain my rant-- on a walk yesterday in a national forest I had to make a pile of trash to remove later as my small trash bag wouldn't hold it all. Very depressing people just don't seem to give a rats ass.

On a positive note, I found little or no trash or evidence of abuse except for some ax improvements at any of the 30 or more camp sites I stayed at or checked out in my last 3 or 4 BW trips. I guess those videos do work.
 
04/16/2021 11:49AM  
okinaw55: "Spartan2: "I think our descendants 50 years from now (that would be when my great-grandchildren, if I have any, would probably be becoming adults) won't go camping at all. They will be so completely engrossed in technology that they won't even know that there IS an outdoors, or think anyone would be crazy enough to spend time there.



And I hope I am wrong."



Like having IV's deliver your food and nutrients to your body as you lay on a couch and become lost and basically living inside of VR? Think I saw a movie about that once and it was disturbing. Wouldn't surprise me though."

It seems to me that was the premise to The Matrix
 
PineKnot
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04/16/2021 12:01PM  
Captn Tony: "It seems to me that was the premise to The Matrix"

Yeah, turning human bodies into a battery....hey, wonder if in the future one could use himself/herself to run the fish finder?
 
Minnesotian
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04/16/2021 12:20PM  

Regarding camping practices in 50 years...

1. I think all the camping gear will be even lighter. Cuben fiber/dynemma or something even lighter will be the standard for tents, clothing, what have you. Today, we are blown away by the weight people packed in 50 years ago (aluminum canoes, canvas tents) and it will be the same in 50 years.

2. Working remotely will be standard and this will allow people to spend weeks in the outdoors. They will have to work everyday, but with increased satellite/internet coverage, people will be able to spend a lot more time in the outdoors while "beaming" into work everyday. Virtual conferences, like our Zoom of today, will be commonplace.

3. Food storage/preservation will be similar like we have today with Mountain House, but combinations and ease of preparation will be even easier and tastier and last forever almost.

Regarding the environment...

1. Fishing as we know it will be greatly changed. They might be fishing for Asiatic Carp in Basswood by that time, and that might be the only sizeable or legal species that can be fished for depending on how warm the waters get.

2. Moose, wolves, bears, bobcats, lynx, loons and all the animals we associate with the BWCA will be diminished. To see one in the wild in 50 years will be a very rare and special event, even more then today. However, other species will take their place, like deer, cougars and coyotes.

3. As touched upon already, the flora and tree composition of the North Woods will change, especially as more forest fires rip through and the traditional species of White Pine, Jack Pine, birch find it harder to compete against species that are more used to a warmer climate such as oaks and maples, many of which we are already seeing up there in greater numbers.

4. As more liquid water is introduced to the earth system as glaciers melt, I can see lake levels rise, thus portages might get shorter or lakes are even combined.

 
brp
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04/16/2021 02:36PM  
Driving a few hundred miles on fossil fuels to enjoy nature already seems pretty strange. I agree with the thoughts expressed about lead sinkers, and ammo....that should have stopped decades ago.

Microplastics might be a thing. “No nylon clothing allowed in the water. If you need to rinse your nylon clothing, you must do it 200 feet away from shore and drain the water into a latrine”.
 
martoonie
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04/16/2021 06:35PM  
Copper will be needed for all of those proposed electric vehicles and windmills. Copper is going to have to come from someplace, be it near the BWCA or someone else's wilderness. Water quality will be diminished.
 
RunningFox
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04/16/2021 07:02PM  
What are we now doing that future generations. (50 years from now) will hold in disgust? My guesses are:

1) Lead & barbed hooks. Live bait.
2) Driving there with fossil fuels.
3) Plastic clothing etc. (micro plastics in lakes)
4) Crystal meth :)

 
Duckman
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04/16/2021 07:38PM  
merlyn: "I'm afraid there will no longer be a Boundary Waters as we know it in 50 years. Pollution, over population, global warming, political manipulation and corporate greed show little respect for the" lightly" touched parts of our world. Oh, sure we will still have "wilderness" areas but I doubt they will any thing my generation of canoe trippers would recognize.
Please allow me to explain my rant-- on a walk yesterday in a national forest I had to make a pile of trash to remove later as my small trash bag wouldn't hold it all. Very depressing people just don't seem to give a rats ass.


On a positive note, I found little or no trash or evidence of abuse except for some ax improvements at any of the 30 or more camp sites I stayed at or checked out in my last 3 or 4 BW trips. I guess those videos do work. "


I think it’s more likely places like the BDUB or a portion of it will become a no entry bio preserve type place before it ever disappears completely.

But in terms of the large scale environmental changes predictions, I’m betting it will be like the predictions in back to the future.

We didn’t get flying cars and real hoverboards by 2015, and the BDUB will still be here in more or less the same form in 2050 or 2070. But the wilderness will change with time naturally.

We have some family land here in Western Arkansas. Almost all wooded with some pasture for cattle. I had some civil war junkies pass by one time who stopped and talked. News to me was that when troops marched through the area 160 years ago, it was all grassland and prairie.
 
bottomtothetap
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04/17/2021 09:11AM  
Duckman: "merlyn: "I'm afraid there will no longer be a Boundary Waters as we know it in 50 years. Pollution, over population, global warming, political manipulation and corporate greed show little respect for the" lightly" touched parts of our world. Oh, sure we will still have "wilderness" areas but I doubt they will any thing my generation of canoe trippers would recognize.
Please allow me to explain my rant-- on a walk yesterday in a national forest I had to make a pile of trash to remove later as my small trash bag wouldn't hold it all. Very depressing people just don't seem to give a rats ass.



On a positive note, I found little or no trash or evidence of abuse except for some ax improvements at any of the 30 or more camp sites I stayed at or checked out in my last 3 or 4 BW trips. I guess those videos do work. "



I think it’s more likely places like the BDUB or a portion of it will become a no entry bio preserve type place before it ever disappears completely.


But in terms of the large scale environmental changes predictions, I’m betting it will be like the predictions in back to the future.


We didn’t get flying cars and real hoverboards by 2015, and the BDUB will still be here in more or less the same form in 2050 or 2070. But the wilderness will change with time naturally.


We have some family land here in Western Arkansas. Almost all wooded with some pasture for cattle. I had some civil war junkies pass by one time who stopped and talked. News to me was that when troops marched through the area 160 years ago, it was all grassland and prairie."


"No entry bio preserve" presents an interesting philosophy of why to "preserve" any place or environment. I think what we mean by preservation is to manage it as closely that we can to the agreed upon model that provides most enjoyment or benefit to all. That requires a balance that efforts to achieve will constantly produce some kind of debate. If we manage a resource to it's most pertinent existence or beneficial use, then that creates a reason for such existence. Does zero access include no fly-over? Is "no entry" a situation where there is no access to land but one may look at it from the water? Or what? With no entry or zero access, at what point does it matter or not that it is even there? So some future generation can then access it? So there is access but then only to a select few? Kind of like the question about if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there does it make a sound? Did it happen? Does it matter? Also a bit Schrodinger's Cat-like way to think of it.

Of course we would all like to have the BWCA remain how it has been/is being/can be enjoyed by us and others. But if "saving" the resource eliminates all access, then saving it for who? Why?
 
bottomtothetap
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04/17/2021 09:43AM  
merlyn: "I'm afraid there will no longer be a Boundary Waters as we know it in 50 years. Pollution, over population, global warming, political manipulation and corporate greed show little respect for the" lightly" touched parts of our world. Oh, sure we will still have "wilderness" areas but I doubt they will any thing my generation of canoe trippers would recognize.
Please allow me to explain my rant-- on a walk yesterday in a national forest I had to make a pile of trash to remove later as my small trash bag wouldn't hold it all. Very depressing people just don't seem to give a rats ass.


On a positive note, I found little or no trash or evidence of abuse except for some ax improvements at any of the 30 or more camp sites I stayed at or checked out in my last 3 or 4 BW trips. I guess those videos do work. "


I think you are absolutely right there will no longer be a Boundary Waters as we know it in 50 years. But the Boundary Waters that people knew 50 years ago no longer exists today (and in many ways that's a good thing--i.e. piles of cans, motors, trenching around tents, heavy gear/food, etc.) nor did the Boundary waters that existed 100 years ago exist 50 years ago either. And I would expect the BWCA in 100 years will be different from the one 50 years from now.
 
04/17/2021 12:18PM  
Argo: "...what are we doing today on our camping trips that our descendants will be incredulous about in fifty years?"

Fishing? Killing and eating a fish? OMG, how cruel! I can't believe anyone would do that.

What's a battery? And when it was done working, you just threw it out??

You filtered THAT water? And DRANK it? Really?

Great old pictures? Look at that hair! And how thin you were.,, Wow!

You needed paperwork and permits because Quetico was actually in a different country? What was that called?
 
Argo
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04/17/2021 01:43PM  
bobbernumber3: "You needed paperwork and permits because Quetico was actually in a different country? What was that called?"

As of yesterday it is officially known as The Peoples Republic of Canada :)
 
smoke
member (31)member
 
04/17/2021 02:55PM  
Many will be wearing robotic exoskeletons and packing 100 lb packs over portages and paddling daylight to dark without becoming tired. Comfort first will return to the BWCA.
 
mjmkjun
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04/18/2021 06:16AM  
merlyn: "I'm afraid there will no longer be a Boundary Waters as we know it in 50 years. Pollution, over population, global warming, political manipulation and corporate greed show little respect for the" lightly" touched parts of our world. Oh, sure we will still have "wilderness" areas but I doubt they will any thing my generation of canoe trippers would recognize.
Please allow me to explain my rant-- on a walk yesterday in a national forest I had to make a pile of trash to remove later as my small trash bag wouldn't hold it all. Very depressing people just don't seem to give a rats ass.


On a positive note, I found little or no trash or evidence of abuse except for some ax improvements at any of the 30 or more camp sites I stayed at or checked out in my last 3 or 4 BW trips. I guess those videos do work. "

Thumbs-Up!
 
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